1967 Date with 'OT Swiss TO' marking

[seabreeze60]

The local Rolex dealers do not recognize the 'OT Swiss TO' marking. Does anyone have the history? I have attached a photo. Thanks. Dan

[madonofrio]

The Rolex dealer doesn't recognize a sigma dial?

Read up here- https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/what-is-a-sigma-dial

[seabreeze60]

Great info! Does a sigma dial make a Rolex a collectible? The dealer is a 'former dealer' and I suspected he was angling to purchase at a discount. Thanks again.

[GerardoG]

Romans were introduced by Rolex in late 80's/early 90's; so if this is a '67 Date; the dial was replaced later.

[HogwldFLTR]

The article says that pre-1970 sigma dials aren't original dials if I read it correctly. Aside from the Roman numerals (which I'm not certain of), the sigma notation on the dial of a '67 would also indicate a replaced dial.

Also I don't believe the sigma dialed watches to be of extra value. Dates are generally of lesser value due to their 34mm size as well.

[madonofrio]

A watch with a sigma wojld typically be worth more, all other things constant, as compared to the same watch without the sigma... but (1) this isn't a valuable model, so "worth more" is relative and (2) the replacement dial further diminishes the value.

OP- what's the story with this watch? That was your first post when I replied.

[seabreeze60]

Good information. Thank you! Looks like someone took a 67 Date and and added a new face, sapphire crystal and a new bezel (adding now). I like the 34MM size and weight. I also own a Submariner but weighs too much! The 34MM Date feels better. Also, strange but having a custom Rolex is cool in its own way. However, I'll see if someone wants to purchase at my cost, $5K. No chance, but that is the watch business.

[tomchicago]

Just goes to show you can't beat TRFers. AD's legs quake in their presence!

[seabreeze60]

Back home and check the serial number of the watch. It was a 1987 model, not 1967. Also I added a new bezel. The watch is looks much better.

Thanks for all your feedback. Good group.
[IMG]IMG_0302.JPG[/IMG]

[seabreeze60]

This sigma dial stands for: O = gold lettering, T = Tritium

However, it is very uncommon. The pattern of the Roman Numbers on the face without the dual line black etching next to the letters is unique. All Rolex watches I've seen on the internet have the dual line at the outer edge of the face of the watch next to the letters. This face must be a one-off or a special order. Thoughts?

I have had the Rolex checked out at the local deal and all is OK with internal markings and serial numbers.

[seabreeze60]

Every gold roman numeral Date or Datejust has the black etching on the outside of the face. See below in the second picture. My Date doesn't have it nor have I been able to find another like it. I think they must have done a limited edition back in 1996 then moved to the etching that they still use today. Any thoughts?

Also, it appears that a Sigma Dial is rare. Is it a collector's item?

Thanks. Dan

[seabreeze60]

In case you are wondering, I have had the Date double checked for authenticity with a second dealer. The model is a 15053 and was produced in 1987. The parts are all genuine except the crystal that was changed from plastic to sapphire.

[seabreeze60]

Check with Bob's Watches, a large internet Rolex non-AD dealer in CA. I had them quote a price for the above watch. The price came in below what I was asking, but they did admit they put in an extra $500 for the Sigma Dial. That was a 25% premium over the base price of $2,000. I paid way more for this watch, but I was fishing for fun. Also, I think because it is a Sigma Dial they may have used a different face plate than standard. Thanks all!

[seabreeze60]

Please look at the O and let me know what you think! I know the Rolex serial number is good, but I think the dealer may have changed out the dial.

[seabreeze60]

Here is from one of the member posts: Dials which have fonts "O T SWISS T O" towards the bottom area, denotes that the markers are made of white or yellow gold.

The word sigma dial is used because the letter O's in the O T SWISS T O appear to look like the the 18th letter in the Greek alphabet σ or the Mathematic symbol for sigma.

My Sigma has a perfect O.

Here's a photo with the Sigma O that looks right.

[seabreeze60]

Wikipedia- Sigma (upper-case Σ, lower-case σ, lower-case in word-final position ς; Greek: σίγμα) is the eighteenth letter of the Greek alphabet. In the system of Greek numerals, it has a value of 200. When used at the end of a word (when the word is not all caps), the final form (ς) is used, e.g. Ὀδυσσεύς (Odysseus); note the two sigmas in the center of the name, and the word-final sigma at the end.

Rolex uses the lower case form.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by seabreeze60

Please look at the O and let me know what you think! I know the Rolex serial number is good, but I think the dealer may have changed out the dial.

Sigma dials were used from ~'71 to '75. If yours is on a late 80's watch, then yes, it was changed at some point in time.

[seabreeze60]

[Tools;7741418]Sigma dials were used from ~'71 to '75. If yours is on a late 80's watch, then yes, it was changed at some point in time. [/QUOTE]

Thank you! That was what I suspected. What do you think the chances are that the dial is a genuine Rolex replacement?

[ianmcg]

Just to clarify the rounded symbol on the early 70s watches (Rolex and others) is neither an O nor a greek sigma. To a casual look it's a bit like a greek Sigma (which is round with a tail) so it has become convenient to call it that but in fact it's a trademark symbol created by the Association Pour La Promotion Industrielle de L'Or to encourage manufacturers to identify items made from gold as a kind of quality mark. As a trademark therefore it has a very specific form that was registered specifically to create a unique identity. It's 3 quarters of a circle and one quarter of a square in the top right.

Here's a link to a site with their original advertising when the mark was launched which shows the shape clearly:

http://www.moeb.ch/iwcscans/articles...B-F-Aprior.jpg

This is the only shape I would accept.

As for the dial in question I think the chances the dial is a genuine Rolex replacement are as close to zero as makes no difference.


Ian

[seabreeze60]

Thank you Ian for the feedback.

As for the dial, I came to the same conclusion.

Take care. Dan

[seabreeze60]

Below you will see a Rolex Date for sale at a large internet seller Bob's. If you look on their web site the watch is a 1961 Date with the marking OT Swiss TO. Note not the Sigma O. Just the regular O. There is more to this story. My watch and this watch can't have the same marking!!!!

[seabreeze60]

This Date according to Bob's Watch's is a 1961 in 100% original condition. Note the OT Swiss TO, but using the normal 'O' not the Sigma 'O'. Also, according to many sources the Rolex used Sigma dials from 1971 to 1975, not before. However, if Bob's Watch is correct, that blows a hold in the logic. Here's the link: https://www.bobswatches.com/gold-rolex-date-1503.html. Also, I looked a over 100 photos of Rolex watches back from 1960 to 1962 that showed T Swiss T.

[roh123]

No one would expect a sigma in -61 nor the 80's.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by seabreeze60

This Date according to Bob's Watch's is a 1961 in 100% original condition. Note the OT Swiss TO, but using the normal 'O' not the Sigma 'O'. Also, according to many sources the Rolex used Sigma dials from 1971 to 1975, not before. However, if Bob's Watch is correct, that blows a hold in the logic. Here's the link: https://www.bobswatches.com/gold-rolex-date-1503.html. Also, I looked a over 100 photos of Rolex watches back from 1960 to 1962 that showed T Swiss T.

Neither that dial nor those hands are from 1961. Why does the description say this ref was first released in 1979?

[seabreeze60]

I took the Sigma back to the dealer and let him know that it was aftermarket. I also let him know that I had $5,000 wrapped up in the watch. He let me trade up to a 2016 Datejust 16623 gold/stainless for an extra $4,000. After I bought it I discovered the dial and hour/minute hand were not correct based on the face of the watch. I checked the Rolex catalog online. I called and told him. Someone had changed the dial. He conceded and asked that I come back to his store today. When I arrived, he presented me with a new 36mm Datejust 16623, $10,900 list watch. Brand new with all tags and stickers. He said here - fair is fair. No extra cash. The difference was on him. How about that for a deal!!

[CaveDweller]

Sounds fair - but he obviously doesn't know his Rolex's ......

[seabreeze60]

Originally Posted by CaveDweller

Sounds fair - but he obviously doesn't know his Rolex's ......

Correct. The owner's daughter (front office manager) showed me a tray of Rolex dials that customers had them take off and change to aftermarket ones. She said that they get people coming in weekly looking at their aftermarket Rolex (fake) dials to change to the color or design they want. She showed me their catalogs of aftermarket dials. The dealer keeps the original Rolex dials for people that ask for them. They don't think twice about changing the dial on a Rolex. I walked them thru what that means to the value of the watch, Rolex policy, etc. They knew how Rolex policy works, but they are a TAG dealer and make a lot of money on resales of Rolex and dial changes.

I learned a lot in the process and am happy to finally own two 'all original' Rolex watches.

[seabreeze60]

Originally Posted by seabreeze60

I took the Sigma back to the dealer and let him know that it was aftermarket. I also let him know that I had $5,000 wrapped up in the watch. He let me trade up to a 2016 Datejust 16623 gold/stainless for an extra $4,000. After I bought it I discovered the dial and hour/minute hand were not correct based on the face of the watch. I checked the Rolex catalog online. I called and told him. Someone had changed the dial. He conceded and asked that I come back to his store today. When I arrived, he presented me with a new 36mm Datejust 16623, $10,900 list watch. Brand new with all tags and stickers. He said here - fair is fair. No extra cash. The difference was on him. How about that for a deal!!

Here's the watch!

[Too Old]

A 16623 is a Yachtmaster. I think you mean a 16233
However if it is a 16233 I don't think it's a 2016
They changed the model numbers to six figures in the early 2000's
A 2016 should be a 116233, others may bear this out.

[seabreeze60]

Originally Posted by Too Old

A 16623 is a Yachtmaster. I think you mean a 16233
However if it is a 16233 I don't think it's a 2016
They changed the model numbers to six figures in the early 2000's
A 2016 should be a 116233, others may bear this out.

Correct. I meant 116233! Thanks for catching the error. The serial number starts with 15U42XXX. I can't find on the internet what year that is. It comes up 'random'. So, in reality, I don't know if the watch was made in 2016 or 2017.