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Old 4 October 2017, 12:26 PM   #121
Star Ferry
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Business is booming. Stocks are, and have been for almost a year, at all time highs. Unemployment is low, if I read it right, we are what is considered "full employment". Movies are doing poorly. You know why? Part of it could be that the movies are terrible. But some of it is when times are good, people don't go to the movies. Movies are cheap entertainment. Car loans and a mortgage loans are dirt cheap. They about give cars away these days. Try buying a new house with 14% interest and a new car at 12%.
-- Business is booming, but wages are stagnant. And poor people generally don't own corporate stock.
-- Millennials are probably torrenting the movies online. I doubt it's because they're all busy doing something more expensive and fun
-- On the topic of interest rates, cheap money is a moot point for those who don't qualify. If a millennial has consumer debt, he/she probably does pay over 14% apr because it's a credit card balance

Powerfunk has a point. It's hard to blame people for their bad behavior when they lack a realistic shot at a better future.
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Old 4 October 2017, 10:30 PM   #122
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It's because people are complex, dogs are simple. A person's relationship with a dog will always be simpler, easier, and require less effort than developing and maintaining a relationship with another human being.

The soaring dog-ownership numbers in the U.S. (appx 90 million) could be a reflection of the obvious downward trend of human-to-human social skills and rise of narcissistic, obnoxious behavior that goes with an hyper-inflated sense of entitlement that blocks opposing viewpoints and encourages superficial social media relationships.

One can be an obnoxious ass to every other human in the world at large, and yet that person's dog(s) will still love them and be excited to have their company. There will be no rebuke for bad behavior from the dog, ever. Indeed, unlike a pet turtle or fish or even a cat, the dog will key on the owner's reactions to the world and others in it and therefore gives affirmation to the owner's behavior and viewpoint no matter what. Even the friend-telling-a-friend when he/she is wrong dynamic between humans is completely lost, because a dog never disagrees with any opinion.

For those who go through life as superficial, hyper-Narcissists and/or obnoxious d-bags who can't drive to work or have a discussion without losing their minds, a relationship with a dog that exhibits it's animal version of "love" and "friendship" towards the hand that feeds it will be the deepest, most-rewarding one they'll ever know. For that type of person, a dog is a perfect companion because they'll never have any indicator from the dog they are what they are. No judgement hassles whatsoever like they'd get from a human because it's a relationship devoid of any rational thought and therefore one-sided, a dog's nature will only help to serve self-centeredness if that self-centered person can't stand being alone.

None of the the above should be construed as thinking all dog owners are self-centered, narcissistic and/or obnoxious. But due to the nature of a domesticated dog, I'm merely pointing out that there could be a correlation between the falling level of civility in our society and rising numbers of dog ownership. The huge numbers of unwanted and abandoned dogs can't be ignored either. Unwanted/abandoned dog numbers would be a reflection of the rising numbers of people who want companionship and yet once they find out even a Person-Dog relationship requires some effort and is an ongoing responsibility, abandons it as well.
It is an interesting dichotomy that by and large all the dog owners I know are very nice and generous people and yet the relationship with a dog is essentially one of owner and slave, where you have absolute and total control. The lovely and respectable Joneses having a little BDSM hobby on the side.
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Old 4 October 2017, 11:06 PM   #123
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It is an interesting dichotomy that by and large all the dog owners I know are very nice and generous people and yet the relationship with a dog is essentially one of owner and slave, where you have absolute and total control. The lovely and respectable Joneses having a little BDSM hobby on the side.
You're in for it now Neil.
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Old 5 October 2017, 01:18 AM   #124
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Car forums are horrible for this.
Fanboys, everyone hates them

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I would guess the per capita murder rate was a lot higher way back when. If history and Hollywood has taught us anything, it would be that murder was common back in the day. You're in the Wild West and someone bumps into you, it ends with a dual in the street. Prospecting for gold and bump into an indian tribe, kill them or be killer. Medieval times and someone disrespects your house, run your sword through them. However, the world didn't hear about these events. They were not tweeted or live streamed to the world.
Interesting, so I tried to look it up. Murder is one facet of "hate". But its difficult to assess because looking at the historical record, one has to exclude "war", which is another facet of hate, and records don't seem include murder: in lands like ancient China or the like; against slaves; against anyone warred against (i.e., native Americans). But generally, the current rate is about 5 (always per 100,000 people). Also records sometimes conflict but trends do exist. There has been two big cycles in the 1900s, first in the 20s when it peaked near 10 and in the 80s around 10. Around 1900 and today its around 5 or less. Cities are much higher in 20s or more. One might attribute the higher rates because of the gangsters of the 20s and drugs in the 80s but I don't know the real reason.

Prior to that the numbers are all over the place. Most people only know the Hollywood image of the gunfighter. But some reading indicates that was a fantasy. Some cities like Dodge might have been the same rates are current US cities like Chicago, NY, and Balt. But mostly people were trying to farm and such. The drop might have been because towns and cities started to have police forces. Before that, it gets much worse. From the fall of the Romans until 1800, you got stabbed deep you were in big trouble. So murder didn't actually required severe damage. Just get a deep puncture would and they didn't know how to operate or understand infection, you died. And going back to the Roman Empire, I think it was far worse. Life was cheap. No police, just "vigilantes" Vigiles Urbani. And remember, none of the murder rates includes deaths, AFAIK or could tell, of slaves from the Greeks until modern times.

I suspect today is a relatively peaceful time and it got much, much worse as one went back in time by centuries. So yeah, today, you instantly know everything going on as everyone has Twitter and you know immediately about death. In 1980, a peak murder rate time in the 20th century, one only got news from TV and papers. In 1930, another higher cycle, it was papers and radio. In 44 BC, well, good luck knowing that the farmer 10 miles away was murdered.

Hate has always existed and if one considered homicide as a primary measure, we doing pretty good these days.

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Originally Posted by Star Ferry View Post
-- Business is booming, but wages are stagnant. And poor people generally don't own corporate stock.
-- Millennials are probably torrenting the movies online. I doubt it's because they're all busy doing something more expensive and fun
-- On the topic of interest rates, cheap money is a moot point for those who don't qualify. If a millennial has consumer debt, he/she probably does pay over 14% apr because it's a credit card balance

Powerfunk has a point. It's hard to blame people for their bad behavior when they lack a realistic shot at a better future.
This is what he wrote: "everyone here is ... not [blaming] the economy. People tend to lash out if things aren't going well for them and they see little hope. I'm in my early 30's and basically nobody my age can buy a house without parental help, job stability is low, nobody can afford to have kids until they're 40, we can't rely on pensions or social security etc. Class mobility ain't what it used to be."

To that I claim nonsense. How about the Persian, Greek, and Roman slaves? How about the peasants and crop farmers? How about the Native Americans whose land was taken? You think they were happy?

While his point might have some validity in a current context say between 2006, pre-recession, until today, in the big scheme of life we live in luxury. There is no other way to put it, we lead luxurious lives with "welfare" and "social security". Get shot or in a car accident, you are whisked away to shock trauma. In the past, you just died, and usually by 40.

But for the OP, I do believe he is wrong, as its a matter of perception.

If it were 44 BC, you didn't know about the hate 10 miles away.
If it were 200 AD, you didn't know about the hate 15 miles away (maybe you owned a horse then)
If it were 1840, you didn't know about the hate 500 miles away (you had Pony Express or telegraph)
If it were 1929, you didn't know about the hate other than what the newspaper or radio told you - that is, they filtered it for you. Everyone should realize how much information was censored from the public. With the media acting as a middle man, this could have been worse than the past because know they decided what you read.

If it were 1980, you didn't know about the hate other than what newspapers, radio, or TV told, you, that is, the media filtered the hate for you.

Today? There is no need for any media. You instantly know about all the hatred in the world. Instantly.

No one is filtering it. No one is interpreting it for you. This means someone else isn't deciding what you see and hear.

And that's what the OP is missing.
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Old 5 October 2017, 01:37 AM   #125
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How about the Persian, Greek, and Roman slaves? How about the peasants and crop farmers? How about the Native Americans whose land was taken? You think they were happy?
No, they probably had lots of grievances. What does that have to do with anything? Nobody should ever complain about anything because someone in history was worse off?

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in the big scheme of life we live in luxury.
That's your only justification for calling "nonsense" on my post? We appear to have creature comforts and conveniences, so we don't get to complain, period basically? That's honestly a mindset a lot of young people are tired of hearing. If you want to casually dismiss all of the indicators that my generation is facing an uphill economic battle, that's your prerogative. It's not about how pleasant our present lives are; it's about realistic expectations for the future.
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Old 5 October 2017, 02:50 AM   #126
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No, they probably had lots of grievances. What does that have to do with anything?
It has everything to do with this. Its what your not seeing.

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That's your only justification for calling "nonsense" on my post? We appear to have creature comforts and conveniences, so we don't get to complain, period basically?
No. I'm sure all these things are important to you. Just like 14% interest rates and two income families were important to those in the 80s. And all through history.

See #1. EVERYONE, throughout history, hates something, and the farther back you go time, it likely true the "hate" is much more vast because they had it a "lot tougher" than today.

If you want to casually dismiss all of the indicators that my generation is facing an uphill economic battle,

No, I'm not. I'm saying they are no different than the past. EVERYONE has economic problems. And YES, do not dismiss those sent to debtors prison. Yes, it was a real thing. Can't pay your bill? Go to prison until you could.

See the point?

But today, you (generically being everyone) can complain instantly to the world. POOR ME!!! What am I to do? I have to work until I'm 65. I won't have social security because the Baby Boomers used it all.

You have a platform

But throughout history, others do not. Hence "hate" is visible. So when the OP says

Everywhere I look, on every comment section basically everywhere...

Every forum, every news site, every fitness site, every car site....

Haters. The absolute vast majority are haters.


And you say "poor me, I can't buy a house" Well lots of people can't buy house. But "you" have a platform.

Those in the past don't

This wasn't a "when I was a kid we walked through a snowstorm to school without shoes" argument. No, its a "you can't can't compare apples to oranges" argument.
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Old 5 October 2017, 02:55 AM   #127
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POOR ME!!! What am I to do? I have to work until I'm 65.
65?! I should be so lucky. I guarantee a huge portion of my generation will have to work until they die. I'm serious. But yeah, boo hoo, we're a bunch of crybabies.
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Old 5 October 2017, 02:57 AM   #128
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I'm so glad I didn't join this thread, what a bunch of haters.
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Old 5 October 2017, 03:17 AM   #129
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Fact is, society does change over time. The generational wealth gap has never been larger. Mr Twi, appreciate your perspective, and please don't force the mods to lock the thread
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Old 5 October 2017, 03:43 AM   #130
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Mr Twi has some excellent points to consider. Well reasoned and thought provoking, regardless of your perspective.


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Old 5 October 2017, 04:28 AM   #131
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Mr Twi has some excellent points to consider. Well reasoned and thought provoking, regardless of your perspective.
Agreed. Everyday life and basic survival presents its ongoing challenges regardless of the timeframe.
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Old 5 October 2017, 05:51 AM   #132
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Mr Twi, appreciate your perspective, and please don't force the mods to lock the thread
Not my intention at all. The OP asked for input. I don't think he looked beyond the immediate.

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Fact is, society does change over time. The generational wealth gap has never been larger.
Source? Where is the data? I'd like to read it. Your talking generational wealth. All I can find is "predictions" about millennials in the future. Predictions are meaningless.

If you were to ask this question say in 1930, why do I think you might get the answer that the WWII generation, the greatest generation, might have been doomed? Surely those alive in the Roaring Twenties must have been living the large life and BOOM, suicides as some jumped from windows. After all, the depression depressed the entire world and nothing has come close to the Great Depression since. And magically the world came out of the Great Depression, survived, and has gone onto new heights.

Perspective. :)
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Old 5 October 2017, 07:02 AM   #133
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I'm so glad I didn't join this thread, what a bunch of haters.
I know, I hate haters.
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Old 5 October 2017, 07:05 AM   #134
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I know, I hate haters.
I hate when people say that.
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Old 5 October 2017, 07:11 AM   #135
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Not my intention at all. The OP asked for input. I don't think he looked beyond the immediate.



Source? Where is the data? I'd like to read it. Your talking generational wealth. All I can find is "predictions" about millennials in the future. Predictions are meaningless.

If you were to ask this question say in 1930, why do I think you might get the answer that the WWII generation, the greatest generation, might have been doomed? Surely those alive in the Roaring Twenties must have been living the large life and BOOM, suicides as some jumped from windows. After all, the depression depressed the entire world and nothing has come close to the Great Depression since. And magically the world came out of the Great Depression, survived, and has gone onto new heights.

Perspective. :)
Interesting argument when you are the one who predicts the darkest outcome of all on GOT, that all of mankind will be killed by the undead and turned into one of them, a worse fate than any Persian or Roman slave or any wretch in history. No one is going to come thru that.

Just glad you're on the side of the living, you had me worried on the other thread.
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Old 5 October 2017, 08:06 AM   #136
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LOL

GOT = Fake

This be real ;)
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Old 5 October 2017, 12:29 PM   #137
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Source? Where is the data? I'd like to read it. Your talking generational wealth. All I can find is "predictions" about millennials in the future. Predictions are meaningless.

Forbes: Wealth Inequality Between Young and Old Generations Reaches Record High (2011)


https://www.forbes.com/sites/evapere...cord-high/amp/

Washington Post: The growing wealth gap that nobody is talking about (2015)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.3bd6d90e2341

Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis: An Even Wider Generational Wealth Gap? (2017)


https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-ec...nal-wealth-gap
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Old 6 October 2017, 12:53 AM   #138
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Forbes: Wealth Inequality Between Young and Old Generations Reaches Record High (2011)


https://www.forbes.com/sites/evapere...cord-high/amp/

Washington Post: The growing wealth gap that nobody is talking about (2015)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.3bd6d90e2341

Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis: An Even Wider Generational Wealth Gap? (2017)


https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-ec...nal-wealth-gap
Thank you!

None of these sources are original material. They are summaries of someone elses work. Lets go to the originals.

Your original comment: The generational wealth gap has never been larger.

Source 1 refers to Pew http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/...c=prc-headline it only goes back to the 80s. In no way does that help for “never been larger”.

Source 2 and 3 refer to identical research. Lets go to the original. https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/F...ear-Wealth.pdf This is much better, more research going to the turn of the century. What would have happened if this study was done in 1940? What would it have said? Given the US was STILL in the Great Depression, as it was only WWII that brought the US out of the depression, what would they have said about the "Silent Generation, people born in say 1930 vice 25 years earlier in 1905?

You think they might have thought them hopeless waiting in bread lines, desperate for work with NO hope of ever finding it?

Ever talk to someone who lived through the great Depression? Through the hardships they went through? In the worst of 2008, it was nothing compared to the 30s. And this is why I don't think one can say "the gap has never been larger." Take a snapshot, just like this is a snapshot, in the 30s. Maybe I missed something in the original material #2?
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Old 17 October 2017, 12:17 AM   #139
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A big amen there,,, I'm 56 btw.

+100 . I am a decade or so behind you gentlemen and believe me when I say this..

The world and the majority of the people in it have gone to the toilet!

Hey at least we have each other here on RF!
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