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Old 12 October 2018, 10:09 AM   #181
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I completely disagree about "scam advise" or "I would have done it different" not helping in this or any other "I've been scammed" thread. Of COURSE it helps. Maybe not the OP directly but it helps the people who have enough foresight to do a lot of research before sending off a ton of cash to some random person...hopefully they find this thread and heed the advice given by the various members.
I've learned a lot from this thread. The take-away - at least for me - is that I'm good at seeing the logic behind the scams after I become aware of them, but am not as good at spotting them before such time as I would have been taken. That only confirms my practice of sticking with reliable sellers, rather than taking chances. If others learn that from this thread, then it has done some good, even if it doesn't directly help JBK. As he said, he's hopeful this thread will help others, as well.

I've only ever encountered an attempted scam twice, and it was the same scam (not scammer) both times. The first time, I was selling a piece of furniture online, and a prospective buyer wanted to send me a cashier's check in excess of the purchase amount, and have me wire the overage to his movers. I smelled a rat, but still went forward with the deal until the check arrived. The overage was something like five times the cost of the furniture. Luckily, I caught on and wasn't out anything but time. In an online forum, I was informed that was one of the oldest tricks in the book, and I felt stupid for not seeing it earlier; but I was so unaccustomed to scamming that I simply didn't think I was in danger of it, and likewise didn't know the more common tactics. The second time it happened, obviously I saw it immediately, but I didn't catch on to the scam in this thread until others explained it to me. That convinces me I'm usually one step behind those who would take advantage.
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Old 12 October 2018, 10:25 AM   #182
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I had a similar scam attempt with a Porsche I was selling. The buyer said they would send a bank draft, but he wanted to use some carrier company to pick up the car as he was “at sea”. This sounds like many other scams I’ve heard of.

I said no issue, but I will keep the car for 4 weeks after the draft has cleared to ensure it doesn’t bounce after say 15 or 20 days.... I never heard back. I’ve heard of countless people being scammed by this send money, pick up the item, then the money bounces and the are out everything.
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Old 12 October 2018, 10:48 AM   #183
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I had a similar scam attempt with a Porsche I was selling. The buyer said they would send a bank draft, but he wanted to use some carrier company to pick up the car as he was “at sea”. This sounds like many other scams I’ve heard of.

I said no issue, but I will keep the car for 4 weeks after the draft has cleared to ensure it doesn’t bounce after say 15 or 20 days.... I never heard back. I’ve heard of countless people being scammed by this send money, pick up the item, then the money bounces and the are out everything.
Yep, that's exactly what was pulled on me, only for a much smaller amount.
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Old 12 October 2018, 11:03 AM   #184
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OP (and the others), I am so sorry to hear this. I hope everything works out.
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Old 12 October 2018, 11:48 AM   #185
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I hope everyone learn from this...

in conclusion, BUY THE SELLER. Do not buy from newbies (even with high post counts) without any legitimate references. The little saving is NOT worth it.
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Old 12 October 2018, 12:09 PM   #186
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I did this and everything else I could possibly do. The fact that there don’t appear to be any resources within law enforcement focused on aggregating/pursuing/investigating these cases would seem to embolden others to pursue similar wire fraud scams given that the apparent chances of being caught and/or pursued are so low. None of the authorities with whom I’ve spoken have given me anything in the form of direction or next steps. I’ve spent hours on the phone talking to as many people as I could across all of these agencies, while recovering from surgery no less, only to end up in the same exact spot I started in.

I’m going to explore other options and see if I can hire some kind of specialized investigator with expertise in digital/online forensics in an attempt to piece together all of the evidence and identify some kind of trail. It’s a long shot but the authorities have made clear that i should expect no such effort from them. Oakland PD told me there is one investigator that handles bank fraud for the entire city - they’re never going to look twice at my case.
I had a feeling this would be the outcome,Pretty Sad actually.I’m sure the Crooks know this will be the outcome as well,so why not? I’d bet this Guy has stolen Hundreds of Thousands over His “Career”.Why Rob a Bank with a Gun when this Hustle exists?
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Old 12 October 2018, 01:22 PM   #187
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On my earlier reply, I was trying to think of a movie quote that pretty much encapsulated the Law Enforcement response on this type of crime. I just remember it...it's from The Thomas Crown Affair (1999 version with Pierce Brosnan). Denis Leary plays the Detective and Rene Russo play the Insurance investigator. Towards the end of the movie (spoiler alert), Rene Russo's character asks Denis Leary's character about whether or not he's serious about catching the art theives...his response...

Quote:
I don't really give a shit.....look, the week before I met you, I nailed two crooked real estate agents and a guy who was beating his kids to death. So if some "Houdini" wants to snatch a couple swirls of paint that are really only important to some very silly rich people...I don't really give a damn.
It is unfortunate because like the OP says, it only emboldens the scammers to commit more wire fraud based scams...but god forbid you don't pay a parking ticket on time!
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Old 12 October 2018, 03:26 PM   #188
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With all the text will the bank not reverse the funds? Or were they already withdrawn? I used DavidSW and he went the extra mile to make me feel secure in the deal. But even then I felt nervous sending 10k plus out. But like they say no one doing this as a professional business is going to risk thief reputation on a 10k watch. I feel only the top trusted sellers and ADs will benefit from actions like these. The only worry I have is if the watch gets lost in the mail how will these big TS react. Had my wife’s 20k Tiffany engagement ring lost in the mail by fedex. Had to send it in for a lost diamond. Anyways took over 6 months and my lawyer getting involved to finally get it settled.


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Old 12 October 2018, 08:22 PM   #189
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Can you share your story, either in here or a new thread?
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=613570

here you go. it was shut down by the mods as it wasn't a deal done thru the forums but i had my first few deals with this ahole via this forum.

owes me 4grand and tell me he has done nothing wrong against me and he's trying his best to return me. told me he got burned by the recent bitcoin frenzy.

all sort of BS. the 4 grand has been pending for 4 months. i told him he can forget about the 4k. i am too lazy to chase anymore, i don't see a point and have it up in the FBI offender list.
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Old 13 October 2018, 04:23 AM   #190
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On my earlier reply, I was trying to think of a movie quote that pretty much encapsulated the Law Enforcement response on this type of crime. I just remember it...it's from The Thomas Crown Affair (1999 version with Pierce Brosnan). Denis Leary plays the Detective and Rene Russo play the Insurance investigator. Towards the end of the movie (spoiler alert), Rene Russo's character asks Denis Leary's character about whether or not he's serious about catching the art theives...his response...



It is unfortunate because like the OP says, it only emboldens the scammers to commit more wire fraud based scams...but god forbid you don't pay a parking ticket on time!
Exactly,There is a false sense of security with the Police,FBI,Interpol and even Insurance Companies.They think because You had 17K to spend on a Watch that You are “Rich” and can afford to lose it.
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Old 13 October 2018, 05:25 AM   #191
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Exactly,There is a false sense of security with the Police,FBI,Interpol and even Insurance Companies.They think because You had 17K to spend on a Watch that You are “Rich” and can afford to lose it.


If they had the time they would help. However, scammers are tough to catch and the FBI have bigger fish to go after. Maybe you will get lucky.


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Old 13 October 2018, 05:42 AM   #192
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I hope everyone learn from this...

in conclusion, BUY THE SELLER. Do not buy from newbies (even with high post counts) without any legitimate references. The little saving is NOT worth it.
I'm not arguing by any means just asking, were the big sellers once 1st time sellers?
How would one get started here. I'm a huge believer in but the seller in everything, cars, guns, and watches. But every one started somewhere.

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Old 13 October 2018, 05:43 AM   #193
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All proper authorities have been notified, investigations commenced etc. bottom line is that this will likely be a total loss for both myself and 0007. Nobody here needs to understand anything about my decision making process on this - I readily admit it was poor and easily avoidable - that’s the bottom line. This thread will now serve as a cautionary tale for others. I wish it wouldn’t have been at my expense but here I am. If it saves others the heartbreak and financial loss, at least something good will have come from this otherwise terrible experience.

If anything miraculous happens, I’ll update the thread accordingly. I won’t be holding my breath. For those who reached out directly and via PM - thank you, the support is appreciated.
To me this serves as buy from an AD!!! Or an established seller...
Mostly AD for me personally...
Every time someone tries to bypass The Rolex Way they
are putting themselves in harms way for either
a scam or fraud/fake....
I am speaking from experience myself as I was sold a
Frankenstein a few years ago trying to save $$$... Caution

OP. sorry for your troubles ... Really hope you get your $$$ back.
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Old 13 October 2018, 06:39 AM   #194
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I did this and everything else I could possibly do. The fact that there don’t appear to be any resources within law enforcement focused on aggregating/pursuing/investigating these cases would seem to embolden others to pursue similar wire fraud scams given that the apparent chances of being caught and/or pursued are so low. None of the authorities with whom I’ve spoken have given me anything in the form of direction or next steps. I’ve spent hours on the phone talking to as many people as I could across all of these agencies, while recovering from surgery no less, only to end up in the same exact spot I started in.

I’m going to explore other options and see if I can hire some kind of specialized investigator with expertise in digital/online forensics in an attempt to piece together all of the evidence and identify some kind of trail. It’s a long shot but the authorities have made clear that i should expect no such effort from them. Oakland PD told me there is one investigator that handles bank fraud for the entire city - they’re never going to look twice at my case.
Sorry man. This truly sucks!
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Old 13 October 2018, 06:54 AM   #195
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If they had the time they would help. However, scammers are tough to catch and the FBI have bigger fish to go after. Maybe you will get lucky.


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My point exactly.When they don’t have Time to catch someone who has scammed 3 Members(that we know of,Probably more) out of over 40K in a Week....That’s unacceptable to Me.
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Old 13 October 2018, 08:10 AM   #196
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I'm not arguing by any means just asking, were the big sellers once 1st time sellers?
How would one get started here. I'm a huge believer in but the seller in everything, cars, guns, and watches. But every one started somewhere.
Let's be real: despite all the warnings, there will always be people willing to take a chance for a good deal. (A perfect example can be seen here). Startup sellers have to rely on the risk-takers so that they can build their reputations and eventually appeal to the broader segment of buyers who insist on a proven track record. Ultimately, this thread won't change that, but perhaps it can alert some of the risk-takers to tactics to watch out for.
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Old 13 October 2018, 10:26 AM   #197
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I'm not arguing by any means just asking, were the big sellers once 1st time sellers?
How would one get started here. I'm a huge believer in but the seller in everything, cars, guns, and watches. But every one started somewhere.

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Hmmm...seller accepting PayPal, Face2Face, eBay references, etc.

If a buyer decides to take the risk and buy from a newbies, then that's his/her choice. I rather spend the extra and buy from a reputable seller.

I despise scammers, but when I see people being scammed without doing the basic check. really?
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Old 13 October 2018, 01:51 PM   #198
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F2F cash only deals from now on! But what about the counterfeiters??
I and many many others have had amazingly smooth and ethical transactions with trusted sellers like DavidSW (personally) and others, like takuya. Their reputations are well earned and I’d recommend them without reservation to other members.
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Old 13 October 2018, 11:56 PM   #199
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Appreciate all who have chimed in. There is no doubt I should have been more vigilant - I usually am and suffice to say this is a terrible experience. Like many here, I have worked incredibly hard to be able to indulge in this hobby. I have bought and sold 5 watches here over the last 6 months buying from and selling to both known trusted sellers and regular TRF members who, like me, enjoy this hobby and trusted me to make good on my end by overcommunicating and providing all of the info needed and reassurances required to provide them with peace of mind because of my relatively low post count and recent membership.

I am not wealthy and have worked so hard to save this money. This is a significant loss for me. I have shared my experience here to save others the heartbreak and hassle.

Here is an update on my end:

As expected - the watch never came. As of last night he had emailed and texted asking me for my wire info so he could send me a refund. I haven't sent my info because I cannot risk compromising myself further by providing him with more info he could potentially use to defraud me further.

@watchguy007 and @vipereaper30 - contact me directly and let's see what we can do in terms of organizing our efforts.

Regardless of the outcome, a very bitter pill to swallow. I appreciate all of the insight and concerns by the community here and will share more once I am able. Please PM me directly if you have experienced any scams involving this seller so we can coordinate and document accordingly.
really sorry to hear about your experience, and the other 2 in this thread. i would'nt be hard on yourself - the reality there are a lot of us in the forum that are not Rolex or watch trading experts or be able to tell the difference between a fake and a real rolex. we are human beings with jobs and other responsibilities, and you sound like someone that has worked hard and has a passion for the brand. the point i'm trying to make - you did some of the right things when purchasing, and asked for references (as everyone recommends). not all of us have 20+hours to spend researching to purchase a watch, some of us buy a home or car with less research time than some spend buying a watch.

you are the victim of a crime (and sounds like a relatively advanced scam thats been planned over many months), and unfortunately in today's world some will blame you. i prefer to blame the criminals and go after them - but its possible these criminals reside outside of the United States.

anyways - i'm sorry to hear about this situation and hope you can get some kind of resolution.
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Old 14 October 2018, 12:02 AM   #200
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I and many many others have had amazingly smooth and ethical transactions with trusted sellers like DavidSW (personally) and others, like takuya. Their reputations are well earned and I’d recommend them without reservation to other members.
i understand how everyone states to use a small group of trusted sellers. but how did these sellers become trusted sellers? my understanding is they started off on the Rolex Forums with a low post count, short history, no TRF references - they built these references over many years. their first 1-5 customers took a risk and purchased from a seller with little history, low post count, no references on TRF. in the case of DavidSW and Takuya etc it worked out well - they used those reviews/references to build a legit business. in the case of this Keller/scammer - they used those first few sales to do a quick scam and presumably fall off the face of the earth. what separtes the first customers DavidSW of Takuya against this scammer - i would argue its luck, and i think these buyers that got scammed have had bad luck. some may disagree.

how do you keep the marketplace competitive if you only allow a small group of TS to operate? also ethical issues in closing down a market and restricting the amount of sellers that can operate.

i'm new to the forums and have tried to get clear information on how to buy a used watch, but the reality is there is no guidebook or clear set of rules anyone has laid out. the forum is just full of peoples opinions, and some have very good advice which is why i'm here.
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Old 14 October 2018, 12:13 AM   #201
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i think these buyers that got scammed have had bad luck.
Well, it certainly is unfortunate, but don't think luck is the right word. The vetting process should have been way more through. Yes, the current successful TS had to start somewhere, and now there are several, which greatly reduces the risk of buying, so why not take advantage. I bought a watch from TAKUYA to minimize my nervousness, and the price was decent to boot.
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Old 14 October 2018, 02:26 AM   #202
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Well, it certainly is unfortunate, but don't think luck is the right word. The vetting process should have been way more through. Yes, the current successful TS had to start somewhere, and now there are several, which greatly reduces the risk of buying, so why not take advantage. I bought a watch from TAKUYA to minimize my nervousness, and the price was decent to boot.
the common advice given is to ask for references. the seller asked, and received references. he was not to know the references were likely fake and all a part of this elaborate scheme.

how else do you vet? i mean you're not purchasing a million dollar home - you're purchasing a watch. of course buying from a TS is a safer option and i understand thats sound/safe advice. if thats thew view of the forum (that you should ONLY buy from TS) - then from my POV all others sellers should be banned. as long as you have new sellers coming into the forum, you will have scams. its easy to mention a vetting process, more difficult to describe what the vetting process is.

personally - i prefer to keep the forum open to all - ensures you have new sellers coming into the forums. perhaps the majority of the sellers will be trusted/reliable, but you'll always have a % of sellers that want to scam and take off.

i say its bad luck - because there would have been a buyer in this position buying DavidSW or Takuyas first TRF sale. Did the buyers ask for their birth certificate and documents to their home - or did they take a risk? keep in mind if a scammer is very sophisticated - he can fake a lot of things - references, documents ,etc. thinking of that scene in breaking bad where Saul Goodman has 30 phones to trick the judge.
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Old 14 October 2018, 02:29 AM   #203
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I'm not arguing by any means just asking, were the big sellers once 1st time sellers?
How would one get started here. I'm a huge believer in but the seller in everything, cars, guns, and watches. But every one started somewhere.

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i couldnt agree more. all the TS were once 1st time sellers, and buyers took a risk and it worked out. in this instance the sellers took at risk and got burned. were the 1st time buyers of the big sellers starting out better at vetting- probably not. they just got lucky.
you cant stop whats coming.
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Old 14 October 2018, 03:31 AM   #204
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The reason I suggested that it was more than just bad luck, was because more experienced posters than me questioned the OPs vetting process, and noted some red flags. All I was saying is that it's more than just asking for references and getting a few email addresses to check. Guess we can all have our own opinions. This seller was bad news before OP wired the money, as previous posters pointed out with the negative threads on the guy.
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Old 14 October 2018, 04:29 AM   #205
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I think the forums provide an excellent form of liquidity for buying and selling watches. It’s all based on trust. These scammers tend to post at 15%+?less than market...not too low to draw that much attention but low enough for people to know it’s a good deal.

As a occasional seller; I know I will have to trade at a slight discount to DavidSW or others. However when you see prices that are at dealer buy price it’s usually too good to be true.
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Old 14 October 2018, 12:15 PM   #206
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While checking out the various sales forums, I ran into this thread regarding wire recalls:

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f63/be...e-4646409.html

Interesting read.
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Old 14 October 2018, 01:03 PM   #207
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Just as i said, wired funds can be recalled if fraud has been committed and with the cooperation of the receiving bank. Dodged a bullet there.
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Old 14 October 2018, 03:25 PM   #208
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Long term Trusted sellers or not, their accounts can still be hacked and be used in scams. This has become prevalent.

That is why it is becoming harder and harder to trust anyone online nowadays.

From my own experience, there has been a number of times I think I was about to be scammed or have actually been scammed (am mainly a buyer and not a seller).

For those 1 or twice that I have been scammed, I managed to get back my money either via PayPal or from my Credit Card company (for a chargeback). So one lesson learnt for buyers: use PayPal or Credit Card if you are dealing for the first time with the seller.

For the few times I was nearly scammed, I just did not feel wrong and stopped proceeding with the deals. Usually, it was either the deal was too good to be true, or the seller showed uncalled for urgency to sell, or the reference checks were all too brief and just did not look right to me. Basically, my instinct told me to walk away and I did.

At the end of the day, I think there is always this residual risk of being scammed or tricked into buy replicas in this hobby of ours. We just have to factor in the risks (to be mentally prepared) and try our very best not to be scammed.

This is just my 5 cents worth of opinions.
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Old 15 October 2018, 07:29 AM   #209
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really sorry to hear this! As a few others have mentioned, buy the seller, even if it costs a little more from a trusted seller.
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Old 15 October 2018, 07:49 AM   #210
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Yeah. So true. Buy the seller and if it is too good to be true. Most likely it is. Lesson learn.
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