How do you survive in this situation

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

I am just back from the "Rare Handcrafts 2021" exhibition at the Patek Philipp Salon in Geneva.

It was, without doubt superb, I was excited. (We were not allowed to take photos, sorry.)

However I made the mistake to talk to my seller (I have history at the salon and spent an amount most of the people never will save in their life). I was simply told (translation) to buy watches I explicitly said I dislike so we can "wait but we cannot promise anything".
Frustrated, I went to the Rolex owned store in Geneva (I have also a little history there). Simply said: forget it, nothing to buy here for the next 10 years. Except awful pieces rolex does not want to retire.
Fpjourne: same, but less years.

In the meantime, you can open chrono24, and you can find all the watches you want. So they obviously sell to flippers (which is not the habit in Switzerland). Why are they not encouraging personal engraving to prevent that?

I understand that the manufactures do not want to increase the volume because they acknowledge it is an anomaly and want to control the landing and avoid a crash.

As an enthusiast, I am frustrated, losing a lot of energy and time for nothing. There is nothing new with my story.

But honestly, today, I only see one way out: I quit this passion.

If you felt that also, how did you survive this situation?

Wow, so at a PP owned Salon they are telling you to keep spending on watches which do not sell in order to get an application piece? They could have just cut the undesirable pieces from the catalogue. I can expect this behavior from some ADs but even at the company owned store is too much to bear.

Did the FPJ boutique also tell you to buy some more pieces before you can get what you want? May I inquire what piece you are interested in? Is a a black label or an application piece like the MP, TV or Astronoimcs? Because when I was inquiring, they seem to be quite straightforward and just told me that their production is sold out until 2022 and I will need to wait. But the subject of buying other watches in order to get one I like was never brought up. Given their small production and the number of people wanting a CO or RQ, a wait of 3-4 years seems reasonable. And since they have basically nothing to sell, it is also surprising that they suggest you to buy "something"

[QuantumOceanLawyer]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I thought most of the AP boutiques are not directly owned by AP at least in the US? The one I dealt with is basically an AP only store still owned by a local chain.

And I think it is also true with a lot of the Rolex store here. For example, Toureau runs the Rolex "boutique" in San Francisco.

Most are Westime owned.


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[Breizh]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Wow, so at a PP owned Salon they are telling you to keep spending on watches which do not sell in order to get an application piece? They could have just cut the undesirable pieces from the catalogue. I can expect this behavior from some ADs but even at the company owned store is too much to bear.

Did the FPJ boutique also tell you to buy some more pieces before you can get what you want? May I inquire what piece you are interested in? Is a a black label or an application piece like the MP, TV or Astronoimcs? Because when I was inquiring, they seem to be quite straightforward and just told me that their production is sold out until 2022 and I will need to wait. But the subject of buying other watches in order to get one I like was never brought up. Given their small production and the number of people wanting a CO or RQ, a wait of 3-4 years seems reasonable. And since they have basically nothing to sell, it is also surprising that they suggest you to buy "something"

I also found FPJ to be a lot more straight forward. Very refreshing.
I stopped by the boutique last year with quite a few pieces available. Now everything is a 2 year wait.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Breizh

I also found FPJ to be a lot more straight forward. Very refreshing.
I stopped by the boutique last year with quite a few pieces available. Now everything is a 2 year wait.

Yes. Even just last year at this time you can still find CS in store. Now the boutique only have social events to know the collector but nothing to sell

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Yes. Even just last year at this time you can still find CS in store. Now the boutique only have social events to know the collector but nothing to sell

Indeed. That's because since last year, watches have become an alternative investment to crypto.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Indeed. That's because since last year, watches have become an alternative investment to crypto.

I got lucky and ordered mine before this craze. Except I just learned last week that the second watch I ordered for my wife is cancelled as the manufacture decided that it does not want to make it.

[Partekular]

How happy would all the complainers be if the handmade watch suddenly became mass produced? Part of the attraction of the purchase is the hand made, artisan image/element. Google VEBLEN GOOD.

If you want immediate satisfaction start collecting Swatches?

Patek is happy with its exquisite production and went so far as to shun the 5711. They are not really swimming happily in the stainless steel tool watch market. Rolex do it better. If they can survive by simply ramping up prices until there is resistance why not?

They need to continue shrinking their ADs until they clamp down on the flippers as much as is possible. The best way to do that is not sell a £25,000 watch which ‘sells’ for £100,000 on the grey market. Raise it’s retail price to £100,000.

When the watch craze and easy money era ends they can retrench production with Nautilus and Aqaunauts.

[fsprow]

I guess I don’t compare “survival” with buying watches.

Yes, things have changed. As they say, “that’s life”.

[autojewels]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Here's where enjoying a wide variety greatly helps. Cartier, Tag Heuer, Panerai, Bvlgari, MB&F, Omega.... or even a fun Bell&Ross.

I agree with you...Try new things you may still love the hobby.

[bruinmd]

There is only one model I want to re acquire and will pay a premium for, and that's it.
If this current market continues, I'm moving on from most Rolex models as well as wasting time/energy waiting on another Nautilus.

In the meantime, I have discovered other brands: specifically GS. I am in love with my snowflake more now than when I acquired it a year ago.
What you get for the price is incredible and there is no wait. Tell me another comparable watch under $10k with the level of hand finishing on each model that matches GS?
I can't think of one. So for me, I've moved on and if my AD surprises me with a Cermit or a 5712/5726 blue dial, etc, great. But I'm not holding my breath not do I care anymore. And I suspect I won't be alone. Once this happens on a larger scale and demand goes down, only then will the Greys be brought to their knees.

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

I am just back from the "Rare Handcrafts 2021" exhibition at the Patek Philipp Salon in Geneva.

It was, without doubt superb, I was excited. (We were not allowed to take photos, sorry.)

However I made the mistake to talk to my seller (I have history at the salon and spent an amount most of the people never will save in their life). I was simply told (translation) to buy watches I explicitly said I dislike so we can "wait but we cannot promise anything".
Frustrated, I went to the Rolex owned store in Geneva (I have also a little history there). Simply said: forget it, nothing to buy here for the next 10 years. Except awful pieces rolex does not want to retire.
Fpjourne: same, but less years.

In the meantime, you can open chrono24, and you can find all the watches you want. So they obviously sell to flippers (which is not the habit in Switzerland). Why are they not encouraging personal engraving to prevent that?

I understand that the manufactures do not want to increase the volume because they acknowledge it is an anomaly and want to control the landing and avoid a crash.

As an enthusiast, I am frustrated, losing a lot of energy and time for nothing. There is nothing new with my story.

But honestly, today, I only see one way out: I quit this passion.

If you felt that also, how did you survive this situation?

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Imagine the AD begging us to buy the 5990/1R and 5231J at 50% off and we tell them no, we will get it from grey dealer at 80% off instead. Then they will throw other freebies like a free first class trip to a dream vacation to close the deal. We customers deserve better and we should not be paying MSRP for 5990/1R and 5231J like ever.

I can sooner imagine all the people living life in peace.

[CountryBoy]

I texted one of my ADs yesterday to ask if she had a couple of Rolexes for me. She wrote back that they had nothing and on top of it Rolex is shut down for 3 weeks.

It dawned on me that is really bad for them. The salespeople not having the products to sell.

[Xerxes77]

Originally Posted by azizu

There are still some good ADs out there, yes there are still ADs who play games (Rolex AD in Saudi is one of them) however there are still some good ADs.

perhaps there is a misunderstanding among some SA on the difference between marketing lines other than Nautilus and Aquanaut and pushing you to buy watches you clearly mentioned you don't like.

Agree with you…. I found one of this AD….. REAL AD not seller to grey market……unfortunately honesty it’s not value anymore by Patek….. only in Stern declaration….. after 32 years they close collaboration with this AD
When I hear that I understand that what Mr. Stern explain to are just lie and words who sustain the Patek image….. but Patek like too grey market and also this situation…… because this help Patek to sell and the watches who are sit years in window otherwise…..
Just my 2 cents….

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by AK797

I can sooner imagine all the people living life in peace.

Wait, are you saying that's NOT likely to happen?

[The Argonaut]

I seriously cut down on reading this forum, switched to other hobbies, and reading more widely around other brands.

I still check in, but much, much less. I’m just not interested in reading about the incessant conversations regarding “shortages,” “flipping,” “investments,” “Instagram”… Its killing a passion I’ve had since I was very young. The good thing is this situation will pass. In the meantime, stepping away from this forum and a few others has served to remind me they’re just watches.


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[AF_Rob]

Well OP, like you said, if you spent more money than most will save in a lifetime and you’re still not happy, I have to assume you never will be.

You are right, the games suck. My past few transactions (buying and selling) have been with the same people.

I’m content where I’m at, thankfully. I’ve circled back to where I started, Seiko and Oris if I add in the future.


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[QuantumOceanLawyer]

Originally Posted by AF_Rob

I’m content where I’m at, thankfully. I’ve circled back to where I started, Seiko and Oris if I add in the future.


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I love Oris. I’ve been buying a lot from them too. Great watches to sneak in between bigger purchases.


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[Aquinas]

Originally Posted by Partekular

How happy would all the complainers be if the handmade watch suddenly became mass produced? Part of the attraction of the purchase is the hand made, artisan image/element. Google VEBLEN GOOD.

Better yet, actually read the Theory of the Leisure Class. You will understand why you value watches (which are in essence useless by now). Posts like the initial post (no offense meant) which equal buying a useless status symbol with survival, really prove Veblen true.
Thing is, once you understand your own psychological motivation, you’ll think more rational - personally, I’m not spending money on products that don’t increase my actual well being, but only my self perceived status.

[QuantumOceanLawyer]

Originally Posted by Aquinas

Better yet, actually read the Theory of the Leisure Class. You will understand why you value watches (which are in essence useless by now). Posts like the initial post (no offense meant) which equal buying a useless status symbol with survival, really prove Veblen true.
Thing is, once you understand your own psychological motivation, you’ll think more rational - personally, I’m not spending money on products that don’t increase my actual well being, but only my self perceived status.

<giant eye roll> No one really equates it with survival. Maybe our survival in the hobby. It’s not a status symbol for most people in here. I live in a very rural area. For the most part I’m the only one who sees most of my watches and the people who do see them have no clue what they are. I buy them because I connect with either the artistry or engineering of the piece.

[CountryBoy]

Ditto QuantumOceanLawyer,

My horse loves me as is, and if the folks i deal with find out how much i spend on watches, they think i'm nutter than i'm. I love to enjoy the beauty in my own solitude.

Looks like the poor soul (OP) used a word (survival) in frustration. Anyways generated some fun discussion.

Originally Posted by QuantumOceanLawyer

<giant eye roll> No one really equates it with survival. Maybe our survival in the hobby. It’s not a status symbol for most people in here. I live in a very rural area. For the most part I’m the only one who sees most of my watches and the people who do see them have no clue what they are. I buy them because I connect with either the artistry or engineering of the piece.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by QuantumOceanLawyer

Speaking of buying from independents, does anyone have any experience with Czapek? I have been debating buying an Antartique and haven’t talked to anyone who has personally had one on.


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I have one on order to be delivered in the next month or two. Such a pleasurable buying experience. They are incredibly responsive and make you feel like part of the family. There are a few forum members who have posted their experiences after some ownership time.

To be fair to FPJ, they were similarly open and friendly when they had pieces to buy a few years ago. I ended up picking up a pre-owned piece before they took off. Still a great manufacture, but what are they to do when they produce such a small number of pieces annually? Even though I won't get another one in the next decade, I hope that they don't ramp up production, it will kill the charm, flippers be damned.

I'm not really a collector, I have 4 timepieces I love, and I never flip, just accumulate verrrrrrry slowly. I'm that guy that would love an AP RO but will realistically never get one from a boutique. But I'm okay with that. The constrained supply from Rolex, PP, AP and huge demand for luxury watches has really opened up customer eyes and wallets to alternatives, and allowed for small independents and other previously less popular brands to be profitable and take chances that were previously too risky.

[QuantumOceanLawyer]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

I have one on order to be delivered in the next month or two. Such a pleasurable buying experience. They are incredibly responsive and make you feel like part of the family. There are a few forum members who have posted their experiences after some ownership time.

To be fair to FPJ, they were similarly open and friendly when they had pieces to buy a few years ago. I ended up picking up a pre-owned piece before they took off. Still a great manufacture, but what are they to do when they produce such a small number of pieces annually? Even though I won't get another one in the next decade, I hope that they don't ramp up production, it will kill the charm, flippers be damned.

I'm not really a collector, I have 4 timepieces I love, and I never flip, just accumulate verrrrrrry slowly. I'm that guy that would love an AP RO but will realistically never get one from a boutique. But I'm okay with that. The constrained supply from Rolex, PP, AP and huge demand for luxury watches has really opened up customer eyes and wallets to alternatives, and allowed for small independents and other previously less popular brands to be profitable and take chances that were previously too risky.

It’s very refreshing to hear. Everyone I have talked to has universal praise for them. I think it’s a direction I want to go in. Thanks!


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[llngoc]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

I have one on order to be delivered in the next month or two. Such a pleasurable buying experience. They are incredibly responsive and make you feel like part of the family. There are a few forum members who have posted their experiences after some ownership time.

To be fair to FPJ, they were similarly open and friendly when they had pieces to buy a few years ago. I ended up picking up a pre-owned piece before they took off. Still a great manufacture, but what are they to do when they produce such a small number of pieces annually? Even though I won't get another one in the next decade, I hope that they don't ramp up production, it will kill the charm, flippers be damned.

I'm not really a collector, I have 4 timepieces I love, and I never flip, just accumulate verrrrrrry slowly. I'm that guy that would love an AP RO but will realistically never get one from a boutique. But I'm okay with that. The constrained supply from Rolex, PP, AP and huge demand for luxury watches has really opened up customer eyes and wallets to alternatives, and allowed for small independents and other previously less popular brands to be profitable and take chances that were previously too risky.

For FPJ, the boutique is very transparent and pleasant to deal with. I would rather wait for 2-3 years than having them become a 2000 pieces per year manufacture. Also, since everything is hot, there is no bundling practice needed. Everyone just wait so that’s fair and square.

I think I read somewhere that their goal is to maintain the same production but in order to grow revenue, the ASP may shift upward. (I cannot recall where I read about it, but it makes sense)

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by llngoc

For FPJ, the boutique is very transparent and pleasant to deal with. I would rather wait for 2-3 years than having them become a 2000 pieces per year manufacture. Also, since everything is hot, there is no bundling practice needed. Everyone just wait so that’s fair and square.

I think I read somewhere that their goal is to maintain the same production but in order to grow revenue, the ASP may shift upward. (I cannot recall where I read about it, but it makes sense)

FPJ Geneva Boutique is great to deal with (at least on enquiries as no purchases yet). UK AD’s are very poor, I do mean poor!

[CountryBoy]

Originally Posted by Russell996

FPJ Geneva Boutique is great to deal with (at least on enquiries as no purchases yet). UK AD’s are very poor, I do mean poor!

I vouch for the Tokyo shop. Gorgeous shop, plenty on display (certainly so pre-covid), nice people. In fact my favorite FPJ shop besides the one in Geneva.

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by CountryBoy

I vouch for the Tokyo shop. Gorgeous shop, plenty on display (certainly so pre-covid), nice people. In fact my favorite FPJ shop besides the one in Geneva.

The store in Tokyo is gorgeous, and has that low-key, efficient service that I so love about Japan. I found FPJ after they super-sized the cases, so not for me and my small wrists, but it's a great brand and outfit.

Regarding the Czapek Antarctique: I have one. It's great, and the company's relationship with its customers is second to none.

[rockdrock]

Originally Posted by IBDOC

AP is clearly moving towards full integration. They’re forcing the Bucherer-run monobrand boutique in Zürich to close in order to pop up their own. That’s the largest retailer in the world, in one of the most.

This is very interesting news. Is this official? I have tried to see if I can get some good pieces from them but think they dont take me seriously. I am a long, long time Bucherer customer.

I sympathize with OP. I have often felt that way in the current ‘market’.

My solution:
1. F@%k those ADs. I am so over it. I don’t mind playing a little flirt game going back and forth. But, even when you display love for the watch and commitment not to flip, the watches are going elsewhere. I mean, look at those horrid YouTube The Grey Market TimePiece Gentleman CryptoCurrency CRM Jewelers vids. That tells you everything. I am glad for their success but that tells me that collectors, real ones, will not necessary get their desired pieces. It is all about short term big profits and I understand that.
2. Enjoy life. I am taking older pieces I have not worn and loving them again. It is actually really great. I took out my first watch - an Armand Nicolet. I know, funny. I am enjoying and wearing it a lot. Be content with your current status.
3. Look elsewhere. Some of you have seen my other postings. I am looking into Romain Gauthier, Gronefeld and the likes. Great people, terrific products, passion, and respond to questions from customers. I am also looking into Cartier and Breguet.
4. Patience. Patience. Patience. Let the perfect watch also find you.

I hope this is helpful, OP. Just know that you are not alone in that scenario.

[amgdriver63]

I totally get it I have had a similar situation collecting burbon. I finally said to hell with it and I dumping my collection to raise watch money. Inhave been frustrated all year. Im on the " list" for any steel PP sport watch -6 yr wait -Zero- With PP at least u can find things that dont suck that are available-Calatrava travel time -5227 ect. BUT. with Rolex its a different story
When u get into available picks at your AD its pretty dismal. Buy it for cred. Hate it. Font ever wear it. Flip for loss. Been there done that. Just when I was giving up all hope I just scored a Batman and a James Cameron in 1 week at my AD. jC was a 3-1:2 yr wait. Had to give up a nice watch tonget the Batman but at least something. Ingot like 7 Rolex in 2019. 2in 2020 and 2 so far in 2021. Im on some lists that have yielded zero. 6 years and I cant even get a lousey steel Aquanaut from patek. Its a frustrating waiting game for sure

[zengineer]

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

I am just back from the "Rare Handcrafts 2021" exhibition at the Patek Philipp Salon in Geneva.



It was, without doubt superb, I was excited. (We were not allowed to take photos, sorry.)



However I made the mistake to talk to my seller (I have history at the salon and spent an amount most of the people never will save in their life). I was simply told (translation) to buy watches I explicitly said I dislike so we can "wait but we cannot promise anything".

Frustrated, I went to the Rolex owned store in Geneva (I have also a little history there). Simply said: forget it, nothing to buy here for the next 10 years. Except awful pieces rolex does not want to retire.

Fpjourne: same, but less years.



In the meantime, you can open chrono24, and you can find all the watches you want. So they obviously sell to flippers (which is not the habit in Switzerland). Why are they not encouraging personal engraving to prevent that?



I understand that the manufactures do not want to increase the volume because they acknowledge it is an anomaly and want to control the landing and avoid a crash.



As an enthusiast, I am frustrated, losing a lot of energy and time for nothing. There is nothing new with my story.



But honestly, today, I only see one way out: I quit this passion.



If you felt that also, how did you survive this situation?

I'm sure your watch shopping was a disappointment...but I think you can "survive."

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[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

How much?

Not enough it appears…

There are always bigger fish out there, unless you’re Jeff Bezos, who could completely buy Patek Phillipe (the company)without any financial strain whatsoever, but seemingly couldn’t care less about watches.

As ego bruising as it is, there are just bigger spenders out there and they will get priority.