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Old 10 August 2022, 11:17 AM   #61
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i didn’t see the decision, and maybe the liv players lose in court. But again i think that hurts the pga in the long term. Independent contractors don’t want to be treated the way the pga is treating them now. More will leave to liv.

It’s really stupid, there’s plenty of room, tourneys, money, etc. For both tours/leagues to thrive and share players.
I won’t be alive when it all gets figured out.
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Old 10 August 2022, 11:20 AM   #62
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I happen to agree with you but her honors decision today has to have taken the wind out of Greg and his 48.
Um, no. It was a motion for a TRO -- which means they have to show likelihood of them suffering irreparable harm if it is not granted, which since they are paid very well was not exactly going to be easy to show. PGA will have a fairly tough antitrust case to make once it goes to an actual trial.

As for the Saudi money bad, PGA good line of thought -- why just Saudi? China money good? No moral issues there for the PGA?

Pga has no problem with taking CCP money. PGA is also okay with taking money from companies that make it in Saudi. Saudi Aramco backing womens golf wasn't previously an issue. And how about all those American companies taking investments from Saudi sovereign wealth funds? I assume they must all be boycotted?

I don't care one way or the other, but the selective morality is a little much to take. The PGA doesn't have the moral high ground here, they are a monopoly and they are trying to protect that monopoly. They would have done the same thing if the new tour was funded by a country that was morally pristine. Monopolies going to monopoly.
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Old 10 August 2022, 11:24 AM   #63
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Um, no. It was a motion for a TRO -- which means they have to show likelihood of them suffering irreparable harm if it is not granted, which since they are paid very well was not exactly going to be easy to show. PGA will have a fairly tough antitrust case to make once it goes to an actual trial.

As for the Saudi money bad, PGA good line of thought -- why just Saudi? China money good? No moral issues there for the PGA?

Pga has no problem with taking CCP money. PGA is also okay with taking money from companies that make it in Saudi. Saudi Aramco backing womens golf wasn't previously an issue. And how about all those American companies taking investments from Saudi sovereign wealth funds? I assume they must all be boycotted?

I don't care one way or the other, but the selective morality is a little much to take. The PGA doesn't have the moral high ground here, they are a monopoly and they are trying to protect that monopoly. They would have done the same thing if the new tour was funded by a country that was morally pristine. Monopolies going to monopoly.
I just never wanted to bring up the “Rogue Countries “ thing here. But I share your sentiments. Still think there’s a nail in the coffin though.
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Old 10 August 2022, 11:31 AM   #64
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I just never wanted to bring up the “Rogue Countries “ thing here. But I share your sentiments. Still think there’s a nail in the coffin though.
This is far from decided. The LIV isn't the XFL, they have the resources to play the long game.
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Old 10 August 2022, 12:48 PM   #65
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Well well well…

"If this is an arms race and if the only weapons here are dollar bills, the PGA Tour can't compete," he said. "The PGA Tour, an American institution, can't compete with a foreign monarchy that is spending billions of dollars in an attempt to buy the game of golf.
"We welcome good, healthy competition. The LIV Saudi Golf League is not that. It's an irrational threat; one not concerned with the return on investment or true growth of the game."





https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/09/golf/...ntl/index.html


*golf clap for PGA*


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Old 10 August 2022, 01:43 PM   #66
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From the moral angle, I’m not sure about putting the onus on individual athletes to take a stand against a government. Good and righteous when it happens, but it seems like something our governments should do, not Cameron Smith et al.
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Old 10 August 2022, 02:06 PM   #67
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I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say he does a 180 and doesn’t sign. It’s my guess that if he had signed the Tour would know about it and he would not be playing this week and the Prez Cup. He may have verbally committed but that’s not the same as Pen n paper. Just my take.

I think he’s taking the reported 100M and running away. That’s more than double what Kevin na has made, and double what Charles Howell has made and those guys are human ATM machines on tour. He has a major, he will always be able to play the open, IMO, hes 100% gone. If he hadn’t won a major i think it could be a different story.

I also don’t think cam is going to be one of the guys to go back and try to play the pga tour. Now he can play 14 times a year, fish, and swim in his money.


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Old 11 August 2022, 12:38 AM   #68
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I think he’s taking the reported 100M and running away. That’s more than double what Kevin na has made, and double what Charles Howell has made and those guys are human ATM machines on tour. He has a major, he will always be able to play the open, IMO, hes 100% gone. If he hadn’t won a major i think it could be a different story.

I also don’t think cam is going to be one of the guys to go back and try to play the pga tour. Now he can play 14 times a year, fish, and swim in his money.


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Interesting take. I do know that Cam and DJ also, love being out on their Boats whether it be Fishing offshore Jax and Jupiter or joyriding with family and friends.
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Old 11 August 2022, 01:17 AM   #69
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Um, no. It was a motion for a TRO -- which means they have to show likelihood of them suffering irreparable harm if it is not granted, which since they are paid very well was not exactly going to be easy to show. PGA will have a fairly tough antitrust case to make once it goes to an actual trial.

As for the Saudi money bad, PGA good line of thought -- why just Saudi? China money good? No moral issues there for the PGA?

Pga has no problem with taking CCP money. PGA is also okay with taking money from companies that make it in Saudi. Saudi Aramco backing womens golf wasn't previously an issue. And how about all those American companies taking investments from Saudi sovereign wealth funds? I assume they must all be boycotted?

I don't care one way or the other, but the selective morality is a little much to take. The PGA doesn't have the moral high ground here, they are a monopoly and they are trying to protect that monopoly. They would have done the same thing if the new tour was funded by a country that was morally pristine. Monopolies going to monopoly.
I completely agree with this.

Here is a theory of LIV's intentions a friend ran by me: LIV will buy the Asian Tour and changes to 72 holes to gain world ranking points. DP Tour loses all quality players and LIV buys DP with 50% of the top Americans all making more money. PGA and LIV merge to create a World Golf Tour with 2 divisions like all other major US sports and the FEDEX Cup becomes a division vs division playoff/championship.

I told him he was some good stuff but I guess you can't rule anything out with the all money behind LIV.
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Old 11 August 2022, 04:14 AM   #70
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So the PGA Tour has used its monopolistic powers for years in squashing others trying to get into golf/hold tournaments/etc but decide now to cry when someone much bigger comes and threatens their kingdom... Sigh.. Rich people fighting rich people...


Tiger turning down the offer was nothing but a PR move. A good one though for sure. He will make far more than the 750 over time in endorsement money.

I really don't care either way what happens. Just seems a bit hypocritical on the PGA's part.
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Old 11 August 2022, 05:56 AM   #71
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So the PGA Tour has used its monopolistic powers for years in squashing others trying to get into golf/hold tournaments/etc but decide now to cry when someone much bigger comes and threatens their kingdom... Sigh.. Rich people fighting rich people...


Tiger turning down the offer was nothing but a PR move. A good one though for sure. He will make far more than the 750 over time in endorsement money.

I really don't care either way what happens. Just seems a bit hypocritical on the PGA's part.

I dont see it as being hypocritical, as those that left for LIV knew full well that they were going to banned from the PGA, Ryder and Pres Cups.. Like you, dont care either way, but you have to know the PGA wasnt going to take this on their back. They took the big payout and are SET FOR LIFE! Choices.
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Old 11 August 2022, 06:20 AM   #72
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I dont see it as being hypocritical, as those that left for LIV knew full well that they were going to banned from the PGA, Ryder and Pres Cups.. Like you, dont care either way, but you have to know the PGA wasnt going to take this on their back. They took the big payout and are SET FOR LIFE! Choices.
Not all! Big draw guys you bet. But the Henni Duplesis and half those other Nobody’s didn’t get the big cash like Lefty n DJ. Not even close.
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Old 11 August 2022, 06:25 AM   #73
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Ban ALL the traitors!!!

PGA4Life just like the nWo !!!!!!!!
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Old 11 August 2022, 06:30 AM   #74
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Ban ALL the traitors!!!

PGA4Life just like the nWo !!!!!!!!
The NWO were heels, so I bet they would've went to LIV


And also spray painted LIV right on the PGA Championship Trophy. Or perhaps here what Hollywood sprayed would be more like the NWA Championship, since PGA Tour doesn't run the PGA Championship and WCW using a NWA title would be consistent. If I was a betting man I would bet you're a AEW fanboy or better yet a AEW mark Chewy jk and great bringing the 90's back here.
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Old 11 August 2022, 07:04 AM   #75
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Ban ALL the traitors!!!

PGA4Life just like the nWo !!!!!!!!
Maybe the PGA needs cool jackets, you know, like a biker gang? Please don't tell me the PGA is still using the same color year after year after year after year? Maybe that's why LIV is getting more popular... better gang jackets.

And here some say LIV money can't buy everything. Man were they soooooo wrong! And it's not just golfers.
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Old 11 August 2022, 07:44 AM   #76
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… The PGA Tour, an American institution, can't compete with a foreign monarchy that is spending billions of dollars in an attempt to buy the game of golf.
"We welcome good, healthy competition. The LIV Saudi Golf League is not that. It's an irrational threat; one not concerned with the return on investment or true growth of the game….
This is a good talking point my furry friend.

It’s early days I suppose. Will LIV strike a network deal, or maybe something more akin to Netflix?
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Old 11 August 2022, 07:51 AM   #77
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PGA Tour vs LIV Traitors

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This is a good talking point my furry friend.

It’s early days I suppose. Will LIV strike a network deal, or maybe something more akin to Netflix?

Brian, at this point isn’t Netflix and the like essentially a network deal?


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Old 11 August 2022, 07:59 AM   #78
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Brian, at this point isn’t Netflix and the like essentially a network deal?


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I suppose they are

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Old 11 August 2022, 08:02 AM   #79
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One can’t ignore the multitude of PGA programs (over decades) helping juniors and others get into and enjoy golf. LIV is simply using oil bucks to buy in at the top….absolutely no contribution to the sport itself, just to the players that used the PGA and its affiliates to get where they’re at. Sure some may think the PGA as greedy and monopolistic, but if golf is nothing more than multimillionaire pros golfing when they want and how they want then I wouldn’t even consider it a serious sport. but If that’s what people want and sponsors agree, so be it. I won’t be watching LIV events.

Regardless of motive, Tiger earned back a lot of respect I had lost for him. Lefty lost what little respect I did have for him.

Just IMHO
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Old 11 August 2022, 08:05 AM   #80
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Brian, at this point isn’t Netflix and the like essentially a network deal?


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I'm not a massive fan of the newer Netflix content (their older was less manufactured/influenced), but I'll give them credit at least they run in 4K/UHD and Dolby Vision. Maybe one of these days network television will catch up with the times and stop showing everything in crappy 1080i (it's like time travel back to 2000-2010 when watching let alone ESPN's 720p, both are weak in the year 2022). Live golf in 4K and I'll be watching...
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Old 11 August 2022, 11:46 AM   #81
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I am openly rooting for the PGA. Besides running a first rate, professional golf tour, they have donated more money to charitable organizations than any other professional sport, and probably more than all professional sports combined.

For the guys who flocked to LIV, I believe they they forgot who was responsible for the hundreds of millions of dollars they already made, and provided them with the vehicle for the recognition sufficient for LIV to even know they existed.

Personally, I feel the tour should be able to set its own guidelines regarding who can play and given the depth of the tour, the "traitors" won't be missed. However the legal side of me isn't entirely confident the higher courts will share the same opinion. But at least for now, the edge goes to the PGA. Take that Greg Norman.
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Old 11 August 2022, 02:57 PM   #82
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I am openly rooting for the PGA. Besides running a first rate, professional golf tour, they have donated more money to charitable organizations than any other professional sport, and probably more than all professional sports combined.

For the guys who flocked to LIV, I believe they they forgot who was responsible for the hundreds of millions of dollars they already made, and provided them with the vehicle for the recognition sufficient for LIV to even know they existed.

Personally, I feel the tour should be able to set its own guidelines regarding who can play and given the depth of the tour, the "traitors" won't be missed. However the legal side of me isn't entirely confident the higher courts will share the same opinion. But at least for now, the edge goes to the PGA. Take that Greg Norman.

Are they not responsible for the millions of dollars they already made? The PGA gave them nothing. They either had to get through Q school, get a sponsor exemption, or Monday qualify to get on tour . The pga tour provides them nothing. Then, they have to play well enough to keep their card or they are gone. The pga tour might be putting up the money for the events, but it’s not as if the tour is a non profit. They are putting on competition because it’s good business for them. On top of the $0 in guaranteed money for the players talents, they are told they have to play a minimum of 14/15 events per year (same with liv).

The PGA tour had nothing to do with the success of these players on their tour. Their isn’t a pga program for players to help them succeed. The new guys get very limited starts, and have to play the greatest year of their life to keep their card given the limited number of events that most new PGA tour guys get.

I agree with you however, the PGA tour should be free to set whatever guidelines they want about who can play on their tour. If a guy leaves, he shouldn’t be able to come back if that’s outside of the PGA tour guidelines. Yes, they are independent contractors but you can’t play on a rival tour and expect to also stay on your home tour. Or pick and chose what to play.

I do think this is going to be a very long process and the PGA tour will eventually be forced to fold in one way or another. All you need is 40-50% of the top 100, and it’s over. Liv has something like 25% of the top 100 right now, and once the playoffs are through, i would be surprised if Cam Smith is the only player to jump ship. These guys want to play against the best in the world, and week after week, that number is dwindling.

I mentioned it in a previous post but it’s important to understand. Jt is 10th on the all time money list at 50M. Cam smith is reportedly getting double that to move to liv. This is a guy with 15 wins and 2 majors and their are a handful of liv guys with much worse careers getting 50M+ to go play golf 14 times a year. It’s unfathomable money. Plus if you play like a donkey one week and your team plays well, you get paid. Pat Perez made like $750k when he had one of his worst weeks, wouldn’t have made the cut in a pga tour event, and only had to play 3 rounds.

One thing we haven’t heard is if the caddy percentage has changed. If it hasn’t, liv tour is the greatest caddying gig of all time! Worst case at 5% they make $7,500 a week, with no risk. Their player always makes the cut and they have a guaranteed check. If their player gets a team win, it could be a $38,000 week when their player wins 750k.

I can obviously rant about this all day. At this point, the liv coverage IMO, is not great. I like network coverage, minus the terrible commercials. Once liv gets to a major network, it could get very interesting. If that never happens, i don’t think liv can get as big as they want to.


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Old 12 August 2022, 03:26 AM   #83
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I am openly rooting for the PGA. Besides running a first rate, professional golf tour, they have donated more money to charitable organizations than any other professional sport, and probably more than all professional sports combined.

For the guys who flocked to LIV, I believe they they forgot who was responsible for the hundreds of millions of dollars they already made, and provided them with the vehicle for the recognition sufficient for LIV to even know they existed.

Personally, I feel the tour should be able to set its own guidelines regarding who can play and given the depth of the tour, the "traitors" won't be missed. However the legal side of me isn't entirely confident the higher courts will share the same opinion. But at least for now, the edge goes to the PGA. Take that Greg Norman.
I think Tiger Woods is the one responsible for players getting the opportunity to make money on Tour. He brought in most all the big-name advertisers in the 90's and 2000's with his play/ratings. I think Greg has always been a little jealous of that, just like Johnny Miller. While Jack and Arnold saw it as a true passing of the torch and growing the game with Tiger. Phil has brought in a lot of ratings over the years too.

I think the PGA Tour is best for golf in the US too and competition. Too bad PGA and LIV can't work towards an agreement to have on and off-seasons. PGA went too aggressive probably with making theirs a year-round tour. Ideally, the compromise for fans may be to go back to the old PGA Tour off-season and then let LIV run globally focused tournaments for the off-season that are in a different format such as teams (and no credit towards Majors qualifying). Make it fun with President's Cup/Ryder Cup style format and allow Captains to draft teams like the NBA All-Star Game (I think will work better in golf than NBA).
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Old 12 August 2022, 05:06 AM   #84
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I dont see it as being hypocritical, as those that left for LIV knew full well that they were going to banned from the PGA, Ryder and Pres Cups.. Like you, dont care either way, but you have to know the PGA wasnt going to take this on their back. They took the big payout and are SET FOR LIFE! Choices.
I think the PGA overstepped and I think they will lose in court. No issue with them defending their brand.
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Old 12 August 2022, 05:12 AM   #85
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Are they not responsible for the millions of dollars they already made? The PGA gave them nothing. They either had to get through Q school, get a sponsor exemption, or Monday qualify to get on tour . The pga tour provides them nothing. Then, they have to play well enough to keep their card or they are gone. The pga tour might be putting up the money for the events, but it’s not as if the tour is a non profit. They are putting on competition because it’s good business for them. On top of the $0 in guaranteed money for the players talents, they are told they have to play a minimum of 14/15 events per year (same with liv).

The PGA tour had nothing to do with the success of these players on their tour. Their isn’t a pga program for players to help them succeed. The new guys get very limited starts, and have to play the greatest year of their life to keep their card given the limited number of events that most new PGA tour guys get.

I agree with you however, the PGA tour should be free to set whatever guidelines they want about who can play on their tour. If a guy leaves, he shouldn’t be able to come back if that’s outside of the PGA tour guidelines. Yes, they are independent contractors but you can’t play on a rival tour and expect to also stay on your home tour. Or pick and chose what to play.

I do think this is going to be a very long process and the PGA tour will eventually be forced to fold in one way or another. All you need is 40-50% of the top 100, and it’s over. Liv has something like 25% of the top 100 right now, and once the playoffs are through, i would be surprised if Cam Smith is the only player to jump ship. These guys want to play against the best in the world, and week after week, that number is dwindling.

I mentioned it in a previous post but it’s important to understand. Jt is 10th on the all time money list at 50M. Cam smith is reportedly getting double that to move to liv. This is a guy with 15 wins and 2 majors and their are a handful of liv guys with much worse careers getting 50M+ to go play golf 14 times a year. It’s unfathomable money. Plus if you play like a donkey one week and your team plays well, you get paid. Pat Perez made like $750k when he had one of his worst weeks, wouldn’t have made the cut in a pga tour event, and only had to play 3 rounds.

One thing we haven’t heard is if the caddy percentage has changed. If it hasn’t, liv tour is the greatest caddying gig of all time! Worst case at 5% they make $7,500 a week, with no risk. Their player always makes the cut and they have a guaranteed check. If their player gets a team win, it could be a $38,000 week when their player wins 750k.

I can obviously rant about this all day. At this point, the liv coverage IMO, is not great. I like network coverage, minus the terrible commercials. Once liv gets to a major network, it could get very interesting. If that never happens, i don’t think liv can get as big as they want to.


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Agreed, the PGA Tour gave these guys a platform to play, that's all. They are all self-made using their talent and marketing ability. If anything, the PGA Tour would be nothing without them.
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Old 12 August 2022, 05:39 AM   #86
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Agreed, the PGA Tour gave these guys a platform to play, that's all. They are all self-made using their talent and marketing ability. If anything, the PGA Tour would be nothing without them.
Can't we say that about every league?
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Old 12 August 2022, 05:59 AM   #87
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Can't we say that about every league?
Yes, but the majority of other leagues give their players contracts, usually guaranteed money. LIV is following this model, which is why so many players are jumping ship.
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Old 9 September 2022, 11:22 PM   #88
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Can’t spell Tour
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Old 9 September 2022, 11:41 PM   #89
enjoythemusic
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Old 10 September 2022, 12:09 AM   #90
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Millionaires fighting against Billionaire's is a yawn to me. I don’t support either entity in this financial squabble. My only support is to the game of golf, an honorable and honest game it should be.

IMO none of this $ would be worth fighting over without TW. Everyone of them involved should understand this and kiss the ring. The PGA monopoly brought this upon themselves. IMO the PGA tour just come off as scared of the foreign big bad wolf! Just another example of American laziness and entitlement in the 21st century.

P.S. the above post looks like fake news from a fake account.

Off to the course for me.
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