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Old 17 November 2021, 01:18 PM   #1
Rollieo
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AP opinions?

I’ve been learning more about AP as I’ve been interested in the RO and ROC.

Seems like finishing is incredible and they make an absolutely beautiful watch. The RO with the integrated bracelet, tapestry dial, and the level of finishing throughout just makes for such a nice piece. The watch is literally jewelry, second to none on the market. The RO also has a storied history. It does seem like they are a “one family” watch though, between the RO and ROO. I’ve seen the Code watches and in my personal opinion they’re hideous.

As far as mechanical and watchmaking capabilities - they actually seem very average. Many of the movements aren’t made in house (i.e. almost all the ROC), and I’ve heard about the issue with the hour/minute hand on the RO movement that is a simple time/date movement. For a manufacture considered a top luxury brand that produces less than 50k watches and can’t get a time/date movement right… just seems so wrong. Also the misplaced date window in the ROC is crazy to me, that they can do so much right with the finishing and attention to detail, but then not center the date window. They ended up correcting this in their new ROC which has an in-house movement, but it’s a thicker watch at 12.4mm compared to the outgoing model. How is it they can’t figure out how to make a thin chronograph? I know it isn’t easy, but this isn’t IWC or Tag Heuer. Then you look at the RO jumbo, which is a nice thin movement, but is a very legacy model that doesn’t have a second hand and is supposedly quite delicate.

Am I far off here?
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Old 17 November 2021, 01:27 PM   #2
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Purely conjecture on my part here, but I believe AP could make the watches thinner if they really wanted to. They clearly have sufficient R&D resources, and the RD2 watch shows they can make thin if they wanted to, so this leads me to believe it's a design decision to make the watch look even more pronounced on the wrist visually.


I had many of the same concerns about movement on the ROC like you did, but at the end of the day, I'm just enjoying the watch/dial too much to care at this point. It's like an intellectual annoyance rather than a practical one after 2 years.
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Old 17 November 2021, 02:14 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Rollieo View Post
I’ve been learning more about AP as I’ve been interested in the RO and ROC.

Seems like finishing is incredible and they make an absolutely beautiful watch. The RO with the integrated bracelet, tapestry dial, and the level of finishing throughout just makes for such a nice piece. The watch is literally jewelry, second to none on the market. The RO also has a storied history. It does seem like they are a “one family” watch though, between the RO and ROO. I’ve seen the Code watches and in my personal opinion they’re hideous.

As far as mechanical and watchmaking capabilities - they actually seem very average. Many of the movements aren’t made in house (i.e. almost all the ROC), and I’ve heard about the issue with the hour/minute hand on the RO movement that is a simple time/date movement. For a manufacture considered a top luxury brand that produces less than 50k watches and can’t get a time/date movement right… just seems so wrong. Also the misplaced date window in the ROC is crazy to me, that they can do so much right with the finishing and attention to detail, but then not center the date window. They ended up correcting this in their new ROC which has an in-house movement, but it’s a thicker watch at 12.4mm compared to the outgoing model. How is it they can’t figure out how to make a thin chronograph? I know it isn’t easy, but this isn’t IWC or Tag Heuer. Then you look at the RO jumbo, which is a nice thin movement, but is a very legacy model that doesn’t have a second hand and is supposedly quite delicate.

Am I far off here?
Am I missing something because you don't seem to like AP all that much? What are you hoping to get from this post?
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Old 17 November 2021, 05:26 PM   #4
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I think you are pretty far from the ball indeed.

AP's movements are definitely HH and stunning. To what are you comparing?
I don't believe they are too far away from PP. And apart from independents with limited productions and question marks about long-term, what is better than AP out there?
Yes you have people reporting quality problems but as with any good that is artisanal, not mass produced and delicate. Same problems happen with VC, PP or other guys. The exception is probably Rolex but we are not talking HH here.

Their last chrono isn't thick. It's actually thinner than a 5980 or an overseas chrono but everybody is picking on that because the previous ROC was only 11mm (what was really especially thin in the watch game).

Their skeletons and PCs are pieces of art and you don't have any equivalent in the watch game in my opinion.

It seems you don't understand the brand that much and want to get there because of the hype. Then my advice is don't.
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Old 17 November 2021, 06:13 PM   #5
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Check out the new royal oak offshore chrono 43mm. New in house movement, fly back chronograph, real depth to the dial unlike the outgoing 44mm, titanium and steel options with ceramic bezels so not a scratch magnet. I have just bought one and all in all it’s a very good latest iteration of the offshore and I think (this sounds crazy I know) but the prices are quite “fair” given the movement up grade redesigned and more ergonomic case design easily interchangeable straps- it’s a push button system you can do yourself. And let’s be fair you’ve a better chance at nabbing one of these from your local dealer than a ROC, which as someone else has said is waiting for a movement upgrade anyway.
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Old 17 November 2021, 06:15 PM   #6
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I think its all a matter of preference. I thought the off centered date would be an annoyance as well but after owning a 26331st panda for over a year now I prefer the ROC dial configuration compared to the new in house chrono ROC. It may be more subdial based but I now enjoy the off centered date. They are also using the same movement as the oversees which side by side wears significantly smaller than a ROC so it doesn’t surprise me that they had to shift the date slightly to fit a bigger footprint. The 26331st dial configuration is my ultimate preference even after seeing new chrono in person.

I find the only real advantage of the new ROC is exhibition caseback. From what ive read on these forums the code chrono movement has some of its own issues. I don’t believe AP to be anymore delicate than PP, VC etc..

Ultimately, nothing AP makes is mass produced and still has many artisanal aspects of the assembly process so I think its unfair to expect Rolex quality durability when Rolex is mostly machined movements at this point.


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Old 17 November 2021, 06:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Rollieo View Post
I’ve been learning more about AP as I’ve been interested in the RO and ROC.

Seems like finishing is incredible and they make an absolutely beautiful watch. The RO with the integrated bracelet, tapestry dial, and the level of finishing throughout just makes for such a nice piece. The watch is literally jewelry, second to none on the market. The RO also has a storied history. It does seem like they are a “one family” watch though, between the RO and ROO. I’ve seen the Code watches and in my personal opinion they’re hideous.

As far as mechanical and watchmaking capabilities - they actually seem very average. Many of the movements aren’t made in house (i.e. almost all the ROC), and I’ve heard about the issue with the hour/minute hand on the RO movement that is a simple time/date movement. For a manufacture considered a top luxury brand that produces less than 50k watches and can’t get a time/date movement right… just seems so wrong. Also the misplaced date window in the ROC is crazy to me, that they can do so much right with the finishing and attention to detail, but then not center the date window. They ended up correcting this in their new ROC which has an in-house movement, but it’s a thicker watch at 12.4mm compared to the outgoing model. How is it they can’t figure out how to make a thin chronograph? I know it isn’t easy, but this isn’t IWC or Tag Heuer. Then you look at the RO jumbo, which is a nice thin movement, but is a very legacy model that doesn’t have a second hand and is supposedly quite delicate.

Am I far off here?
Cost, either you buy Piguet 1185s and then the date clicks into place where it happens to do so on the movement in question and you make a hole in the dial just above that, regardless of your dial design, or you make your own movement where you get to determine where the date falls into place, but have to build it yourself. When you do the latter, making a thinner movement means tighter tolerances, a more fragile outcome (hello caliber 2121 quality issues) and higher cost. Believe it or not, the latter does still matter even at that price level. The brand is insanely profitable, they’d have ample room for handing more of the purchase price into manufacturing, but why would they? Folks buy the watches no matter what and the family has expensive tastes to cater to.

So we’ll continue to see base movements that are what they are, both in terms of engineering and finishing (once you look where it matters, you might lose an illusion or two about the brand there as well). But in the end, none of that is of any importance if you want a RO or a ROO. The products as a whole are attractive enough, despite their clear shortcomings in certain aspects. Enough for my money at least, as I have just bought one again.
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Old 17 November 2021, 07:44 PM   #8
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...and the family has expensive tastes to cater to.
Glad that there are still places in the world were buyers of 30k CHF timepieces can lament others expensive tastes
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Old 17 November 2021, 07:55 PM   #9
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Glad that there are still places in the world were buyers of 30k CHF timepieces can lament others expensive tastes
I suspect that’s more reliant on your inference than it is on what I actually wrote. I don’t blame anyone for maximizing their return any more than the next guy. But I don’t take exception to acknowledging that folks I purchase from may be doing so. Just a matter of how open you want your eyes to be when dwelling in this beautiful little bubble of ours.
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Old 17 November 2021, 08:16 PM   #10
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I suspect that’s more reliant on your inference than it is on what I actually wrote. I don’t blame anyone for maximizing their return any more than the next guy. But I don’t take exception to acknowledging that folks I purchase from may be doing so. Just a matter of how open you want your eyes to be when dwelling in this beautiful little bubble of ours.
Just pulling your leg a bit. It is an interesting bubble.
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Old 17 November 2021, 10:50 PM   #11
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Glad that there are still places in the world were buyers of 30k CHF timepieces can lament others expensive tastes
Lol lol
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Old 17 November 2021, 10:56 PM   #12
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Glad that there are still places in the world were buyers of 30k CHF timepieces can lament others expensive tastes
I think this is taken out of context.
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Old 18 November 2021, 03:53 AM   #13
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Pull the trigger if it sings to you!
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Old 18 November 2021, 06:23 AM   #14
Rollieo
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I think you are pretty far from the ball indeed.

AP's movements are definitely HH and stunning. To what are you comparing?
I don't believe they are too far away from PP. And apart from independents with limited productions and question marks about long-term, what is better than AP out there?
Yes you have people reporting quality problems but as with any good that is artisanal, not mass produced and delicate. Same problems happen with VC, PP or other guys. The exception is probably Rolex but we are not talking HH here.

Their last chrono isn't thick. It's actually thinner than a 5980 or an overseas chrono but everybody is picking on that because the previous ROC was only 11mm (what was really especially thin in the watch game).

Their skeletons and PCs are pieces of art and you don't have any equivalent in the watch game in my opinion.

It seems you don't understand the brand that much and want to get there because of the hype. Then my advice is don't.
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Purely conjecture on my part here, but I believe AP could make the watches thinner if they really wanted to. They clearly have sufficient R&D resources, and the RD2 watch shows they can make thin if they wanted to, so this leads me to believe it's a design decision to make the watch look even more pronounced on the wrist visually.


I had many of the same concerns about movement on the ROC like you did, but at the end of the day, I'm just enjoying the watch/dial too much to care at this point. It's like an intellectual annoyance rather than a practical one after 2 years.
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I think its all a matter of preference. I thought the off centered date would be an annoyance as well but after owning a 26331st panda for over a year now I prefer the ROC dial configuration compared to the new in house chrono ROC. It may be more subdial based but I now enjoy the off centered date. They are also using the same movement as the oversees which side by side wears significantly smaller than a ROC so it doesn’t surprise me that they had to shift the date slightly to fit a bigger footprint. The 26331st dial configuration is my ultimate preference even after seeing new chrono in person.

I find the only real advantage of the new ROC is exhibition caseback. From what ive read on these forums the code chrono movement has some of its own issues. I don’t believe AP to be anymore delicate than PP, VC etc..

Ultimately, nothing AP makes is mass produced and still has many artisanal aspects of the assembly process so I think its unfair to expect Rolex quality durability when Rolex is mostly machined movements at this point.


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Let me start by saying I really am considering AP and there’s a lot I like. These are just some of the things that bother me, and the funny thing is that when you spend this kind of money you would think everything would be absolutely perfect, but for us watch fanatics there’s always something you end up accepting.

With that said:

1. Not having an in house movement I can live with, and I agree it’s an intellectual annoyance rather than practical. But what really bothers me is that they couldn’t center the date window on the ROC, and that’s driven by the fact that the movement isn’t in house. It’s such a perfectly designed and beautiful watch. Literally it’s perfect. Except the ]*^}% date window!! I know it’s a lot of money to design you own movement just to get the date window aligned, but at this level of luxury I don’t think any shortcuts should be taken. It would just be a constant reminder of it.

2. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have the expectation of high mechanical quality and reliability even for a small volume artisanal brand. Patek does it, Omega does it with some of their watches (ie the new 321), Grand Seiko does it. I would expect a brand like AP to do it.

3. Thinness in the watch is a design feature that is hard to achieve but makes a big difference in wearability. When I was looking for a nice time only dress watch that was thin (sub 9mm), mechanical, exhibition case back, with high level of finishing and an incredible design. I bought a Patek, because that’s the only thing out there that checked all the boxes. AP sets itself apart by having a chrono at 11mm. Putting it in the mid 12s just puts it in the rest of the pack.

Lastly in response to hype - I don’t buy hype. I very much enjoy the omega I bought 15 years ago today as I do now. I got my datejust over 10 years ago. I recently got a Patek Calatrava. Most people don’t know what it is but I don’t care. I do enjoy learning about the brand and the specific watches, and buy what I like.

The RO does offer something no other watch has (at least in my opinion), which is jewelry level finishing and watch design. Maybe that is enough.
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Old 18 November 2021, 06:23 AM   #15
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Am I missing something because you don't seem to like AP all that much? What are you hoping to get from this post?
A conversation about the positives and negatives of AP
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Old 18 November 2021, 09:00 AM   #16
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A conversation about the positives and negatives of AP


This is an exceptional watch and I also like the subdial placement better than on the new model. The date window is actually spaced nicely between the 3 oclock and 6 oclock subdials. Try to look at it that way rather than between the hour markers and it makes sense.

Also, if it still bothers you the older 26320st ROC has everything symmetrially spaced.

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Old 18 November 2021, 09:03 AM   #17
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I'm not sure if you ever tried an AP on in person but it makes a huge difference in understanding the brand. I was never a fan based on pictures and catalogues but once I tried one on, it all makes sense. It's leaps and bounds more special than a lot of other brands.
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Old 18 November 2021, 09:43 AM   #18
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I'm not sure if you ever tried an AP on in person but it makes a huge difference in understanding the brand. I was never a fan based on pictures and catalogues but once I tried one on, it all makes sense. It's leaps and bounds more special than a lot of other brands.
yeah agreed, they photograph terribly. they need to be seen in the flesh under the special boutique lighting that'll bring out the best in them
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Old 18 November 2021, 10:06 AM   #19
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OP, thank you for the series reply. I can share I had all the same concerns, same exact frame of thinking. And when it was all said and done, I was still happy with the watch. Both RO and ROC. I enjoy the ROC more despite bad date window and lack of display movement. I enjoy it more than Aqua (personal preference, not saying I don’t enjoy Aqua).

Re the date window, it’s kind of like so I like the current iteration of tail lights on a Porsche? No. But if I can get a GT3 today do I still take it and enjoy it even though it’s super expensive and I hate the tail lights? Yes, I still take it and enjoy.
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Old 19 November 2021, 03:06 AM   #20
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AP sets itself apart by having a chrono at 11mm. Putting it in the mid 12s just puts it in the rest of the pack.
I think you make a fair point. The ROC was 11mm for over 20 years and its thinness was one of its defining features. AP's brand philosophy is: "To break the rules, you must first master them", but I don't see that philosophy in their new in-house movement.
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Old 19 November 2021, 03:20 AM   #21
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I think you make a fair point. The ROC was 11mm for over 20 years and its thinness was one of its defining features. AP's brand philosophy is: "To break the rules, you must first master them", but I don't see that philosophy in their new in-house movement.
I fully agree. That's why I always thought that upgrade was a shame.
Funnily it doesn't really bother me on a gold watch - I like my gold watches to be chubby if that makes sense (maybe the feel of getting more gold for my buck
However it's a shame for the steel...
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Old 19 November 2021, 04:27 AM   #22
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This is an exceptional watch and I also like the subdial placement better than on the new model. The date window is actually spaced nicely between the 3 oclock and 6 oclock subdials. Try to look at it that way rather than between the hour markers and it makes sense.

Also, if it still bothers you the older 26320st ROC has everything symmetrially spaced.

I think the point is less the placement between the hour markers, but rather the fact that the movement is just too small. The new movement places the date outboard, where it belongs.
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Old 19 November 2021, 04:37 AM   #23
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The RO does offer something no other watch has (at least in my opinion), which is jewelry level finishing and watch design. Maybe that is enough.
What is jewelry level finishing? And where do you have that on a RO in a way that no other watch has? Yes, the brushed and polished case details are very finely executed and the movement has an ok finish that's even pretty good considering it's largely a machine job. But make no mistake, a movement finished to the level of an AP base movement would never get something like a Geneva seal, even if it were made in Geneva.

So whether that jewelry level finish is truly better than every other watch I really don't know. You may want to go look at a few more of these Pateks, or a Lange, or a Vacheron, and that's before you move into the independents. The great thing with AP is the simplicity and boldness in the RO design. It is less soft than equivalent Pateks (Nautilus and Aquanaut) and less convoluted than equivalent Vacherons or Langes (really just the Overseas and the Odysseus). It is suited to being both the most elegant of the bunch (in a perpetual calendar variant or the classic Jumbo) and the most casual (in something like the ROO). In addition to arguably being the best of these 70ies designs, the AP is also the original. Even the Nautilus is slightly derivative by comparison. So the RO is just a cool watch, no matter how its made or how big its movement is. It's the RO and if you want that, that's what you have to get. There is no substitute.
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Old 19 November 2021, 09:47 AM   #24
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I think the point is less the placement between the hour markers, but rather the fact that the movement is just too small. The new movement places the date outboard, where it belongs.
Actually, on the new movement the date is just a tad too far outboard for the RO. Maybe the next gen will get it "right". Until then I'm going to make do with my 26331.
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Old 19 November 2021, 10:07 AM   #25
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Actually, on the new movement the date is just a tad too far outboard for the RO. Maybe the next gen will get it "right". Until then I'm going to make do with my 26331.
1185 is a great movement, but something to be said as well for a movement being the right size for a watch and properly filling the dial with its functions. And there you can see the 1185 was originally made for dainty little Blancpains with 36mm cases. It has a diameter of less than 26mm, while the 4401 is 32mm wide. Big difference obviously.
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Old 19 November 2021, 01:22 PM   #26
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This is an exceptional watch and I also like the subdial placement better than on the new model. The date window is actually spaced nicely between the 3 oclock and 6 oclock subdials. Try to look at it that way rather than between the hour markers and it makes sense.

Also, if it still bothers you the older 26320st ROC has everything symmetrially spaced.

Quote:
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I'm not sure if you ever tried an AP on in person but it makes a huge difference in understanding the brand. I was never a fan based on pictures and catalogues but once I tried one on, it all makes sense. It's leaps and bounds more special than a lot of other brands.
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yeah agreed, they photograph terribly. they need to be seen in the flesh under the special boutique lighting that'll bring out the best in them
Man that piece is beautiful.

My first experience with a RO was a RO on a leather strap. I have to say when I put that on, I really didn’t understand the appeal of the RO. Then in the last few months I became interested in the brand and the RO again. I started digging into it more, and since have gotten to see/try on a 41mm RO and the 39mm jumbo. Putting it on, man they wear so nice. The 41mm was too big for me, but the 39mm was quite perfect. The bracelet is just silky silky smooth. It shines like no other. It’s weird to say but I almost feel like the bracelet makes the watch. The jumbo really had an incredible caseback, though I won’t even think about the jumbo since it’s too hard to get (it really irks me anyways that it doesn’t have a seconds hand even though it wears so well).

So the 37mm and 38mm chrono are the ones I’ve been thinking about.
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Old 19 November 2021, 01:32 PM   #27
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OP, thank you for the series reply. I can share I had all the same concerns, same exact frame of thinking. And when it was all said and done, I was still happy with the watch. Both RO and ROC. I enjoy the ROC more despite bad date window and lack of display movement. I enjoy it more than Aqua (personal preference, not saying I don’t enjoy Aqua).

Re the date window, it’s kind of like so I like the current iteration of tail lights on a Porsche? No. But if I can get a GT3 today do I still take it and enjoy it even though it’s super expensive and I hate the tail lights? Yes, I still take it and enjoy.
Touché

When I was spending $5k on a watch, I would think “well this bothers me but it’s $5k”. Then when I was spending $10k on a watch, I would think “even though this bothers me, it’s $10k”. As I’ve been entering the $30k watch territory, I’ve though it has to be perfect. There can’t be anything I don’t like about this watch to buy it. But I guess nothing is perfectly made for the individual, and you certainly can very much enjoy the watch even with a peeve about a specific feature.
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Old 19 November 2021, 02:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Nav01L View Post
1185 is a great movement, but something to be said as well for a movement being the right size for a watch and properly filling the dial with its functions. And there you can see the 1185 was originally made for dainty little Blancpains with 36mm cases. It has a diameter of less than 26mm, while the 4401 is 32mm wide. Big difference obviously.
No doubt the 1185 is a bit small for the 41mm ROC, but IMO the date window on 4401 in the ROC isn't placed perfectly either, sitting on top of the minute track right at the edge of the dial (in the CODE chrono it looks to be at its intended location). Hence my comment.
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Old 19 November 2021, 06:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix View Post
No doubt the 1185 is a bit small for the 41mm ROC, but IMO the date window on 4401 in the ROC isn't placed perfectly either, sitting on top of the minute track right at the edge of the dial (in the CODE chrono it looks to be at its intended location). Hence my comment.
I completely agree. The sundials are also spaced too far apart and look to be jockeying for attention.
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Old 19 November 2021, 08:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix View Post
No doubt the 1185 is a bit small for the 41mm ROC, but IMO the date window on 4401 in the ROC isn't placed perfectly either, sitting on top of the minute track right at the edge of the dial (in the CODE chrono it looks to be at its intended location). Hence my comment.
I see what you mean, come to think of it it’s really funny they wouldn’t have tailored that more closely to the RO‘s proportions, seeing as that’s really the watch it would have it’s biggest impact in (assuming there’s still nobody desperately standing in line to get an 11,59 chrono at the wildly excessive price they’ve set for this line).
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