Market at a top

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I'm afraid I don't understand the kudos standpoint, I don't tell friends anything about my pieces and I can honestly say I can't remember anyone commenting on any of my pieces.
PS You can have mine at 4 x retail.

That’s because you, like most on here are a connoisseur of fine horology and you are discreet. You know your friends and hopefully they know you, I’m sure if a friend raised genuine interest you’d be singing like a canary about all the crap you know about watches and they wouldn’t shut you up.

The guys I’m taking about don’t see or care about the quality workmanship, they just see ”kool Rollies and Pahtech”. These guys got a good bonus so take a fine tuned, luxury sports car, add a big bore exhaust, re-map and pimp it into loud, misfiring abomination. They black PVD or ice up the hottest most desirable watches, wear a suit jacket, blue jeans and brown shoes to look cool in the office. Surly you must all have seen these guys around, I am lucky to know a few, usually they are great fun but have no taste or style.

[GreenLantern]

I don't see the correlation with houses.

There are no two houses that are exactly alike.

There are thousands upon thousands of 5711's that are exactly alike.

[GreenLantern]

Also, I'd never pay 4x retail for anything no matter how much I wanted it. But that's just me.

Granted, I suspect there's at least 2 or 3 others on TRF that would be on my side. :)

Furthermore, if I'm paying 4x list for a house, I'd rather commission the building of the damn thing myself and actually make it 100% what I want, instead of paying 4x for someone else's design/requirements.

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by martinr

I thought about it and if a “hot watch” is what makes you feel good about yourself especially after paying four times retail maybe you should see a therapist.

I could say the same about anyone stupid enough to think that ANY modern Rolex or luxury watch at retail is good value for money. Hands up, who honestly feels that a time only OP is great value at £4,100 when a Seiko 5 day date automatic is £130, or a steel Daytona is really worth a 3x premium over a Speedmaster. What sane person on here feels that a platinum Daytona at retail is worth 2x premium over the gold version when platinum is only 35% heavier than gold and 18k gold has a similar scrap (spot) price. It’s not finished or machined better and has the same movement and bezel.

What about the fantastic value of the 5167r and 5164r only a £13,000 premium for the same movement and finishing as the steel versions. It’s a bargain because it is a different colour and has a few hundred £ of gold that’s easier to work and finish.

You can fool me and each other but you can’t fool yourself, everyone buying luxury watches including US on this forum buy Rolex or Patek for the same reason. We are all being flash and extravagant because we can, and we have the means. It’s nothing to do with quality, design or workmanship it’s to show off, its just no one on here wants to admit it especially me.

[Fat_ninja]

Savage

[Bearxj86]

I asked the group which watch can beat the Nautilus in the 5 criteria and the answers I got were :

1) Other Nautiluses
2) Watches like 5970 and 2499
3) Vintage Daytonas

Pretty much every cited watch was either more expensive or several times more expensive than a 5711 blue.

As for "horology" - we all can get a JLC perpetual calendar tourbillon for $45k so I don't fully buy the horology argument fully.

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Also, I'd never pay 4x retail for anything no matter how much I wanted it. But that's just me.

Granted, I suspect there's at least 2 or 3 others on TRF that would be on my side. :)

Furthermore, if I'm paying 4x list for a house, I'd rather commission the building of the damn thing myself and actually make it 100% what I want, instead of paying 4x for someone else's design/requirements.

I think the house thing was just an example, and not meant to be literally 4x. But in the UK paying over the asking price on property is common practice, especially if the area or local school is a good. It’s not unusual for 25% premiums and houses with offers can be marketed right up to exchange. We had an issue with gazumping, where the seller pulled out of the sale for a higher offer after everything was agreed, it was a huge problem as we already sold and had to do the same.

I think of the grey steel market as an auction, you bid up to what your comfortable with. Some prefer to have just a fixed price but then in the current market you may never find what you want for YOUR fixed price.

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

Savage

You and your kid know I’m right fat boy, sorry ninja, and when you get a TD I will be sooo jealous and YOU know it.

[Bearxj86]

When I wear my 5711 blue versus my 5170P (pretty similar price point in grey). Yes the finish, the diamonds, the platinum on the 5170P are all great and they are both ABSOLUTELY stunning and anyone would feel lucky to wear either of them. However when you compare them on the 5 criteria:

1) Brand image - Tie
2) Wearability - Nautilus wins
3) Design - Nautilus (legendary design), 5170(p) (excellent design and chrono)
4) Hype and desirability (social proof) - Nautilus
5) Production volume - 5170P however the overall 5170 in different metals was a 10 year run

Bear in mind that the 5170P is a $95k MSRP watch that trades around $80k.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

You and your kid know I’m right fat boy, sorry ninja, and when you get a TD I will be sooo jealous and YOU know it.

lol :)

[bonsai-man]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

I asked the group which watch can beat the Nautilus in the 5 criteria and the answers I got were :

1) Other Nautiluses
2) Watches like 5970 and 2499
3) Vintage Daytonas

Pretty much every cited watch was either more expensive or several times more expensive than a 5711 blue.

As for "horology" - we all can get a JLC perpetual calendar tourbillon for $45k so I don't fully buy the horology argument fully.

Exactly and agreed, show everyone at work your £100,000 Datograph and get a meh, then see the reaction to my Rolex OP. The layman doesn’t know JLC or ALS they just see an expensive Rollie, uncivilised but true.

[bonsai-man]

Bye all I’m off to bed, can’t wait to read my morning roasting.

[martinr]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

I could say the same about anyone stupid enough to think that ANY modern Rolex or luxury watch at retail is good value for money. Hands up, who honestly feels that a time only OP is great value at £4,100 when a Seiko 5 day date automatic is £130, or a steel Daytona is really worth a 3x premium over a Speedmaster. What sane person on here feels that a platinum Daytona at retail is worth 2x premium over the gold version when platinum is only 35% heavier than gold and 18k gold has a similar scrap (spot) price. It’s not finished or machined better and has the same movement and bezel.

What about the fantastic value of the 5167r and 5164r only a £13,000 premium for the same movement and finishing as the steel versions. It’s a bargain because it is a different colour and has a few hundred £ of gold that’s easier to work and finish.

You can fool me and each other but you can’t fool yourself, everyone buying luxury watches including US on this forum buy Rolex or Patek for the same reason. We are all being flash and extravagant because we can, and we have the means. It’s nothing to do with quality, design or workmanship it’s to show off, its just no one on here wants to admit it especially me.

I’m glad you didn’t take my comment the wrong way but retail is what it is, paying four times over is insanity in my opinion. In fact, I try and buy at retail less whatever discount I can wrangle out of my AD even if it’s only picking up the sales tax. I’m not sure we’re all buying these watches to show off though, I really do appreciate the quality and workmanship, if I really wanted to show off I’d buy an RM, then I’d give it to my daughter and post pictures of it looking huge on her skinny wrist.

[GreenLantern]

Paying 4X retail is insanity in any circumstance, in my opinion.

Heck, I'd argue that >=2X is insanity.

Below that is debatable depending on the actual product, service, or situation.

[liljctl]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Bear in mind that the 5170P is a $95k MSRP watch that trades around $80k.

Where do you go to get it trade for 80k?

[DeeTee]

5711 and 5712 are the exceptions in the watch business.
White gold Jumbo commands 3x also.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

I asked the group which watch can beat the Nautilus in the 5 criteria and the answers I got were :

1) Other Nautiluses
2) Watches like 5970 and 2499
3) Vintage Daytonas

Pretty much every cited watch was either more expensive or several times more expensive than a 5711 blue.

As for "horology" - we all can get a JLC perpetual calendar tourbillon for $45k so I don't fully buy the horology argument fully.

Originally Posted by bearxj86

When I wear my 5711 blue versus my 5170P (pretty similar price point in grey). Yes the finish, the diamonds, the platinum on the 5170P are all great and they are both ABSOLUTELY stunning and anyone would feel lucky to wear either of them. However when you compare them on the 5 criteria:

1) Brand image - Tie
2) Wearability - Nautilus wins
3) Design - Nautilus (legendary design), 5170(p) (excellent design and chrono)
4) Hype and desirability (social proof) - Nautilus
5) Production volume - 5170P however the overall 5170 in different metals was a 10 year run

Bear in mind that the 5170P is a $95k MSRP watch that trades around $80k.

The only reason you got those replies is because you included 4) hype and 5) production volume

The nautilus is the most overhyped watch on the planet so everything else is disqualified. You tailored the criteria to get to the answer of 5711. Without the volume restriction many would argue Daytona and GMT hands down.

When did you get the 5170P? I want one lol 80 seems high I’ve seen them new for low 70s. I don’t care what you say Jin the 5170P blows the 5711 out of the water and across the beach.

[ap1]

Originally Posted by martinr

I’m glad you didn’t take my comment the wrong way but retail is what it is, paying four times over is insanity in my opinion. In fact, I try and buy at retail less whatever discount I can wrangle out of my AD even if it’s only picking up the sales tax. I’m not sure we’re all buying these watches to show off though, I really do appreciate the quality and workmanship, if I really wanted to show off I’d buy an RM, then I’d give it to my daughter and post pictures of it looking huge on her skinny wrist.

[ap1]

Originally Posted by GB-man

The only reason you got those replies is because you included 4) hype and 5) production volume



The nautilus is the most overhyped watch on the planet so everything else is disqualified. You tailored the criteria to get to the answer of 5711. Without the volume restriction many would argue Daytona and GMT hands down.



When did you get the 5170P? I want one lol 80 seems high I’ve seen them new for low 70s. I don’t care what you say Jin the 5170P blows the 5711 out of the water and across the beach.

I love the nautilus as much as the next guy. And I’m frustrated waiting on one. BUT, sportwatch craze and all the 5170p is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever owned and worn.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

I think the 5711 blue in steel is the perfect watch in all 5 factors:
1) Brand equity
2) Design
3) Production numbers
4) Hype and desirability
5) Wearability

Name me another watch that can beat it in all 5 categories? You may have to go to the vintage steel daytonas to find something like that.

+1.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

I think the 5711 blue in steel is the perfect watch in all 5 factors:
1) Brand equity
2) Design
3) Production numbers
4) Hype and desirability
5) Wearability

Name me another watch that can beat it in all 5 categories? You may have to go to the vintage steel daytonas to find something like that.

i agree however 1-4 make #5 irrelevant. Who wears a watch that has factor 1-4? Idiots

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by ap1

I love the nautilus as much as the next guy. And I’m frustrated waiting on one. BUT, sportwatch craze and all the 5170p is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever owned and worn.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Love it, made an offer on one but apparently I didn’t offer enough

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by GB-man

The only reason you got those replies is because you included 4) hype and 5) production volume



The nautilus is the most overhyped watch on the planet so everything else is disqualified. You tailored the criteria to get to the answer of 5711. Without the volume restriction many would argue Daytona and GMT hands down.



When did you get the 5170P? I want one lol 80 seems high I’ve seen them new for low 70s. I don’t care what you say Jin the 5170P blows the 5711 out of the water and across the beach.

Tom I’ve been on a bit of a buying rampage. Not good. However I do agree that in aesthetics and beauty the 5170p has got to be the most beautiful case and dial i’ve seen. Very fortunate to have both. I got it in the low 70s last week.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GreenLantern]

While we're on the grey market rampage, here's some examples of things that drive me nuts:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0fWTern8Mk/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzUrP3lH8Ya/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0GToIxA06j/

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

While we're on the grey market rampage, here's some examples of things that drive me nuts:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0fWTern8Mk/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzUrP3lH8Ya/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0GToIxA06j/

grrrrrr

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

While we're on the grey market rampage, here's some examples of things that drive me nuts:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0fWTern8Mk/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzUrP3lH8Ya/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0GToIxA06j/

Originally Posted by bearxj86

grrrrrr

Brand new. In stock now.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Tom I’ve been on a bit of a buying rampage. Not good. However I do agree that in aesthetics and beauty the 5170p has got to be the most beautiful case and dial i’ve seen. Very fortunate to have both. I got it in the low 70s last week.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hmm, been informed i cant flip my (wifes) 5711, but to get a 5170P.......?

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Tom I’ve been on a bit of a buying rampage. Not good. However I do agree that in aesthetics and beauty the 5170p has got to be the most beautiful case and dial i’ve seen. Very fortunate to have both. I got it in the low 70s last week.

Fantastic ! Hang on to that one Jin, it’s gorgeous and a downright deal in this market if you ask me

Originally Posted by dchang81

hmm, been informed i cant flip my (wifes) 5711, but to get a 5170P.......?

Tell her it’s got diamonds! And it’s platinum!

[pam66]

Originally Posted by bonsai-man

I think the house thing was just an example, and not meant to be literally 4x. But in the UK paying over the asking price on property is common practice, especially if the area or local school is a good. It’s not unusual for 25% premiums and houses with offers can be marketed right up to exchange. We had an issue with gazumping, where the seller pulled out of the sale for a higher offer after everything was agreed, it was a huge problem as we already sold and had to do the same.

I think of the grey steel market as an auction, you bid up to what your comfortable with. Some prefer to have just a fixed price but then in the current market you may never find what you want for YOUR fixed price.

just wait a few months and the problem will be no more:::)))

[pam66]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Tom I’ve been on a bit of a buying rampage. Not good. However I do agree that in aesthetics and beauty the 5170p has got to be the most beautiful case and dial i’ve seen. Very fortunate to have both. I got it in the low 70s last week.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

those two watches make a lot of sense. the 5170P is in my book the most beautiful patek in the non-sports line up. i am going to hang on to mine long term, without any expectations though on its rise in the market.