Patek 6119 vs Lange 1815

[HiBoost]

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Hello all,

I'm coming at this question as someone who has been a watch lover for many years, but has no real experience with truly high end timepieces. The complicated pieces are out of my price range so I find myself looking at the "entry level" models. The Patek 6119R and the Lange 1815 Up/Down strike me as similarly positioned offerings from these two highly regarded brands.

What I'm hoping to get out of this thread is some wisdom from those of you who have many more years of training your eyes to look at such works of art. What details do you see which distinguish these two from one another? When I look at the two, I see a Lange which has some more movement complexity and a Patek which has more case and dial complexity. Is that wrong, am I missing something obvious?

And what about finishing techniques? Both look "very nice" to me, but I lack the experience to see things I'm sure others can pick up on.

Finally, I am eager to hear thoughts on the "value proposition" (if such a thing can be conceived on a $30k+ watch) of the two. I once heard a watch journalist say that Lange puts so much time into their watches that they are not a profitable venture. He went on to say that this was more of a labor of love which was sustained by the broader Richemont group, financially. Is this valid? And if so, then how does a company like Patek, who as far as I know is financially independent, stay afloat (I'm presuming all believe their practices and quality are >= those of Lange)?

Thanks for reading.

[vitalsigns]

Two nice but very different watches, measured by aesthetics.

The Patek is much dressier and has many eye-catching facets, from the Clous de Paris hobnail bezel to the faceted hour markers and hands. The Lange is much more subdued. I would personally find it difficult to wear the Patek in all but fairly dressy occasions while I think the Lange could straddle dress and casual better. Some seem happy to wear the 6119 casually, however, so this may still be an option.

Both are a great size (for me) – and the same size too, so no differential there, although one or the other may appear larger on the wrist due to design choices. Of the two, my sense is that the Patek would appear a bit larger than the Lange due to more information (and an additional subdial) on the Lange’s dial.

While the Patek’s movement is nice, and new to Patek, I’d have to give the clear nod to Lange on this one. The German silver, chased/hand-engraved balance cock, swan’s neck regulator, blued screws and inset gold chatons make for a very visually appealing overall presentation. I’m not so convinced by the architecture of Patek’s new movement and it seems like Patek intentionally chose a more basic architecture to achieve a more cost-effective production. The Patek has a free-sprung balance, while the Lange does not, in case that matters.

Good luck!

[HiBoost]

Thank you for the response. I'm a bit surprised at how formal the Patek seems to appear to you. Stylistically I found it to be almost like a Day-Date on a strap, but with an even more modern flare. The Lange has a more vintage pocket watch look, which perhaps make me think of it as more dressy by default.

This makes me realize that for these less-often-seen watches our minds are perhaps more free to draw their own conclusions. In contrast, something like a Day-Date is so ubiquitous that we've all seen them in both formal and casual settings and thus that guides our impressions.

[vitalsigns]

The hobnail bezel really puts it over the top for me into the dress category. Contrast it with the 5196 which can be worn more casually--at least to my eyes. I agree regarding the pocket watch look of the 1815, but I still think it dresses down more easily than the Patek. Many owners successfully wear the 1815 on a casual strap and it works well. I think a casual strap would contrast unsuccessfully with the 6119. Just my opinions, of course...

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

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Finally, I am eager to hear thoughts on the "value proposition" (if such a thing can be conceived on a $30k+ watch) of the two. I once heard a watch journalist say that Lange puts so much time into their watches that they are not a profitable venture. He went on to say that this was more of a labor of love which was sustained by the broader Richemont group, financially. Is this valid? And if so, then how does a company like Patek, who as far as I know is financially independent, stay afloat (I'm presuming all believe their practices and quality are >= those of Lange)?

Thanks for reading.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=837072

Here is a spread sheet I put together.
Lange has almost 6 times more man hours in a watch than Patek does.
Only a few independents have more time into their watches.

[MILGAUSS88]

If you look at the movement I do not think there is any question.
Lange is superior. Blued screws, gold jewel settings and a hand engraved balance cock.
And just the depth it creates.

If you are talking about the case, then I think it comes down to subjective taste.

I own a few Pateks, unfortunately I do not own an ALS yet.

But I have to agree with Philip Dufour, and I think he is really talking about Patek in this quote:

“When I saw the Datograph, for the first time in the first time, it was the 90’s at Basel and uh, in the window it was a scale 20 movement. I saw that and said wow, look at that. And then I saw the watch in real. It was amazing.
I say the Germans are kicking us. Okay. Now the Swiss are going to respond…. I am still waiting for the response.. Okay.
Because it was just amazing, this chronograph. The way it stands, the way it works, you have a three dimensional view. “
Jan 26, 2020

At 22:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMin3cQkKA

[mario1971]

There was a moment two years ago that I was thinking about the previous version of Calatrava but when I saw Lange Up / Down I must have had it. I have also seen the current version of the 6119 and I can definitely say that I made the right choice. In my opinion, Lange surpasses Calatrava in every respect, it is a more effective watch, it has a wonderful dial, fantastic blue hands, and the finish of the movement - this is real poetry. It is a much more interesting watch that I wear with both shirts and jeans. And with all this, it is not at all conspicuous.

[Vasco]

Hi HiBoost,

That's a very nice project. I personnaly handled the 6119 2 or 3 times and owned a 1815R (second version) in 2010. The lange was my first luxury/high-end watch (whatever we call them) for 2 years. I came to Patek afterwards (from 2012).

Here are what I experienced, with all my own subjectivity (I won't talk about aesthetical appeal).

Patek's case design is usually more interesting than Lange's. Same level of finishing but as Patek's are more elaborate, much more effort is put in them, more diversified compared to flat and regular polished-only surfaces (Lange's rose gold cases are usually polished IIRC, on the contrary to white metals)...

Patek's watches are comfortable. Many Langes aren't but the 1815 is.

I prefer Lange's silver dial sandblasting: more glittering with light, less greyish (even though the 6119's looks more "alive" than other models' I saw in the past).

Patek's markers are more of a nice work than painted numerals from Lange (even if Lange's are very well made and appealing to admire).

Lange's hands (especially subdial hands) edges are smoother. It might be irrelevant here as the 6119 has very interesting facetted hands which have sharper edges by choice.

On the movement side, Lange's maillechort material gets yellow as it ages: I don't like this at all (less visible with a rose gold case), some do, so it's your call.

Blue screws were fun at the beginning but I got fed up very quickly and discovered after a while I prefer when they are not blued. Too many of them.

Lange's edges are better finished at that price level, even if the 1815's is a 3/4 plate which is less interesting to observe than Patek's movement (more open-worked, visible wheels...).

Technically, Patek is bringing interesting, not gimmicky, real evolutions to their movements: accuracy in particular.

Lange's balance wheel screws offer a charming, old school design but it creates drag, which, on a philosophical standpoint, isn't really good timekeeping wise (I imagine it should not be significant).

The same way, Lange's engraved balance cock is great to look at but its setting isn't the most accurate in theory compared to Patek's. Very difficult to be precise on the pressure and especially considering metal temperature variations. But who cares really.

The spreadsheet of Milgauss is interesting but I don't think it is too reliable. The number of employees take into account marketing and other services which vary a lot in size from a brand to the other, especially when included into a group (like Lange which belongs to Richemont). Furthermore, the number of employees might not be spread the same way between design conception and assembling, etc... It is the same for employees dedicated to lower budget watches compared to the ones in charge of higher complications, etc...

This being said, Lange certainly puts more work into movement finishing from what I saw.

In the end HiBoost, I'm glad I started with Lange as it set an excellent level of what very nice finishing is. And it shaped my eyes. I have excellent memories of the 1815R.

Getting a Patek allows also not to loose too much money: sometimes these 30 K watches are out of reach for people who can't afford loosing 5-10 K. Hence the Patek was better on that field. What is the market now? I don't know.

Patek has a strong history, an excellent new movement, very well finished, well designed, very accurate. Patek's case is more interesting. And there is a natural pride in owning one considering the brand's legacy and legitimacy.

The Lange movement is better finished (edges), maybe a little less well conceived on the theoretical level (now this mustn't amount to significant difference in seconds per month really, just a guess there). Overall, it is the kind of watches that, every time you take it from your drawer, you have the "wow" effect because of its finish. You definitely see it is of a very high standard.

Money wise, I would say Patek might be less risky (if it is something important for you).

To you to pick and consider which elements are important or not.

A final thought that you are right to consider, I think it is very difficult to buy without handling watches first. I think it is mandatory.

[HiBoost]

Thank you all for the comments. Some compelling points for both watches!

In the end, I'm sure Vasco is correct that seeing both in person is mandatory. Where I live neither are available. This is bad for such "research". But probably also good as it lowers temptation haha.

[bobernet]

In other head to heads, I would choose Patek. In this one, it is the Lange by a country mile. Neither will hold value on the secondary market, so I’d consider looking for a gently used or grey market example. Good luck with your decision!


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[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by bobernet

In other head to heads, I would choose Patek. In this one, it is the Lange by a country mile. Neither will hold value on the secondary market, so I’d consider looking for a gently used or grey market example. Good luck with your decision!

Do you mean other Lange vs Patek head to heads? Or other brands versus Patek? If the former, that's an interesting comment and would love to hear why Patek wins in those cases but not this one (e.g. do you find this particular Patek ref to not be up to their normal standards, or conversely do you find this particular Lange to be exceptional by their standards? etc)

Thanks!

[Ichiran]

I'm not a big fan of Lange's three-quarter plate and I don't see any extraordinary finishing on both these entry level watches (expected).

On the dial side, it is subjective to each individual's taste. Personally I prefer Lange's aesthetics more with the blue hands.

[jsobral]

If you don't already own a Calatrava, I think it is a quintessecial piece for any collection.

Comparing both watches, I like the Calatrava's case much more. The bezel is beautifull and will play with the light in a stunning way (like the datejust fluted bezel). Also the gold indexes and gold hands are much nicer IMO.

Regarding movement finishing, Lange may have the upper hand, but I would still go Patek.

[SoylentGreenChi]

I pondered this question a lot over the past year, and ended up with several Pateks (5196P, 5227G, 5146G) and one Lange (1815 up/down).

For me, it comes down to aesthetics. Turns out that I prefer the Swiss design language (Patek and Vacheron) vs. Lange. This came as quite a shock. In particular, I prefer Patek cases to those of Lange. Once I started seeing all the Lange cases as looking the same, I couldn’t unsee it. In terms of finishing, most of what I read says that Lange’s are tops in finishing, but I honestly do not have enough horological knowledge to tell the difference. The movement on the up/down looks fabulous to me; same with my 5227 and 5146.

Price retention is with a Patek, in case that is important. In the end, I believe one is unbelievably lucky to have even a single Patek or a single Lange - so good luck, and enjoy!

[thekman]

I would 100% go with the Lange.

[bobernet]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Do you mean other Lange vs Patek head to heads? Or other brands versus Patek? If the former, that's an interesting comment and would love to hear why Patek wins in those cases but not this one (e.g. do you find this particular Patek ref to not be up to their normal standards, or conversely do you find this particular Lange to be exceptional by their standards? etc)

Thanks!

The former. Depends on the specific watches for me.

As one example, the Dato Perpetual is a hockey puck that’s hard to read, the 5270 is perfect.

In this case, the Calatrava with hobnail bezel is overly formal, in my opinion. The Lange has better movement finishing, a case and dial that are flexible enough to dress up or down, etc.

Just my opinions.


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[HiBoost]

Opinions are exactly what I'm after here, so thanks to all for sharing.

I really must see the hobnail in person as that seems to be the key polarizing trait on the Patek. To me it looks amazing in pictures. I don't see it as a formal look, though. But perhaps that's from looking at a Rolex fluted bezel for so long. I equate a detailed/reflective bezel with being a bit flashy, but not particularly formal.

[Vasco]

The hobnail pattern is definitely something very characteristic of the 6119. It makes it more on the traditional/elegant side, even if some folks here have posted a few of them with more casual straps (like Suede, etc...). I invite you to have a look at these pictures as it can help imagining how it could look like in a more dressed-down attire.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Vasco

The hobnail pattern is definitely something very characteristic of the 6119. It makes it more on the traditional/elegant side, even if some folks here have posted a few of them with more casual straps (like Suede, etc...). I invite you to have a look at these pictures as it can help imagining how it could look like in a more dressed-down attire.

Good point. This looks very casual to me...



That of course brings up another decision point. I was leaning more towards the rose gold, but it seems like the white gold would be much easier to make look casual. It's hard for me to get past the sticking point of "if I'm going to pay gold pricing it should look like gold" but perhaps the white gold would be more likely to get worn on a regular basis...

[Calatrava r]

I prefer applied gold indexes which the Patek has, and the Lange does not. Not sure why Lange does not add them on this line. Movement on the Lange is superior to that of the Patek in my view. Patek's generally wear thinner and more elegantly than Langes. Here, I would go with the Lange, and it's added complication.

[AK797]

Lange for me, prefer the front and back, hobnails not really my style.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

I was leaning more towards the rose gold, but it seems like the white gold would be much easier to make look casual. It's hard for me to get past the sticking point of "if I'm going to pay gold pricing it should look like gold" but perhaps the white gold would be more likely to get worn on a regular basis...

I felt like this too when I began in watches: I felt if I paid for gold it was a waste to take something white. But I changed very quickly, leaving both colors at the same level.

Since, I often consider rose gold or white metal in a very different way. I like rose gold but it might be more visible regarding the use (e.g. for work I might favor something more discreet). For something I would wear for instance on week-ends only, I could really appreciate something I find more exciting with colored gold. To each his own but that's a matter to think about.

I loved my 1815R and would not have liked to get a white gold instead. But I wore it 1 or 2 days a week only.

Again, for the Lange, a rose gold metal could help alleviate the contrast with the movement Maillechort's yellowing.

Today, would I get a 3 hand watch like a Calatrava or 1815, I would find it more exciting in rose gold. But that's just me of course.

White metals look indeed more casual in general, even if rose/yellow gold with electric blue straps can be very nice.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by mario1971

There was a moment two years ago that I was thinking about the previous version of Calatrava but when I saw Lange Up / Down I must have had it. I have also seen the current version of the 6119 and I can definitely say that I made the right choice. In my opinion, Lange surpasses Calatrava in every respect, it is a more effective watch, it has a wonderful dial, fantastic blue hands, and the finish of the movement - this is real poetry. It is a much more interesting watch that I wear with both shirts and jeans. And with all this, it is not at all conspicuous…

That’s outstanding

[ts3]

I'd pick the Lange in this competition by a mile.

The 6119 is a mess from a looks perspective in my eyes. Hobnail, rail track with superimposed 5 minute plots, cross hair on the subdial - just too many features that look forced and are trying too hard. It is still a fairly new watch and it is getting lots of love but I'd be surprised if this hotchpotch stands the test of time. The discontinued 5196 as well as earlier hobnail bezel Calatravas such as 3919, 5119, or 5120 had much cleaner designs. Also not a fan of the aesthetics of Patek's new manual movement.

[Gebbeth]

I'm just an A Lange guy. I just think the 1815 is the more aesthetically pleasing watch. And the movement finishing is....I dunno....just superior in my opinion.

[RHJ]

These watches are and will be for ever out of my reach, but I admire the discussion about and this thread represents what I love in TRF. Thanks to all

[beshannon]

I had an older version of the 1815 (40mm) that was larger and I ultimately, reluctantly parted with it.

I am trying to add a dress piece in this style to my collection, I am not sure if either of these are available but I would like to see the 6119 as well as the 1815 in the smaller size of 38.5.

I will keep looking

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

The Patek has a free-sprung balance, while the Lange does not, in case that matters.

As I've continued to read on these models I've found that Lange balances are free-sprung but they endeavored to keep the traditional aesthetic of swan neck. From Watches by SJX:

There is a common misconception that the L093.1, along with many other Lange calibres, is not free-sprung. This misconception appears to stem from the presence of a swan neck fine adjustment device, a feature that, historically, was exclusively used to control the position of a curb-pin regulator.

However, in 2006 Lange introduced the L041.2 in the Richard Lange. The L041.2 was the brand’s first movement to feature a free-sprung balance, but it still had a swan neck fine adjustment system. This was done to maintain continuity with the aesthetics of German watchmaking tradition, while improving the chronometric potential of the movement.

Without a curb-pin regulator to manage, the swan neck was repurposed to control the position of the stud holder, which is the attachment point for the hairspring. Many fine watches have a mobile stud holder to improve the ease with which the beat can be adjusted, so this was a natural and elegant solution.

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Lange has almost 6 times more man hours in a watch than Patek does.
Only a few independents have more time into their watches.

That SJX article I linked above does their own math but comes up with similar ratios for ALS (7 watches per watchmaker per year) and PP (35/maker/year).

Originally Posted by Vasco

Technically, Patek is bringing interesting, not gimmicky, real evolutions to their movements: accuracy in particular.

Do you have any references on the evolutions of this movement? I tried searching for any accuracy info but only found one comment from an owner saying he was disappointed by it as his was losing 7s/day. I did not find anything describing a design trait which should, even theoretically, make it more accurate than the Lange (or any modern, quality movement). Note I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just hungry for more info to read :)



A few other random points that have surprised me:

• Lange doesn't make their cases or dials
• Patek doesn't do any hand finishing on the 30-255
• Both companies offer only a 2 year warranty. Almost everyone is at 5 years and the JLC I purchased last year is 8. For the price involved, and the apparent simplicity of these movements, it seems quite underwhelming to be at 2 years.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

As I've continued to read on these models I've found that Lange balances are free-sprung but they endeavored to keep the traditional aesthetic of swan neck. From Watches by SJX:

True for some Langes, but not all. The Richard Lange series, yes; the new Datographs, yes; the new Lange 1s, yes. The 1815s, no. The key to spotting the difference is the regulating pins, as you can see on the outside of the balance wheel on the 1815s, versus the adjustable masses within the balance wheel, as you can see in the Richard Lange series. I think this is an easy way to spot free-sprung vs. non-free sprung balance wheels.

Note that the SJX article focuses on just one watch, the Richard Lange (and the confusion over the swan's neck regulator), which I believe - but I'm not positive - was the first Lange watch with a free-sprung balance. The SJX article does not state that all Lange balances are free-sprung.

Can you post the reference source for the statement that Patek does no hand finishing on the 30-255? That would be surprising and disappointing (even though as you can tell from my comments above, I much prefer the Lange in this comparison regardless).

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Do you have any references on the evolutions of this movement? I tried searching for any accuracy info but only found one comment from an owner saying he was disappointed by it as his was losing 7s/day. I did not find anything describing a design trait which should, even theoretically, make it more accurate than the Lange (or any modern, quality movement). Note I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just hungry for more info to read :)

I understand, no problem.

I was saying that in general. I've been following quite closely each of the improvement Patek brought to their movements: when the 5235's 31-260 was launched, when the 324 became 26-330; what the 240 brought in 1977 (canon pinion etc...). And especially regarding the Gyromax, the balance wheel with its Spiromax before and after the Advanced Research program (many of these innovations where introduced in the regular models afterwards). The last 5650's Spiromax is roughly Tourbillon-level accuracy, which is quite a statement.

That's why I value Patek very much in that regards, especially from what I read and experience from owners I discussed with.

As often, they don't expand power reserve because they favor time keeping (longer mainspring brings decreasing torque). And we could add how the 28-520 (chronograph with horizontal clutch) was also introduced.

These are just examples witnessing what they usually aim at: improving working efficiency.

It is the same with the last 5470 1/10th of a second in a certain way or the 5236P with its new QP module. Many of the modifications are aiming at lowering frictions, improving wheels meshing and stability.

Some owners mention sometimes a problem that went through the Quality Control. That shouldn't be happening and I asked myself how it could be.

I don't have the answer (and it would be tough to get imho) but I would say that it is more likely to hear about inevitable problems from a 60K pieces production than a 5K one. I've been directly witnessing very messy things from famous Independent watchmakers too...

I'm sure that beside the lack of Breguet overcoil (Original Dato hasn't got it while a 29-535 has) in some models and this swan neck that isn't the most precise to set and maintain (and the regulator pin issue that is a mess to set on the long run), Lange's watches are very accurate as well considering we talk about mechanical watches.

So, I wouldn't put too much importance in this either.

If you like interesting discussions, have a look at this one (if not authorized, please moderators feel free to remove it of course): http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/LangeDebateText.html

Originally Posted by HiBoost

A few other random points that have surprised me:

• Lange doesn't make their cases or dials
• Patek doesn't do any hand finishing on the 30-255
• Both companies offer only a 2 year warranty. Almost everyone is at 5 years and the JLC I purchased last year is 8. For the price involved, and the apparent simplicity of these movements, it seems quite underwhelming to be at 2 years.

Lange's cases are made if I'm correct in Germany, very nicely made, that's not a problem to me. I don't know for the dials but Patek happens to have been a dial maker (Stern Freres) before acquiring Patek in 1932. As I said before, Lange has ravishing sandblasted silvery dials.

As Vitalsigns, I would be very surprised concerning the 30-255's finishing. What happens nowadays is that watchmakers use electric tools to finish the edges: hence, the appreciation difference whether it is fully hand finished, that nearly nobody does today aside of a very few indies and maybe (I don't know, that's just a guess) for higher complications. From what I saw, the 30-255's edge finishing is very good (maybe not as good as Lange's but I would have to check again) and better than a 5712's 240 I could handle many times in the past.