Grey Market Sub - Is it authentic?

[BillAckmanOfficial]

Hey guys, new member here (although I have been lurking these forums for a while now).

Long story short, these past 3 years have been very challenging for me, as I have been incredibly busy at work and studying on weeknights, and I think now would be a good time for me to treat myself. I have been thinking about purchasing my first Rolex for just over 3 years now and I've had no success with ADs.

As such, I am now considering the grey market. I came across an 114060 sub (2019 model) on Facebook Marketplace. The guy is based in my city (Canada) and the watch supposedly comes with box & papers. He's asking the equivalent of US$12,000.

I'm seriously considering it, but I'm also very scared of purchasing a fake. I've stared at the pictures (hereby attached) for a while trying to spot signs of it being a replica or anything fishy. Can you guys spot any red flag(s) in the attached pictures?

How can I authenticate this watch?

[Nick9]

I would rather stick pins in my eyes than try to buy the world’s most frequently faked watch from a stranger on Facebook.

There are plenty of outstanding and reputable grey market dealers, here and elsewhere. There is a vetted marketplace on the Canadian Watch Collector site.

Even if the watch in the picture checks out, there are umpteen other ways you could be scammed.

No reputation; no sale. The Golden Rule.

By the way, good on you to treat yourself.

[tiktoktime]

Pictures look good, but always have it inspected somewhere. If anything maybe have him meet at a jewelers shop that you can source and trust.

[BillAckmanOfficial]

Originally Posted by tiktoktime

Pictures look good, but always have it inspected somewhere. If anything maybe have him meet at a jewelers shop that you can source and trust.

Appreciate the reply. I don't have any relationship or prior history with any jeweler. Do you think that's a favor I could ask a random jeweler (or maybe offer to pay them for a quick inspection)? Or is the authentication process a lenghty one?

[Equity]

You can’t authenticate any of these watches with a picture online and anyone that tells you they can are lying. The fakes are too good now. The obvious fakes, are obvious.

Buy from a trusted seller if you can’t source from the AD. It’s not worth it to take the chance. Ever.

Why waste your time trying to prove to yourself something is real?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[214270Explorer]

If it is not easy to meet up with the seller at a watch technician who can VERIFY a genuine Rolex - - - - - - - - - you should take a hard pass.

You do not even know (right?) that he even owns the watch pictured. Scams abound.

Risk not worth it. There are other, much better, safer avenues to get your watch.
(e.g the several well known, brick-&-mortar trustworthy Gray Market dealers.)
DAVIDSW, TAKUYA, etc.

DO NOT WIRE MONEY TO A PERSON. EVER. NEVER EVER.
Wiring funds is OK for the gray markets mentioned above.

You are a newbie here and we all want you to be safe !!!!!

[zaydans]

I wouldn’t buy anything of significant value from any social media related site. All the scammers are on there. Why bother trying to filter them out? Go straight to a reputable grey here and pay the premium if you don’t want to wait for one at retail. Yes you might pay more but much more likely you’ll have a better experience. Just my opinion of course but as we all say buy the seller!!

[joli160]

I don’t buy from private persons

[Gemalto]

You will need better pictures. All fakes (even the post 2020 superclones) can be identified via pictures.

I have some issues with the accessories. The hang tag looks fake. Try to get high res pictures of the dial, rehaut (serial number area), clap code and bezel.

I will be able to tell you if the watch is real.

[1William]

Do yourself a favor and buy from a reputable Grey Dealer. I would say AD but we all understand that route does not work for most. It might cost a bit more but it will be authentic and the dealer will stand behind the watch.

[CJS57]

Fake. Rehaut is way out of alignment with the minute marks. Even the Super fakes don't have this right as of now.

[BillAckmanOfficial]

What if I was to meet the private seller in a jewellery, and have the owner verify the authenticity of the watch? Is this still considered sketchy?

Going with this route would enable me to avoid paying sales taxes (which are almost 15% in Canada), and also avoid paying import duties if buying through Chrono24 (which can be hefty).

[supernova]

Originally Posted by BillAckmanOfficial

What if I was to meet the private seller in a jewellery, and have the owner verify the authenticity of the watch? Is this still considered sketchy?

Going with this route would enable me to avoid paying sales taxes (which are almost 15% in Canada), and also avoid paying import duties if buying through Chrono24 (which can be hefty).

That would be your best bet to have it verified by a dealer before handing over the cash. As even if the pics are of a good watch, what you receive on the day may be different if you are not trained to spot a fake.

[BillAckmanOfficial]

Originally Posted by supernova

That would be your best bet to have it verified by a dealer before handing over the cash. As even if the pics are of a good watch, what you receive on the day may be different if you are not trained to spot a fake.

Apologies for the back-to-back questions, but would an AD be willing to provide such authentication services on the day of the deal? Or should I approach another jeweller/dealer (non-AD)? I'd be willing to pay a jeweller or even an AD for those services, but I'm not sure if that's even something they can do.

[Nick9]

Some authorized dealers, in some cities, will do authentications, sometimes. Some will not, and so you need to check in advance with the AD on availability of this service, and costs.

If it’s a good fake, the average jeweller would be as clueless as a random passerby you could stop on the street.

Almost all the guys who lose big money to scammers start out by looking at a “great deal” where they can somehow spend less than buying from a reputable source.

Once again, there are reputable and vetted Canadian sellers on CWC. No import duties, likely no tax.

[Gemalto]

Originally Posted by BillAckmanOfficial

Apologies for the back-to-back questions, but would an AD be willing to provide such authentication services on the day of the deal? Or should I approach another jeweller/dealer (non-AD)? I'd be willing to pay a jeweller or even an AD for those services, but I'm not sure if that's even something they can do.

You should consider choosing a jeweler who is trained in spotting superclone watches. ADs only sell real watches, they don’t need ultimate knowledge on the replica industry. Grey dealers who buy watches from private individuals need to have all proper tools and skills to authenticate a watch. Otherwise they’d be out of business pretty soon considering the superficial quality of the best fake watches around…

[asiparks]

You're already going to too much trouble.
Superclone movements are good enough to fool average/mediocre jewelers these days. And many jewelers simply won't want the liability that comes with removing the watch back, or later finding out that some component has been replaced with a fake - see the thread on the main forum about the fake movement swapped into an otherwise genuine watch....

is the watch fake ? can't tell from these pics- the rehaut is no more misaligned than you might find on any genuine Rolex- plenty of threads/pics on these and other forums. But it's not like you can't just steal photos from legit sellers...
Absolutely you could meet a stranger carrying $12k in cash, and maybe you'll make it to the arranged meeting point...

There are trusted sellers on this forum that will probably come close to $12k and you will have no doubts about authenticity...

[Gab27]

As other members have noted, this is just not a good idea. I mean this in the kindest of ways, but please think about how many things could go wrong in this situation, and how some of these things could be even worse than winding up with a fake watch.

There are numerous areas of potential concern. As another member noted, the rehaut engraving does not appear to be aligned correctly. Additionally, the extremely high level of shine on the links of the Oyster bracelet seems a bit unusual. Also, the colors of the bezel numbers look to be extremely white. (Both of these could be a result of the pic though.)

DavidSW and HQMilton both have 114060s in stock for less than this listing, and with them you don't have to worry about getting a fake (or getting shot.)

[PBJ1925]

Agreed, a couple trusted sellers have the 114060s around the 12k mark. They maybe slightly older in terms of warranty date but well worth the piece of mind.

[TomLou]

Outside an AD
No matter who is selling me a new or used modern Rolex ..I always authenticate at RSC

[Harry-57]

The only way of getting it authenticated is by an accredited Rolex technician. My AD has one on site. They have authenticated two grey purchases for me free of charge. If they had charged, I would have paid.

However, as per the common theme now emerging on this thread, an AD authentication is something that you should not need to have to prove the watch is genuine. It's more a belt and braces formality. If you can't be sure of the authenticity until you have it opened, you should find another seller. You appear to be going to some lengths to do the seller a favour. It should be the other way round.

Personally, I would look for another seller. A sales tax hike and possible duties should be factored into the budget. Short cuts can bleed you rather badly!

[dannyp]

Perhaps someone can make out the name of the dealer on the warranty card? Maybe they'd be willing to do an authentication?

[cajunron]

Buy the seller.

[Gemalto]

Guys you really need to improve your your suggestions. This watch is very likely to be genuine, yet people don’t want the OP to inspect the watch.

Just get the watch checked, everything looks good, full set is absolutely correct, warranry card looks good. Bracelet clasp is 100% genuine. No need to pay 2000$ premium for a davidsw authenticated watch. There are superclones of this watch, but nothing points to that direction. Rehaut engraving is spot on, SELs are good, hands are genuine.

[Andad]

Looks good.

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by CJS57

Fake. Rehaut is way out of alignment with the minute marks. Even the Super fakes don't have this right as of now.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by 214270Explorer

If it is not easy to meet up with the seller at a watch technician who can VERIFY a genuine Rolex - - - - - - - - - you should take a hard pass.

You do not even know (right?) that he even owns the watch pictured. Scams abound.

Risk not worth it. There are other, much better, safer avenues to get your watch.
(e.g the several well known, brick-&-mortar trustworthy Gray Market dealers.)
DAVIDSW, TAKUYA, etc.

DO NOT WIRE MONEY TO A PERSON. EVER. NEVER EVER.
Wiring funds is OK for the gray markets mentioned above.

You are a newbie here and we all want you to be safe !!!!!

OP, the best recommendation (imho) for you.

[Rori]

Originally Posted by saxo3

OP, the best recommendation (imho) for you.

I agree with the above. How can we possibly know the pictures posted are the ones of the actual watch you'll receive. Scams are countless...
Stay away of that type of deals. Find a grey dealer where you can visit, see the watch and be able to returned it to in case something goes wrong.

[BillAckmanOfficial]

Really appreciate everyone's feedback.

I'm nowhere near to pulling the trigger on this watch. I'm just exploring the possibility of buying from a private seller. This option can be significantly cheaper than buying from an official grey dealer, since it avoids paying close to 15% in sales taxes and import duties (if buying from outside of Canada), which can also amount to over 1k.

I don't think I would purchase this watch without having it authenticated first. Do you guys know where I can have a watch authenticated? Is this something that an AD would be willing to do (i.e., actually open the watch and have a look)? I called a grey market dealer last week and they said they don't do any authentication anymore, because they don't want the corresponding liability (saying a watch is authentic when it turns out not to be).

Again, thanks everyone.

[214270Explorer]

What you said about gray market liability also applies to AD's.
They also cannot be bothered, and why should they.
You CAN send a watch to Rolex Service for a service evaluation. They would at least let you know if real/fake by their
required service response, BUT it may cost you some bucks.
Find an "authorized Rolex independent repair shop" if you can. That is your best bet.