Succumbing to hype? Patek vs. F.P. Journe

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I like the rose gold guilloché dial of the FPJ QP but bizarrely my AD has not seen the delivery of most FPJ for a long time. I will get it if it is available. I find the rose gold of the FPJ very desirable, and am a big fan of guilloché work.

Attachment 1240984

They are not Guiloché, they are stamped. And that’s one thing I find very disappointing in the brand. Urban Jorgensen, for example, are far less expensive and have fully guilloché engraved dials.

[Hub6152]

And just to add that any of the automatic movement models are not really the full FPJ dna since he only developed them to add options for buyers (and reliability is an issue with them as well).

Proper FPJ is manual wind.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

They are not Guiloché, they are stamped. And that’s one thing I find very disappointing in the brand. Urban Jorgensen, for example, are far less expensive and have fully guilloché engraved dials.

Their website says it is Guiloché.

https://www.fpjourne.com/en/collecti...me-perpetuel-0

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Their website says it is Guiloché.

https://www.fpjourne.com/en/collecti...me-perpetuel-0

Sadly misleading!! By the way I have owned an FPJ.

[jcoltrane]

I purchased a few FPJ long before the price/hype explosion, but when I reach for a dress watch, a Patek goes on my wrist 99% of the time. I really enjoy the innovation and execution of the FPJ's, but I see them more as an art piece than a time piece.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

Sadly misleading!! By the way I have owned an FPJ.

Pardon me if I got it wrong. But isn’t guilloché a noun for the pattern but it does not imply how it was made?

I read that most dials from FPJ are stamped except for the high end models. I just confirmed with my AD that on the TV, it is engraved. The finishing on the TV is also supposed to be done at a different level compared to the other models.

For intricate dial, I would move on to Voutilainen.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Pardon me if I got it wrong. But isn’t guilloché a noun for the pattern but it does not imply how it was made?

I read that most dials from FPJ are stamped except for the high end models. I just confirmed with my AD that on the TV, it is engraved. The finishing on the TV is also supposed to be done at a different level compared to the other models.

For intricate dial, I would move on to Voutilainen.

The type of pattern here is Clous De Paris.

Guilloché is the varied pattern of crossing or interlaced lines giving a decorative effect.

I have yet to see any photograph of an FPJ dial being engraved on a rose engine and one would have expected that to be a part of their marketing were it actually the case.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

Sadly misleading!! By the way I have owned an FPJ.

Originally Posted by llngoc

Pardon me if I got it wrong. But isn’t guilloché a noun for the pattern but it does not imply how it was made?

I read that most dials from FPJ are stamped except for the high end models. I just confirmed with my AD that on the TV, it is engraved. The finishing on the TV is also supposed to be done at a different level compared to the other models.

For intricate dial, I would move on to Voutilainen.

Thanks! Interesting topic. I have read the different guilloché from the Hour Glass link below. It says there are the more complex manually-patterned guilloché versus "computer numerical control (CNC) machining that are capable of automatically stamping and cutting seemingly guilloché patterns on watch dials in minutes compared to days when done by a guillochéur."

I'm not sure if the guilloché on the FP Journe is manual or CNC but maybe they have different ones for watches at different price categories?

https://www.thehourglass.com/horolog...-of-guilloche/

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks! Interesting topic. I have read the different guilloché from the Hour Glass link below. It says there are the more complex manually-patterned guilloché versus "computer numerical control (CNC) machining that are capable of automatically stamping and cutting seemingly guilloché patterns on watch dials in minutes compared to days when done by a guillochéur."

I'm not sure if the guilloché on the FP Journe is manual or CNC but maybe they have different ones for watches at different price categories?

https://www.thehourglass.com/horolog...-of-guilloche/

Thanks for the interesting read. Learn something everyday

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Love to see you join the bandwagon

Thanks mate. I have been eyeing FPJ for a long time but I was always told by AD they don't receive much pieces

By the way does FP Journe accept deposit? I just met my AD and he said he will look out for me but they did not request for any deposit. I remember they do in the past.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by llngoc

thanks for the interesting read. Learn something everyday

+1

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks mate. I have been eyeing FPJ for a long time but I was always told by AD they don't receive much pieces

By the way does FP Journe accept deposit? I just met my AD and he said he will look out for me but they did not request for any deposit. I remember they do in the past.

My AD in Europe asked for a 20% deposit but for application piece, it would be 30%.

And the US Boutique did not ask for a deposit and they told me once the watch is ready and is expected to be one month out, they will take a deposit then. I am making my first purchase through the boutique so others can verify.

It is probably different from AD to AD but boutique should be consistent. (??) Maybe you can contact the boutique close by too? I feel that building a relationship with boutique may have its advantage too. One day, maybe they will offer me a Chronometre Bleu or a Black edition. (Dreaming here :-)

[azizu]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

They are not Guiloché, they are stamped. And that’s one thing I find very disappointing in the brand. Urban Jorgensen, for example, are far less expensive and have fully guilloché engraved dials.

for a: clous de paris or guilloché or tapisserie dial to be stamped by a high end brand is really disapointing.
that is why i parted ways with my VC overseas 2nd Gen chronograph
that dial should be produced on a pantograph only...the way AP does it

[azizu]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

You've exactly identified my dilemma. And you're right that the prices of the PP watches I'm considering run quite the gamut. I'd be leaning towards a PC vs AC, but since I don't like the idea of a manual wind PC, the PCC is not really something on my radar.

I significantly prefer the dials of the FPJ watches over the PP options, but the finish, history and longevity of PP is compelling. The struggle is whether to buy a watch that I perhaps like slightly less aesthetically but has a better history/finish over a watch that is the reverse. I also am, as you mentioned, a bit put off by the pushing of FPJ in the secondary market. I buy assuming I will hold onto my watches for life, so "value" is sort of irrelevant, but I also don't want to buy into the next Frank Muller.

The 5320G is such a great watch, It has a unique style in the current a recent catalog. it is one that could be dressed up or down which is hard to do with 5327, 5160, 5236 or the late 5159

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by azizu

The 5320G is such a great watch, It has a unique style in the current a recent catalog. it is one that could be dressed up or down which is hard to do with 5327, 5160, 5236 or the late 5159

Agreed. I wear shorts and jeans with it and it does not look out of place. I think once I get a new strap to dress it down, it will be even more fitting to my lifestyle.

I just wish the 240 based movement is used here but of course it would be a different dial then. (I will wait for the 5740 here)

[vandyologist]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I just wish the 240 based movement is used here but of course it would be a different dial then. (I will wait for the 5740 here)

Nah, 324 is perfect on this. The center seconds are very important to this watch.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by vandyologist

Nah, 324 is perfect on this. The center seconds are very important to this watch.

That is true and the aperture windows are what makes this watch special.

But the 240 movement just feels more refined with the micro rotor.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by azizu

for a: clous de paris or guilloché or tapisserie dial to be stamped by a high end brand is really disapointing.
that is why i parted ways with my VC overseas 2nd Gen chronograph
that dial should be produced on a pantograph only...the way AP does it

It’s actually one of several reasons why I sold my FPJ as well. I’m much happier with the Patek that I have as the replacement for it.

[azizu]

Originally Posted by vandyologist

Nah, 324 is perfect on this. The center seconds are very important to this watch.

i agree, seeing the center seconds on that watch makes it feel alive...i love it
it also pays tribute to the ref. 1591

[azizu]

Originally Posted by llngoc

That is true and the aperture windows are what makes this watch special.

But the 240 movement just feels more refined with the micro rotor.

the aperture windows are true PP PC DNA, that easily tips the scale towards the 5320 in front of any current PP PC

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

They are not Guiloché, they are stamped. And that’s one thing I find very disappointing in the brand. Urban Jorgensen, for example, are far less expensive and have fully guilloché engraved dials.

FPJ is amazing because the original founder & entrepreneur is still running the brand and has put out some really cool engineering. His designs are instantly recognizable in the best way possible. I visited the boutique in NYC in 2019 and they were very nice to talk to, and I got to check out a few pieces!

IMO, at 2019 used prices, they were a no-brainer. You could pick up a Resonance for like..$50k/$60k from a reputable used dealer like WatchBox.

Now that they are far more, I don't think I'd be ok spending that much because of things like Hub pointed out. The stamped "guilloche" and generally weaker finish work makes it difficult to justify.

If they ever fall back down price wise, I'd definitely pick up a Resonance or Chronometre Optimum.

[subtona]

Both are best all around choices available.
I could make an argument for either and then switch.

Good luck in deciding and acquiring... looking forward to your incoming.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by subtona

Both are best all around choices available.
I could make an argument for either and then switch.

Good luck in deciding and acquiring... looking forward to your incoming.

To me. It is like going to a 3 star Japanese restaurant vs a French one. It is really a personal preference but both are close to the best at what their targets are. PP is classic and FPJ is more technical and artistic at the same time.

I love Japanese food but cannot only have Japanese meal every time I dine out.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

FPJ is amazing because the original founder & entrepreneur is still running the brand and has put out some really cool engineering. His designs are instantly recognizable in the best way possible. I visited the boutique in NYC in 2019 and they were very nice to talk to, and I got to check out a few pieces!

IMO, at 2019 used prices, they were a no-brainer. You could pick up a Resonance for like..$50k/$60k from a reputable used dealer like WatchBox.

Now that they are far more, I don't think I'd be ok spending that much because of things like Hub pointed out. The stamped "guilloche" and generally weaker finish work makes it difficult to justify.

If they ever fall back down price wise, I'd definitely pick up a Resonance or Chronometre Optimum.

I totally agree about the man. His story and philosophy are the things that drew me to his brand, and I even had the great fortune to actually meet him (and he even took off his prototype horizontal tourbillon and passed it to me when I asked him what he was wearing!). But actually my watch wasn’t reliable, it would randomly stop and was terribly inaccurate and that meant it would need to spend quite some time away being fixed!

And funny you mention Watchbox - I purchased it from them (they have a Hong Kong branch) as a 2 month old flipped piece. It was largely FPJ himself that was partly the reason WBox was even created as he didn’t like that Govberg was selling preowned alongside new so WBox was created to separate them. And now WBox control the FPJ market. Interestingly I’m told that WBox are establishing an outlet in mainland China that will allow them to dump a lot of inventory and possibly that will bring prices down. That’s what I’ve be told by some knowledgable collectors here anyway.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by llngoc

To me. It is like going to a 3 star Japanese restaurant vs a French one. It is really a personal preference but both are close to the best at what their targets are. PP is classic and FPJ is more technical and artistic at the same time.

I love Japanese food but cannot only have Japanese meal every time I dine out.

I can work with that analogy


Truth be told I let my fpj go and replaced with a 5711 and 5164. Love the resonance and Chrono bleu but they were not as equipped to be a daily as the PP for my needs.


Given the opportunity I could find a place for a 38mm tourbillon fpj… sadly I’m pretty sure that ship has passed. :)

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by subtona

I can work with that analogy


Truth be told I let my fpj go and replaced with a 5711 and 5164. Love the resonance and Chrono bleu but they were not as equipped to be a daily as the PP for my needs.


Given the opportunity I could find a place for a 38mm tourbillon fpj… sadly I’m pretty sure that ship has passed. :)

I will never let go of my 5711 nor the Resonance. For daily wear, 5711 is definitely a better fit. The Resonance is a little mental exercise every time for me to set the time as it pains me to see the minute hands not in complete sync.

The 38mm TN, sigh… Saw one on FPJ’s site with brass movement and the price was shocking. The 38mm is the perfect size and aesthetic IMO.

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by jcoltrane

…FPJ's, but I see them more as an art piece than a time piece.

I agree with this perspective. FPJ make a seemingly endlessly changing variety of interesting looking watches but however hard I try to tempt myself I always return to the simple, elegant, unassuming, unpretentious (if that’s not too strong a word) Blue Chronometer. That FPJ model is perfection in my book. A lot of the rest of their collection tries too hard. I like a wristwatch that is a wristwatch, not a mishmash of off-set dials and overly complicated twiddles. I like to actually see the time and the other data, day, date, month moon, phase at a glance as easily as I can on the PP 5320G. Sometimes the essence of a watch is too cluttered for me and the essential ingredients of a watch seem lost in some FPJ’s beautiful designs.

It is interesting to read the more experienced collectors views about quality and finish. I can see why some might be taken by the endless variety of face designs and rising prices of a niche manufacturer but my personal taste does not involve investment considerations.

One last question - how good are FPJ at repairing watches which are long in the tooth? With such ever changing mechanisms, unlike PP, is there a problem with parts? That’s one good thing about PP, they don’t come up with an endless series of new parts so are reliable in this department for the long term collector.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I will never let go of my 5711 nor the Resonance. For daily wear, 5711 is definitely a better fit. The Resonance is a little mental exercise every time for me to set the time as it pains me to see the minute hands not in complete sync.

The 38mm TN, sigh… Saw one on FPJ’s site with brass movement and the price was shocking. The 38mm is the perfect size and aesthetic IMO.

Spot on. Seeing the resonance out of sync was unbearable for me. Wearing the 38mm resonance in sync was my penultimate watch experience. It will be the highlight of my watch collecting memories.

[fsprow]

I had two FPJ's, now gone. I never quite got used to the hard to read dials, but the killer was the poor timekeeping. Each, after returns for service, never did better than 10 seconds per day - I'm not obsessed with timekeeping, but this did not cut it.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by fsprow

I had two FPJ's, now gone. I never quite got used to the hard to read dials, but the killer was the poor timekeeping. Each, after returns for service, never did better than 10 seconds per day - I'm not obsessed with timekeeping, but this did not cut it.

Knock on wood. My RQ is keeping good time as of now. Probably no more than 10 seconds off per week.