I'm really starting to go off Panerai

[argee1977]

I'm getting a bit disheartened by Panerai these days, in my mind i have a list of what i want in a watch and Panerai do some of these, but the prices now are getting way out of hand, when i look at a 233 or 270 i honestly can't put that kind of money into a watch like Panerai, they're in a price range that has some of the master watchmakers models and i'm really not that impressed with the P2002 movement for the price.

Have Panerai started to price themselves out of a lot of peoples price range, for a relatively new watch company selling pretty basic stuff they seem to have put a hell of a premium on their watches, over here in the UK you're starting out at around £3000 for a basic Panerai with a basic ETA movement and no bells or whistles, this means they're sitting at the same price point as some of the SS Rolex models, Omega and a few other companies who offer good watches. You then move upto the nicer Panerai watches and they're just sitting at unbelievable prices these days, i liked the 212 and 213 but again a watch that is an ETA based model with extra features is priced at the same level as the likes of a Rolex Daytona, JLC Master and a host of other top end watches.

So are Panerai really worth it these days, or are they going to come to an abrupt halt soon due to this pricing structure and the lack of any real innovation in the low/middle range of their collection, yes they do some lovely watches, my personal favourites being the 275/311/317 range but again in the UK the basic SS 275 is up at over £10000, that's just a ridiculous amount and only really available to those with very deep pockets. I feel that the lack of any real innovation or upping of quality to the lower/mid range will start to reduce sales, you can keep sticking prices up but if you're not upping the quality then the product goes stale, and i think Panerai are getting to that point now

[Trurolexer]

Well, you're right. But for now I'm in LOVE with this things.

[xbox]

I hear your concerns

The ti model I want is around £4000, but I can't help thinking about the relative cost versus performance of the movement I'm getting

[Randy]

Panerai nice watch but a bit overpriced, wear a Panerai. Invest in Rolex or Patek, IMO Rolex will hold value much better than Panerai.

[mfer]

You're buying the design (which they have patents on - crown guard).

How much does it cost to make an Omega, Rolex, Breitling, etc.

The mark up on these things is ridiculous!!!! Buy it b/c you are passionate about it, love it, want to stare at it and above all wear it! It is hard to price out value.

The good news, your Panerai will hold it's value

[argee1977]

Originally Posted by mfer

You're buying the design (which they have patents on - crown guard).

How much does it cost to make an Omega, Rolex, Breitling, etc.

The mark up on these things is ridiculous!!!! Buy it b/c you are passionate about it, love it, want to stare at it and above all wear it! It is hard to price out value.

The good news, your Panerai will hold it's value

I'm not too bothered about value, it's the lack of real innovation within the low to mid range for Panerai, they don't seem to be doing anything with this in the last 5 years. The top of the range stuff seems to be getting new materials, movements and styles but everything below is just a case of reissuing the same stuff year on year.

With everyone else things drip feed into the lower ranges, a new movement comes out and the old movement moves down the payscale, new materials means the older ones are used more often, but with Panerai it doesn't seem to be happening, and that's pretty off putting when the price range of the low to mid level PAMs has some serious competition.

[alohanakoni]

Originally Posted by Trurolexer

Well, you're right. But for now I'm in LOVE with this things.

[mfer]

Originally Posted by argee1977

I'm not too bothered about value, it's the lack of real innovation within the low to mid range for Panerai, they don't seem to be doing anything with this in the last 5 years. The top of the range stuff seems to be getting new materials, movements and styles but everything below is just a case of reissuing the same stuff year on year.

With everyone else things drip feed into the lower ranges, a new movement comes out and the old movement moves down the payscale, new materials means the older ones are used more often, but with Panerai it doesn't seem to be happening, and that's pretty off putting when the price range of the low to mid level PAMs has some serious competition.

I understand where you are coming from. I'd never buy their premium complications b/c they are so expensive and there are many watches that I want that are over 15k. The reason I like them is b/c they are simple. If I want a complication, I'll look elsewhere outside of Panerai. If I want a historic, fun, stylish, simple watch, I'll get a Panerai base or Marina.

[argee1977]

Originally Posted by mfer

I understand where you are coming from. I'd never buy their premium complications b/c they are so expensive and there are many watches that I want that are over 15k. The reason I like them is b/c they are simple. If I want a complication, I'll look elsewhere outside of Panerai. If I want a historic, fun, stylish, simple watch, I'll get a Panerai base or Marina.

Yeah, i couldn't afford their complications either, but in reality they're not that complicated, it's a case of 3 barrels to get an 8/10 day power reserve, not really the most requested thing to most (especially with PAM historical all being manuals!). I'm also not 100% convinced with the new movements, a lot of discussion on the lack of accuracy, especially if it's run down to certain levels.

As for the marina and base models, that is what i started looking at, but i just can't justify spending £3000 ($5000) on a watch that is a basic handwind ETA with a SS case, it's just madness, yes the crown guard is all Panerai, but is it really worth the excess?

[xbox]

Originally Posted by mfer

The mark up on these things is ridiculous!!!! Buy it b/c you are passionate about it, love it, want to stare at it and above all wear it!

I totally hear you...

Like the brand - check!
Love the look - check!
Love the feel - check!

Just to have a mechanism on par...... I have even considered an OP XIV (JLC 8-day) movement Radiomir for this very reason, but then I would need to sacrifice the look/feel of the ti Luminor

[niels74]

i have to agree im a big Pan fan, but very much agree with the price rainge slightly said being high, especially for the done up ETA movements, there rock solid but still you can find these in mid range watches.
i get the idea that Pan is trying to move itself up in the market with expensive marketing and expensive pricing, the in house movements are indeed priced in a range that comes close to AP, JLC & RLX. it would be nice to see a little move inovation or make the inhouse movements more availlable. the mid range pricing for Pan indeed lets you buy some pretty good other top brand watches with in house movements.

Gr
Niels.

[argee1977]

Originally Posted by niels74

i have to agree im a big Pan fan, but very much agree with the price rainge slightly said being high, especially for the done up ETA movements, there rock solid but still you can find these in mid range watches.
i get the idea that Pan is trying to move itself up in the market with expensive marketing and expensive pricing, the in house movements are indeed priced in a range that comes close to AP, JLC & RLX. it would be nice to see a little move inovation or make the inhouse movements more availlable. the mid range pricing for Pan indeed lets you buy some pretty good other top brand watches with in house movements.

Gr
Niels.

I'm not against paying for the goods, yes $5000 can get you a lot more, but Panerai have a following, i just think they need to build on that instead of ripping people off, it's the little things that get me, my PAM is a 5 year old El Primero movement chrono, Panerai just released a new 40mm chrono and i was pretty shocked to see it having an ETA movement, twin subdials (instead of 3), no date feature and just a real lack of quality, that's not progress to me. The other thing that annoyed me was the bracelets, the rumour being that the older, better bracelets were discontinued due to the cost of making them, well the overall cost of buying has gone through the roof and they're making cost cuttings, how the hell does that work?

As for the midrange stuff, Richemont own JLC as well, why not put some of their movements into the mid range PAMs, they've done it before and it would at least break the PAM range into 3, basic ETA based watches, mid range PAM modified JLC range watches and higher end PAM in-house movements.

[mfer]

Well, I'm pulling in the big guns, (yeah, that is you Padi!) to say that ETA is not junk!

A mod here, who definately knows his had this to say yesterday in another thread. I would try to summarize, but he said it perfectly. Thanks Padi!

Originally Posted by padi56

Sorry cannot agree with you, there are many modern day watches with excellent ETA movements,a lot of people think the ETA is a inferior movement which it is not.The Ulysse Nardin marine chronometers have always been highly regarded watch, but it is a little known fact that for years, they were fitted with a hi-beat version (36000 BPH) of the ETA 2824-2, UN calibre NB11QU.

Sometime I hear comments like "such an expensive watch and only an ETA movement inside ". Words like these give the impression that an ETA movement is of lower quality.It should be the other way around, people should say "Well, it has a excellent ETA movement inside this watch, but the price of this watch is astonishingly high".And dont forget they still make and sell around five million movements a year.Lets not forget that ETA is the largest manufacture in Switzerland, because they make everything, in-house only too. And even Rolex relied on ETA Nivarox for escapement hairsprings for the last 40 odd years.


I have a special regard for the Unitas 6497/8 this movement has not basically changed now for over 50 years,and is capable of COSC standards,and very forgiving in its servicing or lack of.A truly great workhouse movement that has powered many high end watches Panerai for one but many others.

This is short list of outstanding movements that should all easily achieve a daily consistency of five seconds or better on the wrist.ETA 2892-A2, ETA 2824/2, ETA 7750,Unitas6497/8,Omega 2500, JLC 889/2 , JLC 960, all of the current Rolex calibers, Longines 990 (Lemania 8815) used by Patek, PP 215, PP 240, Zenith 400,Zenith 670, GP 3100 plus there are many more.

[argee1977]

Originally Posted by mfer

Well, I'm pulling in the big guns, (yeah, that is you Padi!) to say that ETA is not junk!

A mod here, who definately knows his had this to say yesterday in another thread. I would try to summarize, but he said it perfectly. Thanks Padi!

Ah, don't get me wrong, ETA movements vary in quality and complexity, Panerai do get some good ETA models, i also posted on that thread to give my view and i stated that ETA movements that are regulated are just as accurate as others.

My problem is that Panerai aren't doing anything else, Panerai by itself may be a small company in the watch world, but it is part of Richemont, so altogether it's quite a large company and has access to a lot of information and technology that others don't have, so why do they continue to use ETA movements in their mid range watches, when they could get their hands on JLC or work on a JLC movement to produce a new OP movement?

As i said, the lower range with the ETA is fine, but innovation and progress has to start showing through a bit, the historic range can get away with it as it is tagged as such, but the likes of the 1950s range and others that are up there at over $10000 with ETA movements is a bit too much for me, especially with the capabilities i've discussed above. Rolex moved away from buying in movements because they produce a million watches a year, so over time they pay off the costs and their movements in terms of actual cost per unit is probably similar to a bought in ETA by Panerai, so again i wouldn't discount ETA on cost value either, it's just showing the buyer that the $10000 watch they buy has a little more thought than just throwing together one of their cases, with one of their bought in movements, and to progress.

Also from what i hear Panerai don't even decorate the ETA movements in-house, they sub-contact this out as well, which again is just a sign that it's not really putting the effort in.

[mfer]

Just for the record, I'm not arguing with you. It may look like it, I just like discussing this topic. Gotta love TRF!

I think/guess that in a few years when ETA movements aren't readily available, Panerai is going to go all JLC movements. I think JLC will become the more common movements. The price will increase on all Panerai's big time at that point. This is just a guess from other Paneristi on the upcoming ETA removal. Things will be interesting for sure.

[argee1977]

I hope so, i am in that middle ground, the 233 is just about affordable but i'd be more comfortable with a 212/213, but i feel that if i buy a £6000 watch i'd like to know that some effort and time was put into it, i have a Sub LV and it's not got the greatest finish and movement, but i know that over time Rolex have developed that movement, looked into other materials and come up with the design, whereas with the Panerai i just feel that they've taken on the legacy panerai look and stuck in a bought in movement.

But knowing me i'll whinge and moan about it then go out and buy one anyway

[C. Davidson]

I have a Tissot Savonnette mechanical pocket watch.

It lists for $495

Its movement? An ETA 6498.

[B. Doggy]

I've always figured that what Panerai is doing right now in terms of pricing and their movements is part of their overall business strategy. Think about it: Start out out making nice watches, develop a following and begin to grow your Company. This almost has to be done with outsourced movements to begin with; maybe a few in-house as you learn how the mechanics work with the watch itself. Prices increase as the product catches on. Eventually as the firm learns how to really master the in-house movements, you will have incredibly high prices. Panerai will probably one day have everything in-house.

This is only my two cents, but I wouldn't doubt this is what's going on. I read in another thread someone saying they were trying to be a PP. Perhaps this is true?

[toph]

i just got mine today- thanks guys- way to make a man feel good

I know what you mean and even if it is overpriced ( i agree on the movement even though they do modify the 6497/8 and it is COSC) but they are still very high quality overall and I am very very happy.

[C. Davidson]

Originally Posted by toph

i just got mine today- thanks guys- way to make a man feel good

I know what you mean and even if it is overpriced ( i agree on the movement even though they do modify the 6497/8 and it is COSC) but they are still very high quality overall and I am very very happy.

Congratulations Toph! The long wait is over....any cool pics yet?

[toph]

Originally Posted by C. Davidson

Congratulations Toph! The long wait is over....any cool pics yet?

Chris
Yes here is the thread, the pics are my usual mediocrity
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=58773

[Vito_Corleone]

I agree that they are overpriced and you don't get enough for the money... but I still had to have one. It's sad.

[brainbizz]

My opinion is it cost what it cost. Sure I hate to see price increases but that just means that the ones i have are worth more. I can see Panerai drifting away from producing many mid range models and having low and high models in larger quantities. I have no idea if this is a good or bad idea but see them loosing some loyal customers but as long as demand is high they may not care.

[TswaneNguni]

I love price increases ..... because the one's I already own also gets worth more.

A positive way of looking at it.

....oh and the economic slump ?? Dont worry,its not going to last forever !!

[rnmkr61]

exactly

[argee1977]

I've seen a few really nice watches come up for sale lately at crazy prices, and i've seen others priced over the top and still selling, i guess the arse hasn't fallen out of the watch market yet but it is slowly creeping in.

I guess if Panerai keep selling the ETA based watches then my El Primero will keep going up in value, how much are they worth now, can i buy a Hublot with it

[argee1977]

Just thought there, is Panerai in the same type of bracket as Hublot, or are they more of the new Jacob and Co?

[mike]

Originally Posted by mfer

Well, I'm pulling in the big guns, (yeah, that is you Padi!) to say that ETA is not junk!

A mod here, who definately knows his had this to say yesterday in another thread. I would try to summarize, but he said it perfectly. Thanks Padi!

Spot on Mik. Padi does know his stuff. Pams are expensive (no arguement from me), but value retention is always a consideration. Some very expensive pieces lose a lot of the value on the secondary market.

I'm seriously considering a manual wind for the next one.
The history of the brand combined with such a loyal customer base can't be overlooked...as well as the fact they are just plain fun/nice watches.

[argee1977]

Originally Posted by argee1977

Just thought there, is Panerai in the same type of bracket as Hublot, or are they more of the new Jacob and Co?

Dammit, nobody fell for this one

[dman]

For 10K on the secondary market I would buy a 233 over a Daytona everyday of the week and 100 times on Sunday. But that is just me.

I do think that the basic models have priced out many people, but I also really believe that Panerai could care less. They have stated all along that they want to be a boutique brand and want exclusivity. In order to do that they have to make sure they keep prices up and production numbers down.