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Old 3 April 2020, 08:22 AM   #1
francoamerican
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My critique of much of the current Patek mens dress collections

In a zoom meeting right now, so i wrote this tome:

I believe there is plenty of opportunity for non aqua/nautilus patek turnover based on the strength of the brand and history as a whole. However, much of the core current collections is quite poor IMO. What all of the current dress collections lack is a tasteful amount of brushed finishing to compliment polished finishing. Instead it's all too blingy. (other than the otherwise flawed 5196 which does have some nice brushed finishing) You really need to have some brushed finishing to allow for a smart casual strap to look right (the steel goldberger book shows how great semi-casual straps can look on round pateks)

A partial type-by-type critique:

Round PM Perpetual Calendars:

Annual Calendars don't seem as collectible for the long run and if someone wants a classic Patek PC there really aren't good options:

You're left with either the 240 movement from the 3940 shoehorned into a larger case (with the terrible bunching and shrunken numbers) or the flawed 5320g.

Literally a new, white metal 3940 without the "stain" on the dial would be more desirable than any current options.

Seriously, in 2020 making a perpetual calendar is not like it was in 1920s - make perpetuals instead of ACs. Lange can afford to make movements that fit the case with much less revenue. Especially with the relatively so-so finishing standards we see right now for Patek.

PCC:

The courier/typerwriter font, chin issues and other shrunken fonts - the patek PCC should be a no brainer with cost the only hurdle - it shouldn't be a compromise design nor finishing.

Chronograph

The prior 5170 breguet was great - everything else 5170 has these weird stick hands. Definitely could have done with partial brushed case. I love brushed white gold not to beat a dead horse.

Current - 5172 has the wrong kind of case for the style of the rest of the watch

Can you imagine a 1463 inspired 38-40mm chrono? with Breguets in steel?! like the steel Vacheron CDV? With a GF style bracelet?! I'd take that at 70K over a 70K nautilus and then patek can keep the money instead of making someone buy a 5205 that they don't want. It can be it's own watch too - but give us what we want and we'll buy it!

Calatrava

A manual wind calatrava with the correct size movement, obviously.

A three hand date calatrava cased watch - again not rocket science (likely coming in 2021)

I really would like to see a calatrava that is free from being a rolex datejust derivative. Meaning no single aperture for the day of the month, and manual wind instead of automatic with a full rotor. Either a full pointer date or a subdial pointer.

The 6006 is close to being “its own thing” but plenty of opportunities to be creative with other calatravas

I like much of the 5212a, but the weekly calendar, the whimsical font and the aperture date put my off - especially at the price.

Ironically, while they're trying to move demand away from nautilus and aquanaut the best executed releases in recent years have been aquanaut and nautilus variations. The 5168,5968 and of course 5740. Give me a good "dress" watch and i certainly would prefer over any aquanaut and also would prefer over any nautilus save the 5711a.

FA
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Old 3 April 2020, 11:04 AM   #2
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Great post. I was trying to figure out what bothered me about the collection. 2 major problems —- laziness (small movements, boring cases) and taste (fonts and bland dials).

And you’re right about the Nautilus and Aquanaut collections. They aren’t just hot because of steel and lifestyle. They are also better designed.

I say this as a big fan of the brand and a current owner of an Aquanaut and a PC.


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Old 3 April 2020, 11:35 AM   #3
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Great post. I was trying to figure out what bothered me about the collection. 2 major problems —- laziness (small movements, boring cases) and taste (fonts and bland dials).

And you’re right about the Nautilus and Aquanaut collections. They aren’t just hot because of steel and lifestyle. They are also better designed.

I say this as a big fan of the brand and a current owner of an Aquanaut and a PC.


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"small movements, boring cases"...perhaps strap watches are not passé, Patek just needs to raise their game.
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Old 3 April 2020, 12:36 PM   #4
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Patek just needs to raise their game.
If I may say, first suggestion would be to get back to reasonable service times. Use more bridges (than they do now) on new family of movements. All new movements get innovative materials where apppicable. Reduce production by 20%, increase quality accordingly. Warranty should be 5 years min, 8 years is now the new norm for some brands.

jmho

If Patek did all that I'd reconsider collecting them again.
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Old 3 April 2020, 12:44 PM   #5
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If I may say, first suggestion would be to get back to reasonable service times. Use more bridges (than they do now) on new family of movements. All new movements get innovative materials where apppicable. Reduce production by 20%, increase quality accordingly. Warranty should be 5 years min, 8 years is now the new norm for some brands.

jmho

If Patek did all that I'd reconsider collecting them again.
I would love to see a hobnail calatrava with a larger case around 39-40mm still ultra slender with a STATE OF THE ART Manual WIND movement, good finishing, that FILLS the entire case. Play around with lugs and curves.
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Old 3 April 2020, 01:16 PM   #6
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Great points. Out Piguet the Piguet.
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Old 4 April 2020, 06:46 AM   #7
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Good to see that I'm not the only thinking along these lines. At the price level Patek is playing, every little detail is a consideration and consequently a deal killer. The Nautilus madness of the late 2010s is (was?) symptomatic for Patek's product line-up. The 5711 and the 5712 were just the only well-designed pieces Patek had on offer.

Think of everything Patek has produced over the last ten years. Virtually every watch they did (except the 5711 and the 5712) was somehow flawed, or confused, or both. Typography is a huge issue - it makes so many releases look so utterly cheap. So are vintage elements - I mean, look at the 5320... it's just too much. It took them the better part of decade to come up with a decent-looking simple chronograph dial, which they then ruined by adding diamond hour markers and a flashy dial. And that was before they replaced it with the monstrosity of the 5172. There's only one watch from this confused period which has a decent chance to look good 30 years from now, and that's the 5370 - provided, that large case sizes will still be en vogue then.

I really hope Patek will get their act together in the near future. That said, I am not entirely positive. Currently, Vacheron makes a better impression by far.
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Old 4 April 2020, 09:16 AM   #8
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Ban him ^ the dial on my 5170 is the best I’ve ever seen I happen to love the diamonds but that I can understand a debate on. I’ve never heard someone say the blue gradient wasn’t superb
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Old 4 April 2020, 08:12 PM   #9
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Good to see that I'm not the only thinking along these lines. At the price level Patek is playing, every little detail is a consideration and consequently a deal killer. The Nautilus madness of the late 2010s is (was?) symptomatic for Patek's product line-up. The 5711 and the 5712 were just the only well-designed pieces Patek had on offer.

Think of everything Patek has produced over the last ten years. Virtually every watch they did (except the 5711 and the 5712) was somehow flawed, or confused, or both. Typography is a huge issue - it makes so many releases look so utterly cheap. So are vintage elements - I mean, look at the 5320... it's just too much. It took them the better part of decade to come up with a decent-looking simple chronograph dial, which they then ruined by adding diamond hour markers and a flashy dial. And that was before they replaced it with the monstrosity of the 5172. There's only one watch from this confused period which has a decent chance to look good 30 years from now, and that's the 5370 - provided, that large case sizes will still be en vogue then.

I really hope Patek will get their act together in the near future. That said, I am not entirely positive. Currently, Vacheron makes a better impression by far.
Despite the vitriol, you DO make some valid points.
A few counter points though:

- I’m probably alone in thinking the 5712 is an ergonomic/stylistic mess. I mean you can barely read the time on the bloody thing. Never liked it. The hype makes me like even less.

- They tried to ruin the 5170p but couldn’t. It’s gorgeous despite the annoying diamonds. (The original 5170j was ok I think also). I think the 5170p is a bargain today. Glorious watch!

Agree, 5370p is an instant classic.

I’ve never liked the Aquanaut, and I like some of the Nautilus at MSRP but not a penny more.
I got into Patek for their classic watches and sometimes I feel they’re a bit lost. They built their reputation on conservatism classism and absolute quality which made their watches timeless.

Thierry has tried to ‘modernise’ and appeal to younger buyers and that has confused their ethos and therefore products - which in turn has alienated collectors, confused newbies who thought Patek were the conservative gold standard, and brought no ‘younger buyers’ to any watch offering bar Nautilus/Aquanaut. It doesn’t help that he’s making far too many as well. The way the 5270 was released/managed/updated with dial after dial, chin, no-chin, and pieces being discounted from ADs was an unforgivable farce - the PCC is their icon and they blew it up and that shows what’s happened to the company.

They can pull it back. They need to revert to form and consider that their attempt for modern relevance actually set them back. Their biggest design hit, the 5370p is probably their most classic-looking modern reference.

Just my 2p.
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Old 4 April 2020, 09:09 PM   #10
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I share many critical points put forth in this thread. Patek should listen in their own interest. As a customer I am not bothered. There are lots of preowned beauties available at often affordable prices, say...

PC - 3940J or P or 5050P
PCC - 5970P
Chrono - 5170G black dial
Calatrava - 570, 3483A, or 5096J manual and 3998P or 5107P auto w date

Some look a little old fashioned and others are (too) small by today's standard but for me that remains part of the very idea of wearing a dress watch. I don't like 40+/-mm plain Jane dress pieces with lots of empty real estate on the dial.
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Old 4 April 2020, 10:30 PM   #11
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The OP makes some interesting points and I agree with most.
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Old 4 April 2020, 10:31 PM   #12
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Here's an idea.... matching the background of the day/month/etc rotating sub-dials background with the main dial background. Seems Patek greatly needs to start paying attention to dial aesthetics as a 'complete package' and not just throw on bits they already have within their parts bin. imho.
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Old 4 April 2020, 11:11 PM   #13
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Valid points.. hopefully it would reach Patek HQ
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Old 5 April 2020, 02:29 AM   #14
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Here's an idea.... matching the background of the day/month/etc rotating sub-dials background with the main dial background. Seems Patek greatly needs to start paying attention to dial aesthetics as a 'complete package' and not just throw on bits they already have within their parts bin. imho.
Do you honestly think the reason the date window doesn’t match the dial is because they only want to use existing bits from within their parts bin?
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Old 5 April 2020, 02:35 AM   #15
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Despite the vitriol, you DO make some valid points.
A few counter points though:

- I’m probably alone in thinking the 5712 is an ergonomic/stylistic mess. I mean you can barely read the time on the bloody thing. Never liked it. The hype makes me like even less.

- They tried to ruin the 5170p but couldn’t. It’s gorgeous despite the annoying diamonds. (The original 5170j was ok I think also). I think the 5170p is a bargain today. Glorious watch!

Agree, 5370p is an instant classic.

I’ve never liked the Aquanaut, and I like some of the Nautilus at MSRP but not a penny more.
I got into Patek for their classic watches and sometimes I feel they’re a bit lost. They built their reputation on conservatism classism and absolute quality which made their watches timeless.

Thierry has tried to ‘modernise’ and appeal to younger buyers and that has confused their ethos and therefore products - which in turn has alienated collectors, confused newbies who thought Patek were the conservative gold standard, and brought no ‘younger buyers’ to any watch offering bar Nautilus/Aquanaut. It doesn’t help that he’s making far too many as well. The way the 5270 was released/managed/updated with dial after dial, chin, no-chin, and pieces being discounted from ADs was an unforgivable farce - the PCC is their icon and they blew it up and that shows what’s happened to the company.

They can pull it back. They need to revert to form and consider that their attempt for modern relevance actually set them back. Their biggest design hit, the 5370p is probably their most classic-looking modern reference.

Just my 2p.
If I buy a Patek (or any watch, for that matter), I want it to look good in 30 years' time and age gracefully. And that requires a convincing package. In the past, they've been very good at that, with only Rolex matching/surpassing them in their consistency.

Whether it's confusion or the urge to be modern and relevant to young people, Patek have failed to provide such packages for quite some time. Sure, some of their watches have always been controversial (Gilbert Albert, anyone?) - but at least you could not really argue about simple basics, such as getting the fonts right.

Maybe sometime they will get back to their form, but I don't see that happening in the next five-ish years.
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Old 5 April 2020, 04:43 AM   #16
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Despite the vitriol, you DO make some valid points.
A few counter points though:

- I’m probably alone in thinking the 5712 is an ergonomic/stylistic mess. I mean you can barely read the time on the bloody thing. Never liked it. The hype makes me like even less.

- They tried to ruin the 5170p but couldn’t. It’s gorgeous despite the annoying diamonds. (The original 5170j was ok I think also). I think the 5170p is a bargain today. Glorious watch!

Agree, 5370p is an instant classic.

I’ve never liked the Aquanaut, and I like some of the Nautilus at MSRP but not a penny more.
I got into Patek for their classic watches and sometimes I feel they’re a bit lost. They built their reputation on conservatism classism and absolute quality which made their watches timeless.

Thierry has tried to ‘modernise’ and appeal to younger buyers and that has confused their ethos and therefore products - which in turn has alienated collectors, confused newbies who thought Patek were the conservative gold standard, and brought no ‘younger buyers’ to any watch offering bar Nautilus/Aquanaut. It doesn’t help that he’s making far too many as well. The way the 5270 was released/managed/updated with dial after dial, chin, no-chin, and pieces being discounted from ADs was an unforgivable farce - the PCC is their icon and they blew it up and that shows what’s happened to the company.

They can pull it back. They need to revert to form and consider that their attempt for modern relevance actually set them back. Their biggest design hit, the 5370p is probably their most classic-looking modern reference.

Just my 2p.
correct. the 5370P is an icon, 5170P is really beautiful and may become an icon.
the other dress watches of PP...meh...
the aquanaut and the nautilus ranges have an appeal but are produced in too large quantities. the more i think about the more i prefer rolex sports watches over the PP ones.
i'd like to give audemars a try but they have not volunteered to sell to me. i have hope in the US, where the ninja is trying to be helpful:::))))
i do also like their new chrono and the steel VC cornes de vaches.
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Old 5 April 2020, 04:53 AM   #17
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Do you honestly think the reason the date window doesn’t match the dial is because they only want to use existing bits from within their parts bin?
Sounded good when it came out ....
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Old 5 April 2020, 07:42 AM   #18
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I share many critical points put forth in this thread. Patek should listen in their own interest. As a customer I am not bothered. There are lots of preowned beauties available at often affordable prices, say...

PC - 3940J or P or 5050P
PCC - 5970P
Chrono - 5170G black dial
Calatrava - 570, 3483A, or 5096J manual and 3998P or 5107P auto w date

Some look a little old fashioned and others are (too) small by today's standard but for me that remains part of the very idea of wearing a dress watch. I don't like 40+/-mm plain Jane dress pieces with lots of empty real estate on the dial.
+1000

Also for those who point to the 5370p - yes at the top of the food chain they are certainly capable - which makes the core issues so maddening.
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Old 5 April 2020, 07:46 AM   #19
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Do you honestly think the reason the date window doesn’t match the dial is because they only want to use existing bits from within their parts bin?
It’s some type of cost containment I do believe - not cool at all. If Patek doesn’t get their stuff together I’m really draw to the very coherent rose Gold black disk Lange saxonia outsized date. 20k at market price and everything I should expect in a simple modern dress watch - but if Patek would deliver I would buy theirs !
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Old 5 April 2020, 07:50 AM   #20
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Do you honestly think the reason the date window doesn’t match the dial is because they only want to use existing bits from within their parts bin?
If I'm right, Patek is just being lazy. If you're right, Patek needs a better visual stylist for their timepieces. Take your pick.
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Old 5 April 2020, 08:50 AM   #21
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Just like in other ahem activities; any hole including watch cases needs to be filled up to the maximum. Why do we want "white space"? Any finely developed movement and case where you're paying $20k+ should have the movement fill the case. Anything else is lazy and for economical reasons.
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Old 5 April 2020, 02:15 PM   #22
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As I mentioned, it’s both laziness and taste. If Lange can build all sorts of movements at different sizes, why not Patek?


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Old 6 April 2020, 02:03 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2 View Post
Despite the vitriol, you DO make some valid points.
A few counter points though:

- I’m probably alone in thinking the 5712 is an ergonomic/stylistic mess. I mean you can barely read the time on the bloody thing. Never liked it. The hype makes me like even less.

- They tried to ruin the 5170p but couldn’t. It’s gorgeous despite the annoying diamonds. (The original 5170j was ok I think also). I think the 5170p is a bargain today. Glorious watch!

Agree, 5370p is an instant classic.

I’ve never liked the Aquanaut, and I like some of the Nautilus at MSRP but not a penny more.
I got into Patek for their classic watches and sometimes I feel they’re a bit lost. They built their reputation on conservatism classism and absolute quality which made their watches timeless.

Thierry has tried to ‘modernise’ and appeal to younger buyers and that has confused their ethos and therefore products - which in turn has alienated collectors, confused newbies who thought Patek were the conservative gold standard, and brought no ‘younger buyers’ to any watch offering bar Nautilus/Aquanaut. It doesn’t help that he’s making far too many as well. The way the 5270 was released/managed/updated with dial after dial, chin, no-chin, and pieces being discounted from ADs was an unforgivable farce - the PCC is their icon and they blew it up and that shows what’s happened to the company.

They can pull it back. They need to revert to form and consider that their attempt for modern relevance actually set them back. Their biggest design hit, the 5370p is probably their most classic-looking modern reference.

Just my 2p.
I almost feel like I wrote this lol, with the exception of I don't like 5370P like you do. Agreed on Aquanaut and Nautilus. And yes 5170P is gorgeous, one of the few modern Pateks I like in terms of aesthetics.
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