What i wish never happens....happened

[ryan.uk]

Originally Posted by kauffee

Well comparing photoshopped press images to real photos is not always useful.

The non-Rolex movement kind of gives it away in this case. Sad for the OP.

People on this site love to scream 'fake' with with any blurry cell phone photo. There's a thread on the general forum right now where a TT Sub that was called out as fake from some cell phone pics was verified authentic by a Rolex boutique.

Sometimes it's clear but with good fakes and bad photos it's oftentimes not.

Have to concur... comparing the OPs pics versus the AD-bought 116660 on my wrist, it's very convincing indeed. I can even see why the original seller themselves could be duped. Sad situation all round; hope the OP is duly made-good, and that the seller is also able to solve the issue their side too.

With a replica, there can be no way you're getting the 904L steel, probably not sapphire crystal, maybe not white gold hands/indices, likely not platinum coated bezel graduations - but everything is basically passable here on a visual inspection, it's probably even a 'fairly decent' movement (anyone know what movement this is?).

I could make no assertion that I would be 100% able to tell the difference. In fact even with mine being NOS AD-bought I still worried that 'what if' it got switched in some scam whilst they were adjusting the links perhaps? It wasn't until I was finally able to see the laser-etched coronet in the crystal (which is fairly tricky!) that I felt assured, but even then - I'm never going to be able to see the movement unless I decide to compromise the depth rating.

No, obviously I'm not diving to 3,900M; but there's something to be said knowing this very piece on my wrist has and can endure that incredible amount of pressure (as Daz says).

Another good test is a water-drop beading on the crystal, but I suspect the better replicas even have genuine sapphire.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Valenciawatchrepair

Seems that way I guess. In a controlled environment(a service center or watchmaker) I don't see why opening the back would warrant a price reduction or a scare. Some Joe Blow off the street, that's another story. Merely opening the watch does not ruin the sealing capabilities. That's why I mentioned the crown.

Most sellers are some Joe Blow, not a watchmaker in a clean environment.

And, you must be some kind of crazy if you think removing the case back is the same as unscrewing the crown. I would question your skill set if you honestly believe that is true.

Once the case back is off the depth rating is gone until it's pressure tested to manufacturer specifications. For a DSSD that means going to a service center. If you've had the case back off, I'm discounting the price for what it costs me to have the service center pressure test it. If it doesn't test to specs, you're getting the watch back and I'm getting a refund.

[Mattnodtvedt]

My last trade was my 114300 for a 214270 (love it BTW). I did as much verification with the seller as I could, especially since no box or papers were included. I still bought a caseback opener tool on Amazon and put my iPhone in my shirt pocket to record the receipt of the package and immediate recording of the serial # and caseback opening all in about a 3 minute video. I then compared what I was seeing to the 'best fakes' on the rep forums (you wanna be serious about buying Rolexes online - you need to be serious and knowledgeable about the fakes). Right now, you have to pay well over $500 to get a rep with a remotely passable movement (i.e. - most reps still don't pay attention to the movement). Right now, it still looks like the blue hairspring is the last big giveaway that even the most detailed reps haven't gotten around to.

Still, the reps are scary good and the only way to be reasonably sure about your purchase is by opening the caseback. Unless you're an absolute ogre, I don't see how there is a significant chance of damaging the movement by taking a quick peek inside.

[GLADIATOR]

Few people by a Porsche to drive at 200 miles per hour or accelerate to 60 in 4 seconds, but they would be disappointed if it only worked to 100 mph.

Opening a watch like this, breaks the seals and in my opinion is incorrect, unless you or it is resealed and tested

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Few people by a Porsche to drive at 200 miles per hour or accelerate to 60 in 4 seconds, but they would be disappointed if it only worked to 100 mph.

Opening a watch like this, breaks the seals and in my opinion is incorrect, unless you or it is resealed and tested

There is no seal.

[Valenciawatchrepair]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Most sellers are some Joe Blow, not a watchmaker in a clean environment.

And, you must be some kind of crazy if you think removing the case back is the same as unscrewing the crown. I would question your skill set if you honestly believe that is true.

Once the case back is off the depth rating is gone until it's pressure tested to manufacturer specifications. For a DSSD that means going to a service center. If you've had the case back off, I'm discounting the price for what it costs me to have the service center pressure test it. If it doesn't test to specs, you're getting the watch back and I'm getting a refund.

I'm assuming a pressure test redone. But, again, what percentage of backs removed and then screwed back on(again in an environment of a shop) will fail that pressure test. This is why if I list something I do photos of the inside as well. It gives a little more comfort to the buyer. Even when I can spot a fake with the photos, I still yearn for a movement shot.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Valenciawatchrepair

I'm assuming a pressure test redone. But, again, what percentage of backs removed and then screwed back on(again in an environment of a shop) will fail that pressure test. This is why if I list something I do photos of the inside as well. It gives a little more comfort to the buyer. Even when I can spot a fake with the photos, I still yearn for a movement shot.

If the seller removes the case back and doesn't pressure test he should state that in the sale. The buyer gets to make the decision whether it matters that it's pressure tested, and that requires a statement from the seller.

Some buyers won't care, others will be bothered. In any case, the onus is on the seller to be upfront with the condition of the watch, and the absence of a current pressure test is a condition that should be listed. Especially on a watch with special testing equipment like a DSSD.

[Valenciawatchrepair]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

If the seller removes the case back and doesn't pressure test he should state that in the sale. The buyer gets to make the decision whether it matters that it's pressure tested, and that requires a statement from the seller.

Some buyers won't care, others will be bothered. In any case, the onus is on the seller to be upfront with the condition of the watch, and the absence of a current pressure test is a condition that should be listed. Especially on a watch with special testing equipment like a DSSD.

Agreed. Something like the DSSD is quite specific. Only thing is, if someone did open it and didn't have it retested how would the average person know? That's the scary part. Either trust the seller or find out something is wrong when you go in the water.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Valenciawatchrepair

Agreed. Something like the DSSD is quite specific. Only thing is, if someone did open it and didn't have it retested how would the average person know? That's the scary part. Either trust the seller or find out something is wrong when you go in the water.

If the seller has a picture of the movement in his ad, he should also have a copy of the pressure test to go with it. If he doesn't, the ad should state that the watch needs a test. That goes for any Rolex, not just the DSSD.

[Valenciawatchrepair]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

If the seller has a picture of the movement in his ad, he should also have a copy of the pressure test to go with it. If he doesn't, the ad should state that the watch needs a test. That goes for any Rolex, not just the DSSD.

Agree as well. Only thing is, sellers "should" do a lot of things.

[kippyhunt]

OP has pulled a Houdini act and vanished?

NO Seller mentioned?

I don't get the entire purpose of this Post and NO Photos either?

Very strange ...

[goldfixer21]

Originally Posted by Valenciawatchrepair

I'm assuming a pressure test redone. But, again, what percentage of backs removed and then screwed back on(again in an environment of a shop) will fail that pressure test. This is why if I list something I do photos of the inside as well. It gives a little more comfort to the buyer. Even when I can spot a fake with the photos, I still yearn for a movement shot.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in, but IMO removing a case back and putting it back on correctly with an undamaged gasket is not likely to cause any pressure problems. The crown and crystal are more likely to be areas of water intrusion. Proof of this is the fact that some pressure tests are done with the movement removed. You obviously have to remove the case back to put it back in.

[Dazlewis]

Originally Posted by MonBK

There is no seal.

Of course there is a seal, otherwise it would not be waterproof. That is almost what seal means by definition! The way the case and gaskets mate together sweats what makes the seal. When the case back is removed this seal is broken. When the case back is put back ok on this seal is remade.

I agree there is no reason to think opening a case and then closing it with a clean and undamaged gasket and using the correct torque will mean it is no longer waterproof to the original pressure rating. However, if the gasket is damaged / the incorrect torque is used / some dust or hair settles on the gasket / debris gets in the screw thread, then the reseal is not necessarily guaranteed.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Dazlewis

Of course there is a seal, otherwise it would not be waterproof. That is almost what seal means by definition! The way the case and gaskets mate together sweats what makes the seal. When the case back is removed this seal is broken. When the case back is put back ok on this seal is remade.

I agree there is no reason to think opening a case and then closing it with a clean and undamaged gasket and using the correct torque will mean it is no longer waterproof to the original pressure rating. However, if the gasket is damaged / the incorrect torque is used / some dust or hair settles on the gasket / debris gets in the screw thread, then the reseal is not necessarily guaranteed.

Ok, so it almost has a seal.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Dazlewis

Of course there is a seal, otherwise it would not be waterproof. That is almost what seal means by definition! The way the case and gaskets mate together sweats what makes the seal. When the case back is removed this seal is broken. When the case back is put back ok on this seal is remade.

I agree there is no reason to think opening a case and then closing it with a clean and undamaged gasket and using the correct torque will mean it is no longer waterproof to the original pressure rating. However, if the gasket is damaged / the incorrect torque is used / some dust or hair settles on the gasket / debris gets in the screw thread, then the reseal is not necessarily guaranteed.

While diving at about 35 meters, a friends Olympia camera housing flooded. A hair was stuck to the o-ring gasket and fouled the seal just enough to cause a leak. Those housings don't have leak detectors, so he didn't notice until the camera started reacting to contact with sea water.

A careless hand can contaminate a gasket pretty easily. That's why service centers pressure test, to verify that the watch was assembled correctly.

[77T]

Originally Posted by kippyhunt

OP has pulled a Houdini act and vanished?



NO Seller mentioned?



I don't get the entire purpose of this Post and NO Photos either?



Very strange ...

Candidly, the additional leverage of this thread may have had an effect on the unnamed seller. The mere association with a sale of a replica could cost much more than the refund the OP wanted. So that is one purpose. The other purpose is possibly educational - I have always validated every trade/buy with my certified watchmaker - even from TRF sellers. So this thread helps new members and experienced ones as well.

There were photos posted - just go back to post #40.

I, too, would like an update when all is resolved - at this time it seems the ball was in the OP's court to return the Watch, and then get a refund...

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

While diving at about 35 meters, a friends Olympia camera housing flooded. A hair was stuck to the o-ring gasket and fouled the seal just enough to cause a leak. Those housings don't have leak detectors, so he didn't notice until the camera started reacting to contact with sea water.

A careless hand can contaminate a gasket pretty easily. That's why service centers pressure test, to verify that the watch was assembled correctly.

Well said and excellent point.

[dnpina]

Wow. I've found this entire thread to be very informative.

[Tal1]

Originally Posted by dnpina

Wow. I've found this entire thread to be very informative.

Indeed.
Buy what is the end ?

[cajunron]

Originally Posted by Tal1

Indeed.
Buy what is the end ?

Mon called it in the very beginning.

Originally Posted by MonBK

I smell a fish!

[116710er]

For the watch repair people here and other's who might be as knowledgeable...when it comes to recently produced Rolexes (six digits, ones still under warranty, etc.), do you think using a timegrapher is a good way to determine if the movement is real?

So whether you do it at the point of sale (FTF) or when you receive it, so long as the watch falls within Rolex's "Superlative Chronometer" spec (-2/+2) and has a very minimal (0.0 to 0.1/0.2 maybe) beat error and good amplitude (270+), would you consider that GTG w/o having to open it?

[Andad]

Originally Posted by 116710er

For the watch repair people here and other's who might be as knowledgeable...when it comes to recently produced Rolexes (six digits, ones still under warranty, etc.), do you think using a timegrapher is a good way to determine if the movement is real?

So whether you do it at the point of sale (FTF) or when you receive it, so long as the watch falls within Rolex's "Superlative Chronometer" spec (-2/+2) and has a very minimal (0.0 to 0.1/0.2 maybe) beat error and good amplitude (270+), would you consider that GTG w/o having to open it?

No.

[corn18]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

While diving at about 35 meters, a friends Olympia camera housing flooded. A hair was stuck to the o-ring gasket and fouled the seal just enough to cause a leak. Those housings don't have leak detectors, so he didn't notice until the camera started reacting to contact with sea water.

A careless hand can contaminate a gasket pretty easily. That's why service centers pressure test, to verify that the watch was assembled correctly.

My company builds a product (electro optical) that must survive 66ft for 2 hours without leaking. Seems like a fairly easy standard to meet, right? Not. Any contamination on the gasket will provide a leak path. Any deformities in the mating surfaces or the seal will result in a failed leak test. We pressure test the product before it leaves the factory and we get about a 5% failure rate even when building them in a clean room with trained professionals. And if we break the seal on a good product to rework it, we get the same failure rate after retesting.

Now translate that to 12,600 ft.

[TempoKing]

I keep on file many fake Rolex items for comparison when needed

[R@lex]

Originally Posted by juniorlawrence

I don't understand people attacking the OP makes no sense. Sorry to hear that OP

People were carving out his cross already!!! This forum is funny sometimes...

[Ballaratboy]

So sorry to hear this!

[116710er]

Originally Posted by directioneng

No.

Care to explain why? Do you really think that replica/fake makes are able to make movements that can qualify for Rolex's "Superlative Chronometer" rating?

[drifter01]

I have several watches with Chinese, Japanese and Swiss movements that keep Rolex timing quality and several that show a straight Timeographer reading in all poitions. In answer to 116710er's question...YES.

[116710er]

Originally Posted by drifter01

I have several watches with Chinese, Japanese and Swiss movements that keep Rolex timing quality and several that show a straight Timeographer reading in all poitions. In answer to 116710er's question...YES.

Wow, that's a bit frightening...in more than one way.