Patek hand-wound chronograph owners

[Crazywis]

Does anyone observe the chronograph seconds hand slightly jump sometimes when repeatedly starting the chronograph after stopping it in any position? With the recent 5270P and 5370P incomings I'm especially curious about what the new owners observe?

[ryehn]

Mine seems to not have that slight jump, unless I just can't catch it.

[mooty]

le mania 5070, 3970 and 5970 jump as u described
my 5172, 5170 and 5370 do not

[ButtButt]

My 5172 does not jump when using the chronograph but it does jump around when I'm adjusting the time. I made a post here asking about it a while back I think and the experts here said it's normal for some of these movements.

[Crazywis]

Hmm... my 5270 definitely jumps about once in 3 or 4 tries

[0xalate]

Unlike the 5960s and 5905s, the chronographs mentioned here are all lateral clutched. It's not surprising to occasionally see a jump. The Omega SMP is like that too, but not the (modern) Rolex Daytona - that's a vertical clutch.

https://revolutionwatch.com/rules-ch...ph-engagement/

[bobernet]

Patek's new in house movements have been designed to minimize the potential for a jump as the gear teeth engage, but it’s not been completely eliminated. It can happen on any horizontal / lateral clutch. It was much more pronounced on the Lemania movements of the past.

[Crazywis]

Originally Posted by bobernet

Patek's new in house movements have been designed to minimize the potential for a jump as the gear teeth engage, but it’s not been completely eliminated. It can happen on any horizontal / lateral clutch. It was much more pronounced on the Lemania movements of the past.

Good to know - I was under the impression that the shape and angle of the teeth on the center wheel eliminated the jump.

What about lateral engagement when using an oscillating pinion - still present but less visible?

[bp1000]

My 5270 occasionally jumps, entirely dependent on the position of the teeth as I operate the chrono. It is certainly less pronounced than some of my other chronos.

I know I expect a lot from this watch and I knew that the smoother engagement was suppose to be a thing with this movement, but I'm won over with the instantaneous minute counter and reset action.

[Calatrava r]

Does the jump affect accuracy of the chronograph?

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by bp1000

My 5270 occasionally jumps, entirely dependent on the position of the teeth as I operate the chrono. It is certainly less pronounced than some of my other chronos.

I know I expect a lot from this watch and I knew that the smoother engagement was suppose to be a thing with this movement, but I'm won over with the instantaneous minute counter and reset action.

The smoothest engagement I think is on the Lange. Just like butter. The Patek reset on the 5270, however, is smoother than the Lange.

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Does the jump affect accuracy of the chronograph?

Yes, by fractions of a second, and only on initial start. Once it’s running, this isn’t an issue. It happens when the points of the teeth on one gear hit near the point of the teeth on a different gear. It moves the hand as far forward as the distance between the point and the valley of one gear tooth as the gears fully engage.

No surprise, and a well known side effect of horizontal/lateral engagement. Patek patented a new gear tooth profile which minimizes the impact of this phenomenon. The bigger benefit to the new tooth profiles, though, is reduced wear and tear on the gears.

Good overview on lateral vs vertical clutches https://revolutionwatch.com/rules-ch...ph-engagement/

Oops! Just realized that [mention]0xalate [/mention] already posted this link earlier.


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[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Does the jump affect accuracy of the chronograph?

The jump is made with the help of a heart-shape piece, hence, the energy is smoothly stored while the minute is counted down. When the second hand reaches "0", the small and light minute hand jumps.

Hence, I believe the impact of the "jumping" feature is negligeable as instead of progressively moving from a minute to the other, the same energy makes it move in a single movement.

I'm not a watchmaker but I would think the instantaneous jump on an elaborate date mechanism is very different as more and bigger parts (disks, cam...) are involved (more energy required).

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by Vasco

The jump is made with the help of a heart-shape piece…

Vasco, he’s talking about the second hand jump caused by the engagement of the intermediate wheel and drive wheel, not the instantaneous jump of the minute hand.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by bobernet

Vasco, he’s talking about the second hand jump caused by the engagement of the intermediate wheel and drive wheel, not the instantaneous jump of the minute hand.

Arf indeed, thanks

[bp1000]

I wonder if the fractional inaccuracy is eradicated with the use of the advanced research developments on the 1/10th movement. You would certainly hope so given the difficulty in getting this hyper accurate chrono

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by bp1000

I wonder if the fractional inaccuracy is eradicated with the use of the advanced research developments on the 1/10th movement. You would certainly hope so given the difficulty in getting this hyper accurate chrono

It’s easy to eliminate with a vertical clutch, but they’re somewhat ugly to look at in comparison. ;-) Maybe “less interesting” would be a better way to say it. There’s also a lot of watchmaker skill displayed in a well-tuned horizontal clutch system. Patek has generally always used lateral engagement for their manual wind chronos.

[subtona]

Contrary to others experience…
Yes, my 5170 did exhibit jumping when the chrono was actuated. 1 of the reasons I sold the it.

Noteworthy for me was I recently got the speedy 321 (lemania) and specifically compared the functionality to see if it performed the same way. The 321 performed perfectly and more satisfying (to me) than pateks in house movement.

[bobernet]

The 321 also has a lateral clutch, but with the worse traditional gear design. It is as bad or worse in “jumping” than the Pateks we’ve been discussing. It doesn’t perform “perfectly” unless you somehow got a magic 321 that defies its history as well as basic mechanics.

Search, and you’ll see lots of examples of Speedmasters that jump 2, 5, 10 seconds on engagement. It will also wear out both the drive and intermediate wheel gear teeth much sooner than Patek's in-house movements.


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[subtona]

Originally Posted by bobernet

The 321 also has a lateral clutch, but with the worse traditional gear design. It is as bad or worse in “jumping” than the Pateks we’ve been discussing. It doesn’t perform “perfectly” unless you somehow got a magic 321 that defies its history as well as basic mechanics.

Search, and you’ll see lots of examples of Speedmasters that jump 2, 5, 10 seconds on engagement. It will also wear out both the drive and intermediate wheel gear teeth much sooner than Patek's in-house movements.


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You are speculating. I have operated it and that is my experience

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by subtona

You are speculating. I have operated it and that is my experience

No, that’s how those movements work. Find a single watchmaker who will agree with you that your specific 321 defies the behavior of every single other in existence, and I’ll cheer with you and gladly concede I was wrong. Lateral clutch engagement causes random jumping of the second hand in every example from every manufacturer. It’s a fact, not an opinion.

Or, post a quick video of you starting and stopping the chrono 10 or 15 times in a row. Both you and we will see the jump.


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[Partekular]

Try as I might, I have no jumping issues with my PP 5712 (Arab blue) with its PP in house mechanism.

Out of interest, the Lange 1815 chrono is often compared favourably with the PP 5712. If the Lange is ‘better’ why does it’s price fall so much on resale? (The 414.032 is a gorgeous looking watch).

[Vasco]

I guess that unless there is a system making the 2 connecting wheels properly "synchronizing" (one showing the tooth, the other one showing the gap between 2 teeth), there will always be such observation on a traditional horizontal clutch chronograph.

Even if they reduce the size of the teeth (hence increase their number), the issue will remain.

It's just an imperfect mechanical design.

The 5470 1/10th still uses the horizontal clutching. The vertical clutch is nice but thicker, less spectacular as we don't see it activating as well and on some lower end models, the 2 parts can seize if used permanently over a long while (or a stopped watch stored for a long time with the chronograph activated).

Mechanical imperfections are I guess the charm of these movements :)

[subtona]

Originally Posted by bobernet

No, that’s how those movements work. Find a single watchmaker who will agree with you that your specific 321 defies the behavior of every single other in existence, and I’ll cheer with you and gladly concede I was wrong. Lateral clutch engagement causes random jumping of the second hand in every example from every manufacturer. It’s a fact, not an opinion.

Or, post a quick video of you starting and stopping the chrono 10 or 15 times in a row. Both you and we will see the jump.


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Right after you provide those watchmaker testimonials.

seriously I do not know how to post videos here

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by subtona

Right after you provide those watchmaker testimonials.

seriously I do not know how to post videos here

Sure. Every single article written about lateral clutch vs vertical clutch chronographs describes the behavior and the mechanical reasons why.

I’m not saying every watch exhibits the extreme 5 or 10 second jumps that you sometimes see in videos, but it is statistically impossible for the gears to be perfectly in alignment every time the clutch is engaged. Every time they’re not perfectly aligned, there is some unintended movement of the second hand.

[KBM]

I mean, anyone measuring time intervals with the necessity of extreme precision (fractions of a second on the start of the chronograph) will not or should not be using these watches for that task to begin with. I understand the intellectual argument over this, but find it somewhat amusing that this would be the reason that makes a collector sell one of these pieces.

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by KBM

I mean, anyone measuring time intervals with the necessity of extreme precision (fractions of a second on the start of the chronograph) will not or should not be using these watches for that task to begin with. I understand the intellectual argument over this, but find it somewhat amusing that this would be the reason that makes a collector sell one of these pieces.

I completely agree, especially to downgrade into a movement that has the same problem, only worse.


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[Megalobyte]

It’s ironic that patek’s horizontal clutch “pure” chronos like the 5170 are considered by patek, with pricing that reflects it, higher horology than their more modern vertical clutch movements as found in the 5960/5905 for example.

The reason I believe, is that while the vertical clutch autos are more modern and theoretically “better”, the horizontal clutch manuals exhibit more complexity, demanding more involved and intricate finishing, resulting in a more impressive movement.

I have a 5905 and a 5170. Nothing wrong with the movement in the 5905, but the movement in the 5170 is clearly an example of a higher level of horology.