YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity

[enjoythemusic]

With 2022 upon us, it is also time we within horology decide a new Holy Trinity.

With a nod to many decades ago, let us remember the Old-School Holy Trinity for its relevance when it was first decided upon by ???? many decades ago. Today, two of the old-school trinity are now part of very large corporate entities. The other one has changed quite a bit, with questions about various mass production quality levels instead of always doing the very best possible at ALL times.

With the Old School Holy Trinity now outdated, without a doubt it is time to choose the Modern Holy Trinity of horology. This is 2022 my friends. Virtually everyone i chat with seems to agree MB&F should be part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

Please post below who you feel are the true independent brands that make up the other two Modern Holy Trinity of today's timepiece invention/creation.

Note: This is Round One as we hone in on which three brands are part of the new Modern Holy Trinity.

[btwistround]

fp journe
czapek
h moser

[ChetBaker]

VC, Lange, Chopard

[mrN]

Richard Mille
Greubel Forsey
Mb&f


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[DoctorA]

Great thread!
I suggest adding a poll, choosing three brands
To me (I’m no particular order) it’s:

FP Journe
H. Moser & Cei
AP (IMHO) it’s still in the holly trinity )

A runner up is Grand Seiko (yes I know! But their dials, cases and details are crazy!!)

Your question is about INDEPENDENT brands so can’t pick ALS!!

[Ichiran]

Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin are still The Trinity in 2022. No change to world order...

Lange is somewhat close but their sports line is in infancy.

[_speedmaster_]

I'm putting a lot of weight to brands that moved along horology through technical innovation. I left out FPJ and DeBethune as they are currently not true independents.

MB&F
Urwerk
Greubel Forsey

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin are still The Trinity in 2022. No change to world order...

Lange is somewhat close but their sports line is in infancy.

Thanks for your sentiment, yet to be fair they really no longer apply today. i do respect what they stood/stand for **at the time of whoever decided very long ago** what the (now Old School) Holy Trinity was.

Times they have indeed changed. Progress marches on and all that. Plus i feel it is time WE ENTHUSIASTS decide who has earned being part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

Once again thanks for chiming in, and thanks for supporting the 'old guard' of horology.

[SoylentGreenChi]

Great thread!

My pick:

Richard Mille
Greubel Forsey
Audemars Piguet

My spouse’s pick:
Greubel Forsey
FP Journe
A. Lange & Sohne

Despite being on my list, I do not own and do not anticipate ever owning a Richard Mille or Greubel Forsey. Surely would be nice, though!


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[GoingPlaces]

Modern or old I don't think you can have this discussion without Patek, innovative, broad market reach (in terms of offerings) and highly (probably the most) relevant. Still the king and leader.

Mine would be FPJ, Greubel Forsey, and Patek.

[Screwly]

Can we do a holy Trinity of watches that we can actually get at retail

[Bearxj86]

Moderate to high level production for "classic" design trinity:
1) Patek
2) AP
3) Journe
4) Lange (Honorable mention)
5) VC (Honorable mention)

Top tier classical design trinity (if money is no object and finishing is king):
1) Dufour
2) Gruebel
3) Variety of independents (Roger Smith, Kari, Gronefeld etc.)

Top trinity of "special" material, "special design"
1) MB&F
2) Debethune
3) Urwerk

Debatable hype:
1) Richard Mille
2) Hublot
3) Ming

[SoylentGreenChi]

Ugh, I failed to pay sufficient attention to the independent aspect of the question. I’m still Greubel Forsey, Richard Mille, and AP. Spouse is Greubel Forsey, FP Journe and H. Moser and Cie (instead of Lange, which is not an indépendant).

Note: I’m keeping AP in the trinity because they still hit the mark (for me) on global reach, independence, innovation (love the Code, btw), and playfulness. I’m huge fan of AP.


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[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Thanks for your sentiment, yet to be fair they really no longer apply today. i do respect what they stood/stand for **at the time of whoever decided very long ago** what the (now Old School) Holy Trinity was.

Times they have indeed changed. Progress marches on and all that. Plus i feel it is time WE ENTHUSIASTS decide who has earned being part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

Once again thanks for chiming in, and thanks for supporting the 'old guard' of horology.

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

Good points, though imho we need to give recognition to today's true independents. The old establishment is welcome to enjoy its long history decided upon by ??? long ago and celebrate each company's continued accomplishments.

I look forward to the Modern Holy Trinity of horology.

BTW, if this was cars there was probably a Holy Trinity in the 1960s, yet exotic car production and performance manufacturing has changed since then. New companies not in business way back when are now taking the forefront. Ferrari is great, still innovating, yet....

Hope this better clarifies things. So again, yes let's celebrate the old guard, yet also give recognition to those taking horology into Modern times.

[henrylee]

Modern Trinity: Richard Mille, Greubel Forsey, FP Journe

Classic Trinity: PP, AP, VC

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

Fair points. I will say that being popular shouldn't be a consideration, otherwise Rolex would sit atop. The general public follows trends and marketing, not true watchmaking prowess.

I also think AP hasn't done enough over the past 20 years to keep it seated in a Trinity. From technical achievements, they have been outclassed by Lange. They are also much too reliant on the RO line.

[GB-man]

FPJ
FPJ
FPJ

[djnick]

Someone remind me again why AP with only 1 watch model really after decades belongs in the holy trinity?

[Screwly]

Originally Posted by djnick

Someone remind me again why AP with only 1 watch model really after decades belongs in the holy trinity?

In for the responses to this question

[djnick]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

I'm putting a lot of weight to brands that moved along horology through technical innovation. I left out FPJ and DeBethune as they are currently not true independents.

MB&F
Urwerk
Greubel Forsey

Doesn't Debetune make all their movements, dials, straps etc? They have many patents as well

[cascavel]

A Lange
FP Journe
are my candidates to round out the trinity. They are innovative and make superb quality watches without being anchored to one particular reference or model for their product line.

[shaunylw]

FPJ, Mille and Patek and their finishing is really top notch IMO.

[Pw92676]

I think the concept of a trinity (or any other numbered list for that matter) is simply outdated and, at best, only loosely applicable to subjective arenas.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by djnick

Doesn't Debetune make all their movements, dials, straps etc? They have many patents as well

Yes they do. They would have been first on my list. However, OP stated true independents. DeBethune is owned by Watchbox. This is also why I didn't include FPJ.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by djnick

Someone remind me again why AP with only 1 watch model really after decades belongs in the holy trinity?

They really shouldn’t be there.

[joli160]

1. Lange
2. Credor
3. Patek

[unknown]

Tbh,
One brand is not yet mentioned and it’s probably the only one that really deserves it.

Parmigiani!!

Please do look at them and read their history. Look at the manufactures that belong under the parmigiani/Sandoz foundation umbrella and you will understand they are a top tier players
They make cases , movements, dials…. For the entire industry.
And I mean THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY
Do some research


Most of the others mentioned I simply can’t agree and I’ll try to explain why.

Dufour and smith … top notch but with a production of less then 10-15 per year they are just not acceptable to be put in a holy trinity group.
They should at least be available to thousands of collectors just like the PP/VC/AP brands do

So for the same reason I exclude MB&F, Urwerk and archer similar top brands. 150 or so per year is imo still unacceptable
Again, nothing wrong with these brands, I even wish I had one or more but they are just to tiny

Greubel… also a no go for that reason and on top of it… their price.
Sorry bit if you can’t offer a great watch between 20 and 50 k you’re imo not worthy

Richard mille…. Unbelievable people still buy that joke. The are not a watch brand but a marketing brand. They pretend to be the best and most exclusive.
But for some models the use Vaucher movements ( and BTW Vaucher is aboard of parmigiani)
At 1/5 th of their listprice it would be acceptable.
Again, great marketing but that’s about it.

Czapek and Moser?
Great and will buy them but definitely not enough high end. Good finishing but on par with for example JLC. So imo not good enough to be called “superior “
And therefore not good enough to replace patek , Vacheron or Audemars
Besides they also use movements from Vaucher and Aghenor.


Really, put some time in reading about parmigiani , it’s not the most recognised brand today but if you would know who they work for and what level of finishing they can deliver…. I bet you’ll agree

Or please start with this
Buy this book and read it, you’ll learn about hand finishing and real haute horlogerie.
It’s a must have book

https://watchprint.com/fr/techniques...-de-gamme.html


There is a reason why I made a post a week ago about the parmigiani ionica and there is a reason why I said it blows away Patek, Vacheron and Audemars

[TimeAZ]

Rolex
AP
PP

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by djnick

Someone remind me again why AP with only 1 watch model really after decades belongs in the holy trinity?

That is a good question.
.
.

Originally Posted by Pw92676

I think the concept of a trinity (or any other numbered list for that matter) is simply outdated and, at best, only loosely applicable to subjective arenas.

Agreed, yet since we hear it so often, we now have to 'maintain' it's modern status. This is why it desperately needs updating. If not, we're mired in old habits no longer applicable... or worse still going backwards(!).

Originally Posted by GB-man

FPJ
FPJ
FPJ

I love ya!!! I don't care what others say about you behind your back, but man I sooo love ya