16803 newbie question

[Swiss Mad!]

Hi all

I have recently been thinking of purchasing a Submariner 16803.

This would be my first 'modern vintage' piece and I would just like a little advice on what to look out for before potentially making a very expensive mistake!

The 2 main things that are swaying me to the 16803 are the wonderful purple/blue patina that can start to develop on some of these old dials, and the open 6 & 9 date wheels that some (all?) models have come with.

That's it really, I just fancied adding something a little different to my modest but otherwise thoroughly modern watch collection.

My main questions/concerns are as follows.

I've never owned a vintage piece before as I've always been nervous of getting stung with something franken as tbf I wouldn't know what period correct dials/hands/crown/bezel etc would look like and I'm afraid of being 'that guy' that bought a complete lemon!

Do all 16803's have the open 6/9 date wheel?

Is there anything in particular these watches are known for (in a bad way) or are they all pretty bullet proof?

Are sellers trying to make the add sound better by listing them as 'transitional models' - aren't all 16803's transitional?

What are the features that make these models transitional - is it just the upgrade to sapphire crystal?

Some watches I've seen advertised definitely look over polished, to the point where the bezel edge is almost scalloped rather than having a nicely defined coin edge as originally intended.

If I did see a watch that I liked, but the bezel looked as described above, would an RSC service be able to supply NOS bezel replacements and if so approx. how much would I need to factor in to the negotiations cost wise to have this carried out?

Lastly, would I be better off looking for an early 16613? I understand these have the upgraded 3135 movement and similar purple/blue hue to the dials, but would they have the open 6/9 date wheels??

Many thanks in advance with any info/advice you can give me regarding this.

Regards

[stevedssd]

Hi a lot of questions and not sure I can answer them all but I'm sure others can assist. My brother was recently looking for a 16613 with blue dial and I found a 16803 for sale which we viewed and he bought. It is a stunning watch and the purple tone in the dial is lovely.

His has open 6 and 9's and I believe they all did originally. As far as transitional goes, this tends to be a term used to try and suggest a model has rarity, which the 16803 hasn't albeit there are not too many for sale in the UK at any one time. The 16803 was the first bi-metal sub and was made from circa 1984 to around 1988.

As far as costs of replacing parts, the actual bezel on a 16803 is 18k gold so would be expensive to replace. Personally I'd always look to buy a watch that is as I would want it, rather than buy one and then spend quite a bit of money to get it in a condition I would be happy with.

In terms of what to look out for, I'd suggest spending time looking on the Internet at pictures of 16803's that are for sale (e.g Chrono 24) to see what dials and bezel inserts look like, so for example if a dial has Swiss Made at 6 then it will be a replacement as original dials were Tritium and marked Swiss T>25. The bracelet should be a 93153 with 493 end links. The case should be stamped 16803 between the lugs at 12 but the case back is stamped 16800 on the inside (if shown in sellers photo's).

The accepted wisdom is to do the research on the reference first and then on the seller. Part of the fun with older watches is the hunt and doing the research, the time spent doing so is worth it.

Good luck

[Snow-Dweller]

I can’t answer your questions, but my 16803 was my first Rolex, bought new in 1986, and loved ever since!

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by stevedssd

Hi a lot of questions and not sure I can answer them all but I'm sure others can assist. My brother was recently looking for a 16613 with blue dial and I found a 16803 for sale which we viewed and he bought. It is a stunning watch and the purple tone in the dial is lovely.

His has open 6 and 9's and I believe they all did originally. As far as transitional goes, this tends to be a term used to try and suggest a model has rarity, which the 16803 hasn't albeit there are not too many for sale in the UK at any one time. The 16803 was the first bi-metal sub and was made from circa 1984 to around 1988.

As far as costs of replacing parts, the actual bezel on a 16803 is 18k gold so would be expensive to replace. Personally I'd always look to buy a watch that is as I would want it, rather than buy one and then spend quite a bit of money to get it in a condition I would be happy with.

In terms of what to look out for, I'd suggest spending time looking on the Internet at pictures of 16803's that are for sale (e.g Chrono 24) to see what dials and bezel inserts look like, so for example if a dial has Swiss Made at 6 then it will be a replacement as original dials were Tritium and marked Swiss T>25. The bracelet should be a 93153 with 493 end links. The case should be stamped 16803 between the lugs at 12 but the case back is stamped 16800 on the inside (if shown in sellers photo's).

The accepted wisdom is to do the research on the reference first and then on the seller. Part of the fun with older watches is the hunt and doing the research, the time spent doing so is worth it.

Good luck

Wow - thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response.
You pretty much covered most things - thanks once again you've been a great help.
I forgot to mention the watch in the picture is one that I'm currently watching on eBay UK.
It pretty much has all the attributes I'm looking for and although it looks like it's had bit of work done to the case it doesn't look too over polished, so may have a bid!
Many thanks once again


Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by Snow-Dweller

I can’t answer your questions, but my 16803 was my first Rolex, bought new in 1986, and loved ever since!

That's really nice you had your watch for all that time - thanks for sharing, it's made me a little easier knowing you've had yours all that time with no issues.
Many thanks once again...

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[stevedssd]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

Wow - thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response.
You pretty much covered most things - thanks once again you've been a great help.
I forgot to mention the watch in the picture is one that I'm currently watching on eBay UK.
It pretty much has all the attributes I'm looking for and although it looks like it's had bit of work done to the case it doesn't look too over polished, so may have a bid!
Many thanks once again


Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Had a quick look on the Bay, as it's a private seller be a bit cautious. It has a service bezel insert, the hands look white as did those on the one my brother bought but which in the flesh had patina and were original. I'd send seller a message and ask if hands are original or replacements. Whilst it comes with a box, red hangtag and booklet, it doesn't have the original guarantee papers which brings the value down.

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by stevedssd

Had a quick look on the Bay, as it's a private seller be a bit cautious. It has a service bezel insert, the hands look white as did those on the one my brother bought but which in the flesh had patina and were original. I'd send seller a message and ask if hands are original or replacements. Whilst it comes with a box, red hangtag and booklet, it doesn't have the original guarantee papers which brings the value down.

That's great info - you see, I would have never have known it was a service bezel insert, so I appreciate you making me aware of that.

My only worry now is if any other watches I look at have service parts fitted I wont know which like I said in my original post, worries me that I'll end up with a complete lemon.

Just out of curiosity & future reference, what is it about the insert that shows its not original?

Also, if it was replaced by Rolex at some point, is that acceptable?

Thanks for all the great advice so far...

Regards

[stevedssd]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

That's great info - you see, I would have never have known it was a service bezel insert, so I appreciate you making me aware of that.

My only worry now is if any other watches I look at have service parts fitted I wont know which like I said in my original post, worries me that I'll end up with a complete lemon.

Just out of curiosity & future reference, what is it about the insert that shows its not original?

Also, if it was replaced by Rolex at some point, is that acceptable?

Thanks for all the great advice so far...

Regards

The bezel insert has a Luminova pip and the font is different to originals. I've attached below a photo of an original insert for comparison, have a look at the 4 in 40 and see how different it is and the pip has a less shiney appearance, on some it will turn a yellow or light brown colour and will have no lume.

There is nothing wrong with original Rolex service parts and it is always a matter of personal preference as to what someone is prepared to have as replaced or original. The general rule of thumb in vintage is the closer to original the better but for a 16803, I personally would want original dial and hands and a case that has had minimal and good polishing. I'd also want papers unless the price was significantly reduced to reflect their absence.

If you do a search on Chrono 24 you will see a New Old Stock 16803 for sale at £10,500 in the UK. Whilst it's not for me personally especially at that price, the photo's give you a good idea of what a 16803 looked like when new. There are also some nice full set examples to see what would have come with a 16803 originally.

Hope this helps

[Lgear080]

The 16803 is a really particular piece... if I it were my money I’d look for a clean, early 16613 instead. You can always find and fit a patina dial.

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by stevedssd

The bezel insert has a Luminova pip and the font is different to originals. I've attached below a photo of an original insert for comparison, have a look at the 4 in 40 and see how different it is and the pip has a less shiney appearance, on some it will turn a yellow or light brown colour and will have no lume.

There is nothing wrong with original Rolex service parts and it is always a matter of personal preference as to what someone is prepared to have as replaced or original. The general rule of thumb in vintage is the closer to original the better but for a 16803, I personally would want original dial and hands and a case that has had minimal and good polishing. I'd also want papers unless the price was significantly reduced to reflect their absence.

If you do a search on Chrono 24 you will see a New Old Stock 16803 for sale at £10,500 in the UK. Whilst it's not for me personally especially at that price, the photo's give you a good idea of what a 16803 looked like when new. There are also some nice full set examples to see what would have come with a 16803 originally.

Hope this helps

Massive thanks for all your advise - will take it on board whilst continuing my search.

Regards

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by Lgear080

The 16803 is a really particular piece... if I it were my money I’d look for a clean, early 16613 instead. You can always find and fit a patina dial.

Appreciate the comment, but one of things I'm particularly drawn to on the 16803 as well as the dial is the open 6 & 9 date wheel.

Do you know of any examples of early 16613's that had these?

Thanks.

[Lgear080]

Just a matter of buying the datewheel

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by Lgear080

Just a matter of buying the datewheel

Not sure I'm 100% comfortable with that to be honest.

If I buy an early 16613, fit a patina dial from another watch & non original open 6 date wheel from a 16803, wouldn't I just end up with the type of franken piece I'm so desperate not to get stung with in the first place?

[TAGLIA]

calibre 3035 datewheels won't work on cal 3135, one is clockwise one is counterclockwise.