An unbelievable story

[Bocktagon]

Originally Posted by sco

Sorry to hear all this, I read through the thread on Breitling Source as well. I find this whole thing totally crazy and don't understand how their "watchmaker" didn't realize it wasn't the in house B01 movement



How long have you owned the watch? It seems like the seller should be giving you a refund and dealing with the mess at the AD himself.

Thank you for the response. It's not a fun position to be in. I have had the watch for about 5 months now. However, I don't currently have it in my possession because I didn't want to pick it up from the AD and them saying it isn't the same watch at a later date. Still haven't decided what to do about that.

Originally Posted by Etschell

i think the guy who sold it to you scammed you. contact him and get your money back.

I can see how everyone initially would think that the guy who sold me the watch is trying to pull a scam. However, to my surprise and probably yours too, when I got the news I called and told him and he was livid. Then we three way called the owner of the AD and it turned into quite an argument between those two. He suggested to the AD that the watchmaker switched out the movement because when he brought it into the store to get serviced everyone understood it was authentic. He took it there and paid 600+ to have it serviced because they are one of the only authorized Breitling AD's in LA with the other one being the sister store under the same owner. He's willing to go through whatever process I decide to help me and has been available every time I have tried to reach him. Him giving me my money back though? I don't think he will be willing to do that especially considering from his end he sold me an authentic watch that had just been serviced by a certified watchmaker in an authorized dealers store. With that being said, I get his position on that because the avenue we both took was the only one two parties can really take in a transaction such as this right?

By the way, here's the receipt for the servicing from the AD with the one year warranty which is obviously useless.

[AK797]

Well it isn't just the movement, the dial is also wrong so is it possible the watchmaker switched a whole fake watch? If you have pics of the watch you bought before you had the work done then you will know who is the guilty party - the seller or watchmaker.

[sco]

Also, where did the seller acquire the watch in the first place?

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by sco

Also, where did the seller acquire the watch in the first place?

Yes, and again, it would be helpful to the entire watch "pre-owned" community to know if this watch (whether when you bought it or originally) ever came with full box and papers??? It's clearly a fake and I'd like to know/see the documentation. Thanks.

[fitzs]

I'm still waiting on pictures of this fake watch.

P.S. Bocktagon: I think you're a nice guy, but the Brietling crowd knew that was a fake watch the minute they saw it. Yes, I know the AD serviced it, but I've seen some fairly ignorant watchmakers who don't even know the caliber number of the movement they're working on. You had horrible luck with that, and I'm sorry that they serviced and authenticated it for you. I'll give you that. However, very quick, simple research could've very easily avoided this entire thing. You probably are getting scammed by the guy who sold it to you. As always, do your homework, buy the seller, and walk away if there's even a smidgen of doubt. Best of luck to you in future purchases.

[KBM]

What an unreal story. Surely, the guy who sold you the watch is liable.

[Bocktagon]

Originally Posted by AK797

Well it isn't just the movement, the dial is also wrong so is it possible the watchmaker switched a whole fake watch? If you have pics of the watch you bought before you had the work done then you will know who is the guilty party - the seller or watchmaker.

I agree with you, especially after seeing what the Breitling world had to say about it. I was just saying that is what was suggested when we were on the phone so I think it is highly unlikely he knew considering he shelled out 600 to have it serviced. I don't know anyone that would do that to a fake watch. I am checking with the seller to see if I can come up with that picture. I think that is a good idea. One that I haven't thought of yet.

Originally Posted by sco

Also, where did the seller acquire the watch in the first place?

The seller bought the watch from a friend when he lived in Germany. He said he was standing right beside him when his friend purchased the watch from an AD there.

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

Yes, and again, it would be helpful to the entire watch "pre-owned" community to know if this watch (whether when you bought it or originally) ever came with full box and papers??? It's clearly a fake and I'd like to know/see the documentation. Thanks.

The watch apparently did come with full box and papers. When I originally made the deal I told him that if he could get them to me I would give him another 400 dollars because it was left in storage before he left. While I understand what this is sounding like, after talking to the watchmaker these things weren't much of a concern as I was dead certain it was an authentic watch.

Originally Posted by fitzs

I'm still waiting on pictures of this fake watch.

P.S. Bocktagon: I think you're a nice guy, but the Brietling crowd knew that was a fake watch the minute they saw it. Yes, I know the AD serviced it, but I've seen some fairly ignorant watchmakers who don't even know the caliber number of the movement they're working on. You had horrible luck with that, and I'm sorry that they serviced and authenticated it for you. I'll give you that. However, very quick, simple research could've very easily avoided this entire thing. You probably are getting scammed by the guy who sold it to you. As always, do your homework, buy the seller, and walk away if there's even a smidgen of doubt. Best of luck to you in future purchases.

I will post pictures in the next post for you to see.

Thank you for saying I sound like a nice guy. I can't believe you have seen watchmakers that wouldn't know if a watch was authentic if they entirely disassembled it and put it back together. With that being said, I am not a watchmaker so it's tough for me to pass judgement on that matter. However, I consider myself quite good at my job which so happens to be explosives and I would certainly know if anything in that department is authentic or not without fail. I would imagine most of you would say the same about your trade no? If you're a doctor, would you know if a person had a fake heart if you were operation on them? If you're a mechanic would you not realize an engine wasn't the right one if you completely disassembled it and put it back together? Is that a fair comparison to working on watches every single day for 20 years plus?

[Bocktagon]

Originally Posted by AK797

Well it isn't just the movement, the dial is also wrong so is it possible the watchmaker switched a whole fake watch? If you have pics of the watch you bought before you had the work done then you will know who is the guilty party - the seller or watchmaker.

Okay. Texted him and got the pics. To keep this thread straight and not get it confused.

THESE ARE PICS BEFORE I BOUGHT THE WATCH!

[Bocktagon]

THESE ARE PICS THAT I TOOK MYSELF THAT I POSTED ON EBAY/BRIETLING FORUM!

[Etschell]

The guy sold you a fake watch. Whether he knew it or not is irrelevant. He needs to refund your money. It is his problem not yours.

[jrs146]

Originally Posted by Bocktagon

The seller bought the watch from a friend when he lived in Germany. He said he was standing right beside him when his friend purchased the watch from an AD there.

Ok the seller is absolutely lying. There is no chance that a fake watch was originally sold brand new from an AD. If he is saying that - he's 100% scamming you. Plus what's the likelihood that he was really standing there during the original sale?Possible...yes...probable...not really.

The seller is painting you a very nice story but it's a lie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fitzs]

The two watches you posted are completely different, so 2 scenarios--one very likely, one not so much.

Not so likely: watchmaker took your real one and swapped it out with fake
Very likely: seller simply sent you pictures of a real Breitling and is telling you that's the watch he sold you.

You're being taken for a ride by this guy who sold you the watch, and you're gobbling up everything he throws at you. A bizarre wrinkle in this whole plot is that the watchmaker at the AD was ignorant and actually serviced a complete fake.

I'm sorry for your unfortunate circumstances. It really, really sucks and I feel for you. I was under the impression that you bought the watch you saw, but most likely, you were really just shown a genuine Breitling in pictures and sold a fake. It's a hell of a scam and one of the easiest to pull with informal, peer-to-peer luxury timepiece transactions and can happen to any one of us. This is where the golden rule of "buy the seller" comes into play and is a great example of why that is a golden rule--perhaps THE golden rule--of secondhand watch purchases.

It's time to accept the fact that you more than likely bought a fake from a scammer, regardless of whether or not the AD serviced it (I've heard of Panerai AD's authenticating high-quality Asian replicas--it happens). It's a tough pill to swallow, but the sooner you take your lumps, the sooner you can start working on shaking down this chump that dumped a fake off to you and getting your cash back. I'd be in contact with authorities and getting everything he's telling you in writing by either text or email or even handwritten. Everything he's telling you is to cover his tracks--if you and the authorities can catch him in a lie, you might be able to eventually get your money back.

Disclaimer: read my signature. This is all purely conjecture on my part and I ain't liable for anything that goes down.

[Bocktagon]

After reading all of your responses and taking everything into consideration, I did done hard thinking and decided to switch gears and go a different route now. I'm hoping something works out for the good and I get my money back.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Bocktagon

After reading all of your responses and taking everything into consideration, I did done hard thinking and decided to switch gears and go a different route now. I'm hoping something works out for the good and I get my money back.

I hope that means that you're going after the seller of the watch and stop all this writing to Breitling CEO stuff...

The dude sold you a fake watch. The story he told you is crap....unless he did buy a REAL B01 off his friend, have that one serviced, then sold you a FAKE with the service receipt from the real one...but...the fact that an AD even touched a B01 is weird....let alone not knowing the movement was a clone of one that didn't even belong in that reference...

But, all that is just noise....the real avenue of recompense is with the guy who sold you the fake watch....

This is an example of a point I always try to make....AD's CANNOT authenticate a watch. They just don't know enough.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

I hope that means that you're going after the seller of the watch and stop all this writing to Breitling CEO stuff...

The dude sold you a fake watch. The story he told you is crap....unless he did buy a REAL B01 off his friend, have that one serviced, then sold you a FAKE with the service receipt from the real one...but...the fact that an AD even touched a B01 is weird....let alone not knowing the movement was a clone of one that didn't even belong in that reference...

But, all that is just noise....the real avenue of recompense is with the guy who sold you the fake watch....

This is an example of a point I always try to make....AD's CANNOT authenticate a watch. They just don't know enough.

Amen 100%. The guy that sold it to you if not being truthful. Some of us on the forums have been there and can understand. Good luck!

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Etschell

The guy sold you a fake watch. Whether he knew it or not is irrelevant. He needs to refund your money. It is his problem not yours.

This is it...bottom line, end of story. Everything else is only irrelevant noise.

He represented to you that the watch was real. You paid fair market value to buy an authentic watch. He owes you, and it is his burden to be made whole by whomever sold him the watch, and it's that guy's burden etc etc up the chain of ownership.

Edit: as an aside, does the serial # on the service receipt match the serial on the watch in your possession?

[Bocktagon]

Yep that's about the size of it guys. I realized it's irrelevant if he thought it was real or not. It's going to get interesting.

As for the serial number, when they polished the case it apparently was polished off. At least I can't see it. However, they still have the watch so that's how it was when I was looking at it before.

[sco]

Go get that seller!!!!!

[Bocktagon]

Originally Posted by sco

Go get that seller!!!!!

I'm on it! Talked to him tonight. He still thinks the watch is authentic and suggests that the watch on his wrist in those pictures is real as well which is hilarious. He says he will not give me money, nor will I win in court if I don't have any documentation stating that the watch is not real. Being as Breitling does not provide that, I will not able able to get that kind of documentation unless I get the watch then go to various AD's and hopefully have them write statements saying that the watch isn't authentic I suppose. I am definitely going to get the pictures printed on high quality paper and then list all of the things that have been mentioned about the watch. Speaking of, if any of you are an expert on that matter and know the proper way to state it, please message me on what all is wrong with the watch. I know we don't like to post things like that in the thread for obvious reasons so any help there would be appreciated.

By the way, met with the owner of the AD that serviced the watch today. Interesting conversation, nice guy. I think he might help out.

Thanks again guys.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Bocktagon

I'm on it! Talked to him tonight. He still thinks the watch is authentic and suggests that the watch on his wrist in those pictures is real as well which is hilarious. He says he will not give me money, nor will I win in court if I don't have any documentation stating that the watch is not real. Being as Breitling does not provide that, I will not able able to get that kind of documentation unless I get the watch then go to various AD's and hopefully have them write statements saying that the watch isn't authentic I suppose. I am definitely going to get the pictures printed on high quality paper and then list all of the things that have been mentioned about the watch. Speaking of, if any of you are an expert on that matter and know the proper way to state it, please message me on what all is wrong with the watch. I know we don't like to post things like that in the thread for obvious reasons so any help there would be appreciated.

By the way, met with the owner of the AD that serviced the watch today. Interesting conversation, nice guy. I think he might help out.

Thanks again guys.

How did you pay for the watch?

[Bocktagon]

Originally Posted by fleetlord

how did you pay for the watch?

$4400

[Saoirse32]

No, how? Paypal, CC, cash...

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

No, how? Paypal, CC, cash...

It was a face to face transaction, so I would say he paid cash.

[Bocktagon]

Cash

[Bocktagon]

At a watch makers shop right after he opened it and said it was authentic.

[cruvon]

Sorry to hear your story mate. My opinion is that the seller should bear the responsibility for selling you a fake though the conduct of the Breitling AD and of Breitling themselves based on your thread here and at Breitlingsource is very appaling to say the least. Give the seller the option to refund you your money pending a police complaint and/or legal action. You could explore the option of going after the AD too for providing you poor advice.
I wouldn't waste my time taking the watch to other watchmakers if the guys at Breitlingsource have already told you it's not authentic, those guys are very knowledgeable on modern and vintage Breitlings.

[Bocktagon]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Sorry to hear your story mate. My opinion is that the seller should bear the responsibility for selling you a fake though the conduct of the Breitling AD and of Breitling themselves based on your thread here and at Breitlingsource is very appaling to say the least. Give the seller the option to refund you your money pending a police complaint and/or legal action. You could explore the option of going after the AD too for providing you poor advice.
I wouldn't waste my time taking the watch to other watchmakers if the guys at Breitlingsource have already told you it's not authentic, those guys are very knowledgeable on modern and vintage Breitlings.

Thank you for the advice, I very much appreciate that. I have already sent a letter stating basically what you have said, which should have arrived yesterday. However, the police report wasn't possible because it is a civil matter. I tried that, but because I can't technically prove he had criminal intent, you aren't able to file a report.

The Breiltingsource guys are amazing. What an incredible resource. Had I known that you could post pictures and someone could tell you if it was authentic back when I bought it, I would have saved a lot of money. At the time, I figured if anything was wrong with the watch it would have been with the movement and when it was opened in front of me and I was told it was authentic, my mind was at ease. Never going to make that mistake again. So now it is off to the next step if I don't hear something back with the next week.

The only problem I am current having is the judge will want to see proof that it isn't authentic and why. Without a letter from Breitling, I don't have that. With that being said, I would imagine my only option would be is to take the watch to other watchmakers and pay them to write statements stating that it is fake for court purposes wouldn't you think?

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by Bocktagon

Thank you for the advice, I very much appreciate that. I have already sent a letter stating basically what you have said, which should have arrived yesterday. However, the police report wasn't possible because it is a civil matter. I tried that, but because I can't technically prove he had criminal intent, you aren't able to file a report.

The Breiltingsource guys are amazing. What an incredible resource. Had I known that you could post pictures and someone could tell you if it was authentic back when I bought it, I would have saved a lot of money. At the time, I figured if anything was wrong with the watch it would have been with the movement and when it was opened in front of me and I was told it was authentic, my mind was at ease. Never going to make that mistake again. So now it is off to the next step if I don't hear something back with the next week.

The only problem I am current having is the judge will want to see proof that it isn't authentic and why. Without a letter from Breitling, I don't have that. With that being said, I would imagine my only option would be is to take the watch to other watchmakers and pay them to write statements stating that it is fake for court purposes wouldn't you think?

Cheers. I would have thought the seller selling you a fake would be a good reason for it being classed as a criminal case and the police would have to prove his intent was honest? Also think he sent you pictures of a real Breitling though he actually sent you a fake one?

If forced to go the civil case route I guess it will mean you need hire a lawyer and thats going to cost more than you spent on the watch? Unless you know the seller is well to do and not a petty criminal with no funds, it may be a wasted effort. Another option is if you plan represent yourself, not sure what the laws for that are in the US.

True, to follow either route, you would need a decent watchmaker to authenticate the watch as fake. The guys at Breitlingsource might know some, there are a few Breitling dealers there who might help with authentication.

[KeepTicking]

Originally Posted by Bocktagon

Okay. Texted him and got the pics. To keep this thread straight and not get it confused.

THESE ARE PICS BEFORE I BOUGHT THE WATCH!

These pics he sent before you bought the watch are of a fake navi. The spacing on the subdials makes it unequivocally fake. Let me show you:

Here is a pic of my very real 43mm navi, observe the dial spacing:



Here is the dial spacing on the fake, same as the pics that were sent to you:


The reason for the difference is that the genuine 01 movement, internally, has the subdials spaced ever so slightly tighter than the fake movements based off the old valjoux movements.

[KeepTicking]

As far as suing him, you have a very strong case if you can prove he sent those to you (email/text records). If the guy is out of state, you'll have to sue and serve him in his state, as your home state court won't have jurisdiction over him. To make it air tight, I would ask breitling not to verify that his is a fake, but to verify that the pictures he sent you, with the subdials spaced as I've shown you, are not correct, that is, breitling has never made a navi 01 with the subdials spaced that way (they haven't). If you can get that from breitling, you're set, you have enough evidence to prove he sold you a fake, you will win.

The only possible issue would be if he's broke and already has a line of creditors after him (he's judgement proof).