Patek 6119 vs Lange 1815

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

True for some Langes, but not all. The Richard Lange series, yes; the new Datographs, yes; the new Lange 1s, yes. The 1815s, no. The key to spotting the difference is the regulating pins, as you can see on the outside of the balance wheel on the 1815s, versus the adjustable masses within the balance wheel, as you can see in the Richard Lange series. I think this is an easy way to spot free-sprung vs. non-free sprung balance wheels.

Note that the SJX article focuses on just one watch, the Richard Lange (and the confusion over the swan's neck regulator), which I believe - but I'm not positive - was the first Lange watch with a free-sprung balance. The SJX article does not state that all Lange balances are free-sprung.

I did not quote the entire SJX article, but it does go on to say this:

The solution has been rolled out gradually across Lange’s range of movements over the past 15 years, and today curb-pin regulators have all but disappeared from the collection.

This source as well says the L051.1 (what's in the 1815) has a "free sprung balance".

https://professionalwatches.com/a-lange-sohne-l051-1/

as does this article on the 1815:

https://www.europeanwatch.com/blog/a...36-050-review/

Do you have some reference saying that it does not?

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

Can you post the reference source for the statement that Patek does no hand finishing on the 30-255? That would be surprising and disappointing (even though as you can tell from my comments above, I much prefer the Lange in this comparison regardless).

It's certainly nothing official, but there was a discussion on WPS where a user made the comment "...the Patek is not hand finished, only machine finished" and nobody corrected him.

https://www.watchprosite.com/patek-p...8591.13005836/

It was suggested that only the complicated big $$$ pieces are hand finished. I don't know if that is proven or not.

[RoscoPico]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Hi HiBoost,

That's a very nice project. I personnaly handled the 6119 2 or 3 times and owned a 1815R (second version) in 2010. The lange was my first luxury/high-end watch (whatever we call them) for 2 years. I came to Patek afterwards (from 2012).

Here are what I experienced, with all my own subjectivity (I won't talk about aesthetical appeal).

Patek's case design is usually more interesting than Lange's. Same level of finishing but as Patek's are more elaborate, much more effort is put in them, more diversified compared to flat and regular polished-only surfaces (Lange's rose gold cases are usually polished IIRC, on the contrary to white metals)...

Patek's watches are comfortable. Many Langes aren't but the 1815 is.

I prefer Lange's silver dial sandblasting: more glittering with light, less greyish (even though the 6119's looks more "alive" than other models' I saw in the past).

Patek's markers are more of a nice work than painted numerals from Lange (even if Lange's are very well made and appealing to admire).

Lange's hands (especially subdial hands) edges are smoother. It might be irrelevant here as the 6119 has very interesting facetted hands which have sharper edges by choice.

On the movement side, Lange's maillechort material gets yellow as it ages: I don't like this at all (less visible with a rose gold case), some do, so it's your call.

Blue screws were fun at the beginning but I got fed up very quickly and discovered after a while I prefer when they are not blued. Too many of them.

Lange's edges are better finished at that price level, even if the 1815's is a 3/4 plate which is less interesting to observe than Patek's movement (more open-worked, visible wheels...).

Technically, Patek is bringing interesting, not gimmicky, real evolutions to their movements: accuracy in particular.

Lange's balance wheel screws offer a charming, old school design but it creates drag, which, on a philosophical standpoint, isn't really good timekeeping wise (I imagine it should not be significant).

The same way, Lange's engraved balance cock is great to look at but its setting isn't the most accurate in theory compared to Patek's. Very difficult to be precise on the pressure and especially considering metal temperature variations. But who cares really.

The spreadsheet of Milgauss is interesting but I don't think it is too reliable. The number of employees take into account marketing and other services which vary a lot in size from a brand to the other, especially when included into a group (like Lange which belongs to Richemont). Furthermore, the number of employees might not be spread the same way between design conception and assembling, etc... It is the same for employees dedicated to lower budget watches compared to the ones in charge of higher complications, etc...

This being said, Lange certainly puts more work into movement finishing from what I saw.

In the end HiBoost, I'm glad I started with Lange as it set an excellent level of what very nice finishing is. And it shaped my eyes. I have excellent memories of the 1815R.

Getting a Patek allows also not to loose too much money: sometimes these 30 K watches are out of reach for people who can't afford loosing 5-10 K. Hence the Patek was better on that field. What is the market now? I don't know.

Patek has a strong history, an excellent new movement, very well finished, well designed, very accurate. Patek's case is more interesting. And there is a natural pride in owning one considering the brand's legacy and legitimacy.

The Lange movement is better finished (edges), maybe a little less well conceived on the theoretical level (now this mustn't amount to significant difference in seconds per month really, just a guess there). Overall, it is the kind of watches that, every time you take it from your drawer, you have the "wow" effect because of its finish. You definitely see it is of a very high standard.

Money wise, I would say Patek might be less risky (if it is something important for you).

To you to pick and consider which elements are important or not.

A final thought that you are right to consider, I think it is very difficult to buy without handling watches first. I think it is mandatory.

Love this feedback !

For me, simply, the PP is simpler and dressier, but the ALS is leaps ahead overall and a no-brainer choice for me

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Do you have some reference saying that it does not?

I do not, but that has always been my understanding. Interestingly, Lange itself doesn't seem to provide clarity in its movement description on its website. Others at WPS have also said it's free-sprung. In any event, I am happy to be wrong here as that makes the Lange movement even better.

Regarding hand finishing of the Patek movement, I'd want further confirmation, but thanks for the reference. That would be quite the scandal in my mind if nothing on the Patek movement is hand finished.

Cheers,
John

[Dalaruan]

The 6119 is extremely beautiful, but one that doesn't appear great in photo as in real life. The sheer elegance of the 6119 can't be matched, with its curvy silhouette and the balance of elements on the dial

The patek movement is technically superior than the lange no question about it, but we've known for years patek absolutely cut crazy amount of corners especially on entry level models. This new movement could have been a showstopper d but they decided to cut crazy corners its a huge waste of its potential. I'd still look at the patek movement than a movement where the 3/4 plate itself occupied most of the scenery, but to each his own.

[Dalaruan]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

As I've continued to read on these models I've found that Lange balances are free-sprung but they endeavored to keep the traditional aesthetic of swan neck. From Watches by SJX:





That SJX article I linked above does their own math but comes up with similar ratios for ALS (7 watches per watchmaker per year) and PP (35/maker/year).




Do you have any references on the evolutions of this movement? I tried searching for any accuracy info but only found one comment from an owner saying he was disappointed by it as his was losing 7s/day. I did not find anything describing a design trait which should, even theoretically, make it more accurate than the Lange (or any modern, quality movement). Note I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just hungry for more info to read :)



A few other random points that have surprised me:

• Lange doesn't make their cases or dials
• Patek doesn't do any hand finishing on the 30-255
• Both companies offer only a 2 year warranty. Almost everyone is at 5 years and the JLC I purchased last year is 8. For the price involved, and the apparent simplicity of these movements, it seems quite underwhelming to be at 2 years.

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

I do not, but that has always been my understanding. Interestingly, Lange itself doesn't seem to provide clarity in its movement description on its website. Others at WPS have also said it's free-sprung. In any event, I am happy to be wrong here as that makes the Lange movement even better.

Regarding hand finishing of the Patek movement, I'd want further confirmation, but thanks for the reference. That would be quite the scandal in my mind if nothing on the Patek movement is hand finished.

Cheers,
John

Pretty sure it's the norm for patek only to do a hand once over after machine doing 90% of the job
I've always said this, patek milks the entry level buyers (read: anything less than a grand complication) like no tomorrow, but I did succumb to the 6119 after seeing it in person
Anyone who claimed its too cluttered need to see this watch in person, its a miracle how they create a harmony with tnhe aesthetic features put in. If ones an absolute minimalist then yea, it'll be an eyesore, but I for one loved the sophistication but ultimately harmonious design of the dial

[TotoroInFlight]

If you check out Tim Mosso’s review of the 6119G on YouTube (in addition to many of his other Patek reviews), he says the 30-255 is “started by mechanical means but finished by hand.” As far as reliability as a source goes, both he and his company, Watchbox/Govberg, are quite involved as both resellers/ADs of Patek and appear to have a good relationship with the company.

The answer is basically a combination of machine + hand finishing for most Pateks that are not the highest end complications.

[FloridaBill]

Originally Posted by jsobral

If you don't already own a Calatrava, I think it is a quintessecial piece for any collection.

Comparing both watches, I like the Calatrava's case much more. The bezel is beautifull and will play with the light in a stunning way (like the datejust fluted bezel). Also the gold indexes and gold hands are much nicer IMO.

Regarding movement finishing, Lange may have the upper hand, but I would still go Patek.

^^^ I totally agree

[mario1971]

I will add a few words about my UP / Down 234.032. The L051.2 movement with manual winding operates at a frequency of 21,600 Hz, and the second hand always stops at 12 o'clock when the power reserve is exhausted. This makes it very easy to start the sleeping mechanism. For the first three months after the purchase, mine was very precise, deviating less than 1 second / day. Then something happened because it accelerated to + 8s / day. So I sent it to Germany for regulation. He came back after 2 months perfectly adjusted. A year has passed since his return, and he is still accelerating on average + 1s / day.

[Vasco]

About hand or mechanical finishing, it depends on what definition we give. Nowadays, watchmakers often use a mechanical tool that they manipulate by hand.

However, you can have a look at Patek's videos here:https://www.patek.com/en/company/sav...ion-to-details

Take a look at the one called "Hand-finishing the movement components (Caliber CHR 29-535 PS)": you'll see when they use machine and when they use hands. The beginning is CNC (to round off the bridges for instance) but the last finishing is made manually but with a machine (perlage, chamfering, buffing edges). I'm not sure for the Cotes de Geneve.

I don't know what ALS does, but it looks better indeed. However, they don't have the same volumes to manage. I guess that if Patek was producing 5K watches (like ALS), they would do it differently (but the price and availability of a Patek wouldn't be the same).

That's why choosing a brand or another is also about what we are looking for. During your watchmaking journey, your tastes might change as well. We are nerds and appreciate looking at details but those watches work very well and are well finished overall.

Take the one that sings to you and you'll be able to replace it in the future if you feel so. There is no mistake in either brands imho.

Originally Posted by RoscoPico

Love this feedback !

My pleasure :)

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by TotoroInFlight

If you check out Tim Mosso’s review of the 6119G on YouTube (in addition to many of his other Patek reviews), he says the 30-255 is “started by mechanical means but finished by hand.” As far as reliability as a source goes, both he and his company, Watchbox/Govberg, are quite involved as both resellers/ADs of Patek and appear to have a good relationship with the company.

The answer is basically a combination of machine + hand finishing for most Pateks that are not the highest end complications.

Good call. Tim's videos are a great resource, I'll check that out. Definitely a more reliable source than some anonymous guy on WPS :)

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Good call. Tim's videos are a great resource, I'll check that out. Definitely a more reliable source than some anonymous guy on WPS :)

I did watch Tim's video and he says "undoubtedly finished by hand". This, ironically, does introduce some doubt haha. If he knew this for a fact it doesn't seem like he'd phrase it that way. This sounds more like he's looking at it, thinking it looks very nice, and considering it is the likes of Patek he's concluding that it's "undoubtedly" finished by hand. That could be too much reading between the lines on my part, but I guess I'm still not 100% certain either way...

[schoutedeni]

I don't think I would ever be offered a 6119 at an AD, so I went grey for the ALS 1815 up/down and got it for a pretty significant discount over current list. Fantastic dress watch.

[newonos]

love the ab/auf. My grail is the referenzuhr in platinum.

[schoutedeni]

Originally Posted by newonos

love the ab/auf. My grail is the referenzuhr in platinum.

Agreed, but sad that it was 36mm and not 39mm. But smaller watches seem to be making a comeback.

[jw0n]

I find that the strong points of each watch, fill up the weakness of each other. It would be nice to have both in the box, but if I had to choose just one... I would have to go with the 6119 for its more dynamic nature.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by jw0n

I find that the strong points of each watch, fill up the weakness of each other. It would be nice to have both in the box, but if I had to choose just one... I would have to go with the 6119 for its more dynamic nature.

Assuming those are your pics it seems you have definitely found the correct answer - both ;)

Here is another dilemma, perhaps one you specifically can help with. Your gray suede strap shows how versatile the white gold 6119 can be. And something about the Lange seems more casual to begin with, even in rose gold. But my issue is that I'm really drawn to the rose gold 6119. If you could only have one, and it had to be rose gold, would you still go for the 6119? Or is it only the white gold 6119 which you feel could stand alone?

[jw0n]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Assuming those are your pics it seems you have definitely found the correct answer - both ;)

Here is another dilemma, perhaps one you specifically can help with. Your gray suede strap shows how versatile the white gold 6119 can be. And something about the Lange seems more casual to begin with, even in rose gold. But my issue is that I'm really drawn to the rose gold 6119. If you could only have one, and it had to be rose gold, would you still go for the 6119? Or is it only the white gold 6119 which you feel could stand alone?

Yes, that is my arm and those are my pictures :-)

Do you mean RG in either form of the 6119 or the 1815 Lange? The 6119R is, for me, a little less dynamic (in the sense that the dial doesn’t so much change in different lighting — and why I went with 6119G in the first place). You’re right; the Lange feels more casual while the PP feels more dressy. But I also feel it is easier to dress down the 6119 than dress up the Lange.

So for me; 6119G, 6119R then 1815.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by jw0n

But I also feel it is easier to dress down the 6119 than dress up the Lange.

I think I agree with that 100% in the case of the 6119G... it's the 6119R that I'm trying to convince myself of. That gray suede strap is such a perfect pairing for your G, but I can't really picture something equivalent for the R. Maybe just a more casual brown strap? Black rubber possibly? I don't know... but I feel like that's the main question I'd need to resolve for my own needs. If the 6119R only has the one look, no matter how amazing I think it is, that's going to be a different proposition than that switch hitter you have ;)




On the topic of movement finishing... I reached out to Tim Mosso and he was gracious enough to write me a long reply. He indicated that the 6119's movement is absolutely, without question, hand finished. He's louped it himself and can see the telltale signs. So perhaps some of the "PP really sticks it to the entry level buyers" stuff is a bit exaggerated.

[Johnnyhayward]

Great taste and I agree, getting both is the best solution to these problems.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Originally Posted by jw0n

I find that the strong points of each watch, fill up the weakness of each other. It would be nice to have both in the box, but if I had to choose just one... I would have to go with the 6119 for its more dynamic nature.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

On the topic of movement finishing... I reached out to Tim Mosso and he was gracious enough to write me a long reply. He indicated that the 6119's movement is absolutely, without question, hand finished. He's louped it himself and can see the telltale signs. So perhaps some of the "PP really sticks it to the entry level buyers" stuff is a bit exaggerated.

Thanks for the feedback.

About the 6119R and straps, if it was for myself, I would go to a strap maker and have a full look at their offerings (even the ones I don't consider in the first place). If you're too far away from a shop, I would consider Suede (even if I think it may not age very well) with:
Electric blue (works very well with yellow and rose gold)
From dark to medium to light grey
Caramel/beige

The choice of the right nuance might make the difference from nice to... not nice.

Ostrich or Shark materials might look nice (although require a little time to get used to) and more casual.

[SudiYunus]

Lange, I’m a watch lover that knows only a little about watches, my likeness mostly from visual design, so my call might not be valid

[Dalaruan]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Assuming those are your pics it seems you have definitely found the correct answer - both ;)

Here is another dilemma, perhaps one you specifically can help with. Your gray suede strap shows how versatile the white gold 6119 can be. And something about the Lange seems more casual to begin with, even in rose gold. But my issue is that I'm really drawn to the rose gold 6119. If you could only have one, and it had to be rose gold, would you still go for the 6119? Or is it only the white gold 6119 which you feel could stand alone?

Definitely get the rg 6119. It's less versatile yes, but its beauty is just unrivalled. Change it to a burgundy alligator strap and you're good to go.

[nickorette]

I have the 1815 Up/Down, great timepiece, will never part with it. I love the classic pocket watch inspired design.

I like the idea of the 6119 but not a fan of how they laid out the dial, I'm bothered by the dots behind the indices, the railroad track and the sector on the small seconds, whole thing lacks balance and proportion in my eyes. I love the movement though, finally they are producing movements relative to the case size. My biggest pet peeve is Patek's insistence on using tiny movements made in the 70's for <35mm watches in modern 40mm+ cases.

[ECLS18]

Originally Posted by ts3

I'd pick the Lange in this competition by a mile.

The 6119 is a mess from a looks perspective in my eyes. Hobnail, rail track with superimposed 5 minute plots, cross hair on the subdial - just too many features that look forced and are trying too hard. It is still a fairly new watch and it is getting lots of love but I'd be surprised if this hotchpotch stands the test of time. The discontinued 5196 as well as earlier hobnail bezel Calatravas such as 3919, 5119, or 5120 had much cleaner designs. Also not a fan of the aesthetics of Patek's new manual movement.

I agree. I was waiting for the new calatrava to launch. Once i saw the 6119 i got a 5196r.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by ECLS18

I agree. I was waiting for the new calatrava to launch. Once i saw the 6119 i got a 5196r.

I can understand how people might like the 5196P better but to call the 6119 “a mess”is simply nuts of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but seems crazy to me … how is the 5196R that much better better ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DoctorA]

I am biased! I have the G and I love how the dial looks and how dressy it is, which to me is the point of a three hand dial with the second subdial
The ALS is beautiful but it’s a totally different look and to me not a dress watch!

[Rollieo]

Originally Posted by nickorette

I have the 1815 Up/Down, great timepiece, will never part with it. I love the classic pocket watch inspired design.

I like the idea of the 6119 but not a fan of how they laid out the dial, I'm bothered by the dots behind the indices, the railroad track and the sector on the small seconds, whole thing lacks balance and proportion in my eyes. I love the movement though, finally they are producing movements relative to the case size. My biggest pet peeve is Patek's insistence on using tiny movements made in the 70's for <35mm watches in modern 40mm+ cases.

The 6119 has a new movement that was specifically designed for it. I’m sure Patek will use the movement elsewhere, but this was one of the biggest points for me was a movement that filled the case.

[Rollieo]

To the OP - I looked at both watches before I bought the 6119R. I was already leaning in the direction of Patek, but I wanted to consider other watches before spending $30k.

Without getting into any technical details, I just felt that the 6119R was a much better looking watch than the Lange. I actually preferred the size of the Lange and the finishing of the movement seemed much more refined than Patek, but the Patek case really spoke to me. I also wanted a really clean dial (I don’t understand what people are saying when there’s too much going on). The hobnail bezel initially also was a negative for me, but it’s became and still is a huge positive now. It really is such a elegant piece of work that dresses up the watch.

As far as demand goes, whether it’s “manufactured” or not, it seems the Patek 6119 is just WAY more in demand than Lange 1815. I waited about 6 months for the Patek after registering interest with 2 ADs, one which I had to put a deposit (funnily I ended up getting it from the other AD first that didn’t require a deposit, and then got my deposit back from the other AD). The Lange 1815 on the other hand, I’ve walked into multiple ADs and it’s sitting in the case.

Lastly - what dial gives this kind of reflection?

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Rollieo

To the OP - I looked at both watches before I bought the 6119R. I was already leaning in the direction of Patek, but I wanted to consider other watches before spending $30k.



Without getting into any technical details, I just felt that the 6119R was a much better looking watch than the Lange. I actually preferred the size of the Lange and the finishing of the movement seemed much more refined than Patek, but the Patek case really spoke to me. I also wanted a really clean dial (I don’t understand what people are saying when there’s too much going on). The hobnail bezel initially also was a negative for me, but it’s became and still is a huge positive now. It really is such a elegant piece of work that dresses up the watch.



As far as demand goes, whether it’s “manufactured” or not, it seems the Patek 6119 is just WAY more in demand than Lange 1815. I waited about 6 months for the Patek after registering interest with 2 ADs, one which I had to put a deposit (funnily I ended up getting it from the other AD first that didn’t require a deposit, and then got my deposit back from the other AD). The Lange 1815 on the other hand, I’ve walked into multiple ADs and it’s sitting in the case.



Lastly - what dial gives this kind of reflection?

Wow, that is quite the reflection. I thought the dot array from the Datejust fluted bezel was fun to project, but with a 6119 I'd have to clear my schedule and really dive in haha.

Also, you said "without getting into technical details", but by all means feel free to do so. That's precisely the kind of thing I'm here for

[Jmaster]

Originally Posted by nickorette

I have the 1815 Up/Down, great timepiece, will never part with it. I love the classic pocket watch inspired design.

I like the idea of the 6119 but not a fan of how they laid out the dial, I'm bothered by the dots behind the indices, the railroad track and the sector on the small seconds, whole thing lacks balance and proportion in my eyes. I love the movement though, finally they are producing movements relative to the case size. My biggest pet peeve is Patek's insistence on using tiny movements made in the 70's for <35mm watches in modern 40mm+ cases.

Don’t meant to derail the conversation, but to me, the 6119 dial design strike a better balance between dressy and dress down than the old 5169. When I was considering buying a PP annual calendar, I picked the 5146 even though the 5396 is a newer and probably “better” investment. Part of that decision was because I feel the 5146 is more rounded and less dressy, and the rail track with the lume dot behind the indices give me that view. You can see that part of the 5146 is very similar to the 6119. I think that’s that’s what Patek is going for, while the old 5169 or 5227 has a more dressy design of indices and dots.

Going back to the OP’s original comparison. If I were to pick between these two, I think the 6119 is more “sophisticated” watch. While the 1815 is a very nice watch, it’s a different design language that’s very Lange. Mind you, I appreciate more the features and movement finishing than the design. I personally like watches with power reserve, which is actually a useful complication, so I would have picked the 1815 Up/Down if I was considering for myself. However, just reading OP’s comments and your preferences, my impression of that you prefer something a little more sophisticated.

We all pick our own path…