Basic questions about redials

[Eingram141]

Hi I am new to the board and full of new-guy questions. I am a vintage diver fan and looking towards my first Rolex purchase. I have been reading as much as I can find on the matter to make sure I can recognize a good deal from a bad, improperly restored piece. Ill keep this concise as I have read through a lot of old posts but just would like some clarification. To keep this simple (for me) I am only talking about vintage Submariners (or dwellers but probably put of my price range), buying and/or restoring and retaining as much value as possible.

1. "Restored" and "Redials" are when a 3rd party completely strips a dial down to bare metal and repaints their best version or what it used to be right? Thats obviously unacceptable as a real-mccoy now. But if Rolex does it or if Bob Ridley does it then thats ok? (Assuming Rolex didnt swap out the dial with the WG indices dial)

2. Redials are bad because you can falsify that the watch as more valuable. Like taking a 5513 and redialing and adding a "Tiffany & Co." line or repaiting a line or two in Red? What about buying a authentic 5513 with a bad redial job (bargain) and sending it to Bob Ridely for a good redial job, would I be doing the watch (and myself) a service?

3. Buying an 80s or older Sub from a boutique that sells new Tudors like Tourbillon, does that make it pretty safe that the Rolex has been checked out by them and is not redialed?

I am not looking to collect or sell. I am just looking to have a 5513,12,1680,or 00 that is appropriate in vintage appearance and that I can post pictures of here not in shame. All input is appreciated and if I am off base or asking the wrong questions please let me know to the best way to fulfil the goal in the previous sentence. Thank you.

[MorningTundra]

I think you may be confusing refinishing with redialing...

Replacing a water damaged dial with an authentic Rolex service replacement is not necessary "bad" or worse than trying to correct the damaged original by refinishing

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[Tools]

]. . .
1. "Restored" and "Redials" are when a 3rd party completely strips a dial down to bare metal and repaints their best version or what it used to be right? Thats obviously unacceptable as a real-mccoy now. But if Rolex does it or if Bob Ridley does it then thats ok? (Assuming Rolex didnt swap out the dial with the WG indices dial)

No, not really. A partial restoration of a damaged, rare, dial is preferable to a refinished dial. A proper service replacement is also preferable over a refinished dial. Any of these do affect value on collector watches but may not affect a relatively common watch. A replacement of a damaged dial, beyond repair, can increase value of it in damaged condition

2. Redials are bad because you can falsify that the watch as more valuable. Like taking a 5513 and redialing and adding a "Tiffany & Co." line or repaiting a line or two in Red? What about buying a authentic 5513 with a bad redial job (bargain) and sending it to Bob Ridely for a good redial job, would I be doing the watch (and myself) a service?

Refinished dials can never be original or authentic and good ones are only acceptable when a correct replacement is unavailable. A refinished dial with "Tiffany & Co" added to a non-Tiffany watch is simply fraud.

3. Buying an 80s or older Sub from a boutique that sells new Tudors like Tourbillon, does that make it pretty safe that the Rolex has been checked out by them and is not redialed?

Not really. A Sales outlet is just that, and they seldom can justify disassembling a watch to look for authentic parts nor would they really know if a dial originally came on a watch or not. The only way to have a watch "checked out" is to personally send it into an RSC or have complete, documented, provenance

[Gecko10]

Bob Ridley refinishes dials???? Huh!

[MorningTundra]

It saddens me that the highly skilled art of restoration and refinishing has acquired such a negative reputation


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[BrandonH79]

Originally Posted by MorningTundra

It saddens me that the highly skilled art of restoration and refinishing has acquired such a negative reputation


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Blame the butchers, tricksters and straight out thieves for this. It isn't just perception that has changed. A watch that looks like it was buried underground for 50 years is now sometimes worth more than one that has been tastefully restored. This is largely to do with, in my opinion, all of the shenanigans in the restoration business.

[chessebj]

Originally Posted by MorningTundra

It saddens me that the highly skilled art of restoration and refinishing has acquired such a negative reputation

Most of them really seem to deserve that bad reputation.

[MorningTundra]

Originally Posted by chessebj

Most of them really seem to deserve that bad reputation.

I agree most suck...

Occasionally you come across something that does justice to the original watch.


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[CaveDweller]

Restored – re-finished – re-painted – the descriptions are endless, and often misused

I have two Rolexes: Firstly, an ’88 DJ, (30 years old), which I’ve owned from new. Steel with a black face, the lume on the hands and dial (which are all original) are starting to take on a light tan colour, which some would describe as “patina”, but as it’s so nice and even, it’s quite pleasant to look at. The black face isn’t susceptible to “aging” as such, and as no water has ever got in there, the dial is basically looking the same way that it came from the show room. Very pleased with the way this watch has turned out – though, as a daily wearer over 30 years, that has been more luck than judgement ……

The second watch is a 6605 which I purchased earlier this year. Dated to 1957 (my birth year), it had undergone a complete restoration, including the “re-painted” dial. As the dial was “off white” it would have been more prone to degradation over the 60 years of life, and as it’s presented as a “dress watch”, it would probably have needed it. I’ve seen examples of the same watch with the same style of dial in such bad condition I’d be embarrassed to wear it. The watch was advertised as “mint”, a description it deserved, came fully serviced, and I was happy to pay around £1000 over the odds for that particular watch. If you’re talking about it as an investment, the watch will probably reflect the price I paid over the years, whereas if I’d bought a lesser example, (the “rot” having already settled in), I would have done a lot worse …….. https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=521061

Now to your problem, which falls somewhere between the two.

When considering a sports watch such as the Submariner, or even the GMT, in my opinion (and it is only an opinion), the last thing you want is a watch that has lume on the hands that don’t match the dial, or a dial that doesn’t match the “expected” patina. The trouble is, that to purchase such a watch, (one that has all the parts totally original and “cooked” equally), in the world of “sport watches”, that comes at a price. A 30 year old DJ in that condition doesn’t command a premium, but a Submariner probably will.

If you get a re-finished dial (on a sub), it will bug the heck out of you every time you look at it (or it would bug me anyway) – and if the dial and hands were absolute rubbish (on a Sub, or a 6605), the same would apply.

So, as you can see, the “rules” change depending on the type of watch ……

My advice is this: If you can find the watch you’re looking for (applying the criteria above), get it and be happy. But if it’s out of your price range, don’t. Save a little more money, keep looking, and don’t get greedy – let the watch come to you.

You have the perfect opportunity to make an expensive mistake – just as you have the opportunity to make a wise choice.

It’s a bit like crossing the road – look twice – and choose wisely ………

[R.W.T.]

I will state this...having used most of the known refinishers in the US...they are as good as the last good dial you got from them....nothing more.

Why the inconsistency I'm not sure.

I just worked on a watch from the UK that belongs to a friend. Obviously it's a redial but MAN if you could get that quality in the states on a regular basis...

When I have to send a dial out for refinishing it's a rather hold your breath process...and as you open the package you try not to wince..hoping it will be okay...and that doesn't matter if you are paying the premium refinishing company price or the smaller operation price...you just never know what to expect...and that...you see is a big part of the problem. Sometimes there is no option because you simply can't find an original dial...but say I'm sending a customer's dial for refinishing...I have some responsibility and they luckily are out of the loop...and don't have to deal with trying to get it done over again....I don't mark up outsourced work at this time...so if I tell somebody it's gonna cost X...and then it has to be done over again...generally if it is a legitimate issue the dial companies will take another pass on the house...but you've still got to pay to ship it the second time..and ship it back...it's hard to go to the customer and say...well...guess what...I mean most people are fairly understanding...but you never like to have to do that. If it doesn't get done right the second time...then...I may have to switch refinishers...so then...I've still got to pay the first one and now...maybe the second one. With any outsourcing of work, that is where having a good rapport with the business that is doing the job really comes into play. If you work with someone regularly and you have a relationship with them, they are a lot more apt to go the extra mile for you in a crunch.

The fielding of all of this is the thing that the customers don't realize that on our end we have to go through. It takes a lot of time and effort to stay on top of all of that. I'm sure some people build a margin into the overall cost of the job to cover their extra time and any errors that might occur.

Taking a watch apart and cleaning it and putting it back together requires skills for sure...juggling the other bits of the process in some cases...is an aspect that hardly anyone outside of the trade ever thinks about.

Mostly as a vintage enthusiast, you want the watch to look great for the customer. You want them to realize that they are definitely going to have a refinished dial...but that they can look at that watch and still get a wow or a least satisfaction in their heart and mind.

This is one of the best redials I've ever seen. It was done by Kirk Rich about 8 years ago. My personal watch.

[chessebj]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I will state this...having used most of the known refinishers in the US...they are as good as the last good dial you got from them....nothing more.

Why the inconsistency I'm not sure.

I just worked on a watch from the UK that belongs to a friend. Obviously it's a redial but MAN if you could get that quality in the states on a regular basis...

When I have to send a dial out for refinishing it's a rather hold your breath process...and as you open the package you try not to wince..hoping it will be okay...and that doesn't matter if you are paying the premium refinishing company price or the smaller operation price...you just never know what to expect...and that...you see is a big part of the problem. Sometimes there is no option because you simply can't find an original dial...but say I'm sending a customer's dial for refinishing...I have some responsibility and they luckily are out of the loop...and don't have to deal with trying to get it done over again....I don't mark up outsourced work at this time...so if I tell somebody it's gonna cost X...and then it has to be done over again...generally if it is a legitimate issue the dial companies will take another pass on the house...but you've still got to pay to ship it the second time..and ship it back...it's hard to go to the customer and say...well...guess what...I mean most people are fairly understanding...but you never like to have to do that. If it doesn't get done right the second time...then...I may have to switch refinishers...so then...I've still got to pay the first one and now...maybe the second one. With any outsourcing of work, that is where having a good rapport with the business that is doing the job really comes into play. If you work with someone regularly and you have a relationship with them, they are a lot more apt to go the extra mile for you in a crunch.

The fielding of all of this is the thing that the customers don't realize that on our end we have to go through. It takes a lot of time and effort to stay on top of all of that. I'm sure some people build a margin into the overall cost of the job to cover their extra time and any errors that might occur.

Taking a watch apart and cleaning it and putting it back together requires skills for sure...juggling the other bits of the process in some cases...is an aspect that hardly anyone outside of the trade ever thinks about.

Mostly as a vintage enthusiast, you want the watch to look great for the customer. You want them to realize that they are definitely going to have a refinished dial...but that they can look at that watch and still get a wow or a least satisfaction in their heart and mind.

This is one of the best redials I've ever seen. It was done by Kirk Rich about 8 years ago. My personal watch.

If only that was the standard!

[motoikkyu]

Tastes and fashions change. I hate poorly repainted dials. But a really ugly original dial, I don't feel like wearing that watch. Not everyone regards wear and damage on a watch dial as "patina". I personally reserve that term for evenly aged and toned lume-plots or chapters, and dials that have evenly changed color.

I have many repainted dials in my collection. Some I purchased that way, some I had re-painted BETTER because they had been repainted badly. One was an original dial that had literally no lettering or original finish on it and was no rarity.

Having said that, I can't imagine buying a Rolex watch with a predominantly black dial like a Submariner or a GMT that has been refinished. There are so many fine original and service dials available, and there's the issue with the color of the hands matching the dial markers, etc. But, if the price was very, very attractive, I'd buy the watch and find an appropriate dial.

[MorningTundra]

Is there a professional definition of a redial. Say, from the NAWCC? I couldn't find one...


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[R.W.T.]

I think the term has always been refinished dial.

It has been stripped and completely repainted to look like it was originally.

That can certainly vary in quality.

Redial sounds like a term someone shortened and it means a lot of different things to different people. :-)

[Gecko10]

Originally Posted by MorningTundra

It saddens me that the highly skilled art of restoration and refinishing has acquired such a negative reputation


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I agree 100%.

[motoikkyu]

I do differentiate between repainted original dials (yes, Mr. Taylor, you are correct, they do much more than repaint --weld/solder new feet, bang out dents, plate indices, etc.) and aftermarket dials. The value scale, in my twisted world goes: Original factory dial>factory service dial> excellent reFINISHED dial> unattractive/poor original dial> poorly refinished dial. I've learned to respect a good repaint and despise a poor one, but the really ugly original dials are VERY hard to sell: no one wants them but a purist on a budget, or the guy who has a better version of that precise dial sitting on a shelf.