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txrob779 · 8 October 2007, 06:37 AM

OK here is what puzzles me. The clasp was broken, not the movement. So, maybe it needed a re-lume, so be it. RSC's start about $475 for a complete service. A new Submariner oyster bracelet is about $850. This mysterious "inversor wheel" cannot possibly cost that much. If the RSC watchsmith disassembled the entire movment and replaced a wheel of somekind that still should not be that much. However lets assume that the whole bracelet including the clasp needed replacing, thats like $1000.00, the movement service minimum $475.00, new crystal ????? Your still coming out about the same or a few hundred more but I can bet you it would look and work like new. There are many a many old tore up watchsmiths and even some young incompetent ones that have no buiness working on a Rolex. As much as I hate to say it man, you got ripped off and you got a half ass working looking Rolex. It would cause me to miss meals, yell at my wife and have road rage. I wouldn't be about to deal with it. I am too OCD to have flaws with my $5000 watch. PERIOD

Ken Cox · 8 October 2007, 07:46 AM

If I lived alone, I might put this watch in a drawer and forget it.

However, my wife sacrificed to get this watch for me, and I can tell this misadventure has hurt her.

I feel a responsibility to make this right.

I happen to have the next six months off, due to a medical leave for something like chemotherapy, and this would make a good project to keep me busy.

I have the time to travel to this watchmaker's location and get a lawyer.

I wonder what legal grounds I might have to recover my money.

He has held himself out on his web site as a Rolex expert, and yet he advised me to do something to my watch that decreased its value, and he did a poor job of it.

Further, if he received the watch, as he says, with only one half turn available on the crown, why didn't he include it in his repair estimate?

And, not correctly setting the hands?

And, when I sent him the watch, it gained about 1/3 second per day.
It now looses 1.5 to 2 seconds a day.

Given the doubts I now have about the crown and the inversor wheel (?), I don't feel very comfortable about sending it back to him.

I would feel obligated to have the watch inspected for original parts and movement when it came back (happily, I have the original box and papers), and what would that cost?

And what does a new face cost?

So, does anyone have experience with pursuing these things legally, with lawyers and courts and affidavits?

This watchmaker might have gone through this before, and it would help, the next time I communicate with him, to know my legal rights.

timebroker · 8 October 2007, 08:01 AM

There are a couple of lawyers on TRF, maybe they'll be able to answer those questions regarding possibilities.
I for one would go all the way if he does not make up for his mistakes.

mike · 8 October 2007, 08:19 AM

Ken,

I'm not a lawyer so I don't feel qualified to give any legal advice on your plight, but it seems to me at this point you have a couple options with regard to your watch. (Again, these are only my opinions, other may have better advice).

1. Send the watch to an RSC for a complete service. This of course will be putting a lot of money into the watch, and in all honesty will put you upside down.
The closest RSC to you in in Beverly Hills. They do fantastic work! I've had watches done by them and couldn't be more pleased. They will do a complete service including replacing the dial and hands with current service replacements. They will of course be luminova, tritium is not longer used. The dial will say "SWISS" on the bottom indicating a luminova replacement. Price for service about $475-$500. Price for dial and hands, about $300 (give or take) The bracelet will be additional, however your old one will be taken on trade. Price with trade about $600.
That's a lot, but the watch will be all correct and come with a Rolex international one year warranty.

2. Source a tritium dial and hands for a reference 16760. Send the watch and dial and hands to the nearest INDEPENDENT Rolex service center to you. I believe that would be San Francisco.

Rolex Service Center
210 Post St. #705
San Francisco Ca. 94108
(415) 982-9830

While these are Independents, they use Rolex parts, have trained watchmakers and are NOT bound by Rolex's sometimes restrictive service policies. Result-your watch will be period correct.
I do not know how easy it would be to source a dial and hands,( I would start with a "want to buy) on several forum sales corners) nor an I sure a trit. dial from an early 16710 would work. Part of me wants to say it would, but I'm not certain as to dial feet position.
Again this will be significant $$$, but would put you where you want to be with the watch.

It would certainly be nice if at least some of the cost could be off set by at least a partial rebate from the person that worked on your watch.

Good luck!

And, by the way, I pray your medical concerns turn out OK.

Downing · 8 October 2007, 09:22 AM

Since this is a property damage case, even though I am a lawyer this is not the kind of work I do so I'm not the best guy to weigh in on this. But doing a cost/benefit analysis here, given the dollar amounts involved so far I'd say this is more the stuff of small claims, where lawyers aren't needed and in fact at least here aren't even welcome.

Frankly, you're liable to rack up more in legal fees than the case is worth, which I'm sure you don't want to do.

However, I could be wrong. Just wanted to give you a heads up. You definitely want to have that discussion with any lawyer you may want to hire.

Whatever you do, don't do what Rob would do. You'll just end up giving yourself an ulcer, terrifying your already upset wife and possibly getting arrested--all without getting any closer to a resolution of your problem. But if that does happen, the good news is then I am qualified to help (with the arrest part, I mean).

BLSampson · 8 October 2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike

Ken,

I'm not a lawyer so I don't feel qualified to give any legal advice on your plight, but it seems to me at this point you have a couple options with regard to your watch. (Again, these are only my opinions, other may have better advice).

1. Send the watch to an RSC for a complete service. This of course will be putting a lot of money into the watch, and in all honesty will put you upside down.
The closest RSC to you in in Beverly Hills. They do fantastic work! I've had watches done by them and couldn't be more pleased. They will do a complete service including replacing the dial and hands with current service replacements. They will of course be luminova, tritium is not longer used. The dial will say "SWISS" on the bottom indicating a luminova replacement. Price for service about $475-$500. Price for dial and hands, about $300 (give or take) The bracelet will be additional, however your old one will be taken on trade. Price with trade about $600.
That's a lot, but the watch will be all correct and come with a Rolex international one year warranty.

2. Source a tritium dial and hands for a reference 16760. Send the watch and dial and hands to the nearest INDEPENDENT Rolex service center to you. I believe that would be San Francisco.

Rolex Service Center
210 Post St. #705
San Francisco Ca. 94108
(415) 982-9830

While these are Independents, they use Rolex parts, have trained watchmakers and are NOT bound by Rolex's sometimes restrictive service policies. Result-your watch will be period correct.
I do not know how easy it would be to source a dial and hands,( I would start with a "want to buy) on several forum sales corners) nor an I sure a trit. dial from an early 16710 would work. Part of me wants to say it would, but I'm not certain as to dial feet position.
Again this will be significant $$$, but would put you where you want to be with the watch.

It would certainly be nice if at least some of the cost could be off set by at least a partial rebate from the person that worked on your watch.

Good luck!

And, by the way, I pray your medical concerns turn out OK.

Ken,
I just got my 1675 back from the RSC in San Francisco. They are very helpful and I couldn't be more pleased with their work. Call them. Kim is their receptionist and tell her that Bryan (the Republican from Kansas City) recommended them. Good Luck.

txrob779 · 8 October 2007, 11:23 AM

I was kidding about the OCD stuff LOL...........it would bother me though

Rockrolex · 8 October 2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downing

Since this is a property damage case, even though I am a lawyer this is not the kind of work I do so I'm not the best guy to weigh in on this. But doing a cost/benefit analysis here, given the dollar amounts involved so far I'd say this is more the stuff of small claims, where lawyers aren't needed and in fact at least here aren't even welcome.

Frankly, you're liable to rack up more in legal fees than the case is worth, which I'm sure you don't want to do.

However, I could be wrong. Just wanted to give you a heads up. You definitely want to have that discussion with any lawyer you may want to hire.

Whatever you do, don't do what Rob would do. You'll just end up giving yourself an ulcer, terrifying your already upset wife and possibly getting arrested--all without getting any closer to a resolution of your problem. But if that does happen, the good news is then I am qualified to help (with the arrest part, I mean).

I agree with you, Downing. This is more a matter for Small Claims court (where lawyers are generally not welcomed). I would have the watch looked at by RSC and get a written estimate from them for (a) what is not original on the watch; (b) what may be wrong with the watch: and (c) what will be the cost of the repair/service. You can then take that to Small Claims court

BTW, Ken, this is not my area of law either. But if you come up with a new type of "inversor wheel", give me a call and I may be able to help you get it patented.

Ken Cox · 8 October 2007, 12:17 PM

Well, it would cost me $350 for a round-trip ticket, $100 for a room, and another $100 for a car, meals and incidentals.
I think it would help to get some advice and coaching from a lawyer before going to small claims court - half hour or an hour of a lawyer's time.
In addition to the damages to the watch, could I recover any of those expenses from small claims court?

I like the idea of getting the watch inspected by an impartial examiner, and getting an estimate for making things right.

Given that it appears the watchmaker over-charged me, and failed to adequately perform other tasks for which I paid him, perhaps he would reimburse or refund me the price of getting it fixed by another watch maker.

It might hurt his pride, but then it might also cost him less in the long run, and protect whatever good reputation he has.

I really don't accuse him of anything: I've just lost confidence in him.

Downing · 8 October 2007, 01:05 PM

Ken, consulting with an attorney is a good idea. You'll want to do that in the jurisdiction where you file so you'll get briefed on local laws and customs. He or she should be able to tell you what you're entitled to recover.

You may be able to go through that state's Bar Association to find a lawyer. I know here in Oregon we have the Lawyer Referral Service for situations like this. You call them, describe the problem (as a property damage claim in this case) and they give you the names and phone numbers of three local attorneys who practice in that area of the law. Check that Bar's website.

Sounds like you're counting on only one trip. That might not be realistic. First, you need to consult with an attorney. Then you're going to need to file the complaint. Then you're going to have to perfect service. Then you're going to have to get a court date, which may or may not be setover one or more times. And if/when you get a Judgment, then you'll still have to collect on it, which will cost still more time and money unless he just coughs it up, which in my experience is unlikely.

Maybe another way to handle this would be to contact the watchmaker and let him know what's happened and that you're now going to send it to an RSC. See if he'll reimburse you for at least some of the bill. Who knows, it might just work.

8 October 2007, 09:22 AM	#35
Downing "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Real Name: Downing Location: Portland, Oregon Watch: SD ExpII GO Nav ND Posts: 1,640	Since this is a property damage case, even though I am a lawyer this is not the kind of work I do so I'm not the best guy to weigh in on this. But doing a cost/benefit analysis here, given the dollar amounts involved so far I'd say this is more the stuff of small claims, where lawyers aren't needed and in fact at least here aren't even welcome. Frankly, you're liable to rack up more in legal fees than the case is worth, which I'm sure you don't want to do. However, I could be wrong. Just wanted to give you a heads up. You definitely want to have that discussion with any lawyer you may want to hire. Whatever you do, don't do what Rob would do. You'll just end up giving yourself an ulcer, terrifying your already upset wife and possibly getting arrested--all without getting any closer to a resolution of your problem. But if that does happen, the good news is then I am qualified to help (with the arrest part, I mean). __________________ One if by land, one if by sea, one if by air and one uh, just to tell time. Rolex Explorer II White Rolex Sea-Dweller Glashütte Original Navigator Panerai 183 G Black Seal

8 October 2007, 01:05 PM	#40
Downing "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Real Name: Downing Location: Portland, Oregon Watch: SD ExpII GO Nav ND Posts: 1,640	Ken, consulting with an attorney is a good idea. You'll want to do that in the jurisdiction where you file so you'll get briefed on local laws and customs. He or she should be able to tell you what you're entitled to recover. You may be able to go through that state's Bar Association to find a lawyer. I know here in Oregon we have the Lawyer Referral Service for situations like this. You call them, describe the problem (as a property damage claim in this case) and they give you the names and phone numbers of three local attorneys who practice in that area of the law. Check that Bar's website. Sounds like you're counting on only one trip. That might not be realistic. First, you need to consult with an attorney. Then you're going to need to file the complaint. Then you're going to have to perfect service. Then you're going to have to get a court date, which may or may not be setover one or more times. And if/when you get a Judgment, then you'll still have to collect on it, which will cost still more time and money unless he just coughs it up, which in my experience is unlikely. Maybe another way to handle this would be to contact the watchmaker and let him know what's happened and that you're now going to send it to an RSC. See if he'll reimburse you for at least some of the bill. Who knows, it might just work. __________________ One if by land, one if by sea, one if by air and one uh, just to tell time. Rolex Explorer II White Rolex Sea-Dweller Glashütte Original Navigator Panerai 183 G Black Seal

8 October 2007, 06:37 AM	#31
txrob779 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Real Name: Rob Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 488	OK here is what puzzles me. The clasp was broken, not the movement. So, maybe it needed a re-lume, so be it. RSC's start about $475 for a complete service. A new Submariner oyster bracelet is about $850. This mysterious "inversor wheel" cannot possibly cost that much. If the RSC watchsmith disassembled the entire movment and replaced a wheel of somekind that still should not be that much. However lets assume that the whole bracelet including the clasp needed replacing, thats like $1000.00, the movement service minimum $475.00, new crystal ????? Your still coming out about the same or a few hundred more but I can bet you it would look and work like new. There are many a many old tore up watchsmiths and even some young incompetent ones that have no buiness working on a Rolex. As much as I hate to say it man, you got ripped off and you got a half ass working looking Rolex. It would cause me to miss meals, yell at my wife and have road rage. I wouldn't be about to deal with it. I am too OCD to have flaws with my $5000 watch. PERIOD

8 October 2007, 07:46 AM	#32
Ken Cox "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Real Name: Ken Cox Location: Bend, Oregon, USA Watch: GMT Master II Posts: 469	If I lived alone, I might put this watch in a drawer and forget it. However, my wife sacrificed to get this watch for me, and I can tell this misadventure has hurt her. I feel a responsibility to make this right. I happen to have the next six months off, due to a medical leave for something like chemotherapy, and this would make a good project to keep me busy. I have the time to travel to this watchmaker's location and get a lawyer. I wonder what legal grounds I might have to recover my money. He has held himself out on his web site as a Rolex expert, and yet he advised me to do something to my watch that decreased its value, and he did a poor job of it. Further, if he received the watch, as he says, with only one half turn available on the crown, why didn't he include it in his repair estimate? And, not correctly setting the hands? And, when I sent him the watch, it gained about 1/3 second per day. It now looses 1.5 to 2 seconds a day. Given the doubts I now have about the crown and the inversor wheel (?), I don't feel very comfortable about sending it back to him. I would feel obligated to have the watch inspected for original parts and movement when it came back (happily, I have the original box and papers), and what would that cost? And what does a new face cost? So, does anyone have experience with pursuing these things legally, with lawyers and courts and affidavits? This watchmaker might have gone through this before, and it would help, the next time I communicate with him, to know my legal rights.

8 October 2007, 08:01 AM	#33
timebroker "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Real Name: Filip Location: Belgium Posts: 1,619	There are a couple of lawyers on TRF, maybe they'll be able to answer those questions regarding possibilities. I for one would go all the way if he does not make up for his mistakes.

8 October 2007, 08:19 AM	#34
mike "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 22,683	Ken, I'm not a lawyer so I don't feel qualified to give any legal advice on your plight, but it seems to me at this point you have a couple options with regard to your watch. (Again, these are only my opinions, other may have better advice). 1. Send the watch to an RSC for a complete service. This of course will be putting a lot of money into the watch, and in all honesty will put you upside down. The closest RSC to you in in Beverly Hills. They do fantastic work! I've had watches done by them and couldn't be more pleased. They will do a complete service including replacing the dial and hands with current service replacements. They will of course be luminova, tritium is not longer used. The dial will say "SWISS" on the bottom indicating a luminova replacement. Price for service about $475-$500. Price for dial and hands, about $300 (give or take) The bracelet will be additional, however your old one will be taken on trade. Price with trade about $600. That's a lot, but the watch will be all correct and come with a Rolex international one year warranty. 2. Source a tritium dial and hands for a reference 16760. Send the watch and dial and hands to the nearest INDEPENDENT Rolex service center to you. I believe that would be San Francisco. Rolex Service Center 210 Post St. #705 San Francisco Ca. 94108 (415) 982-9830 While these are Independents, they use Rolex parts, have trained watchmakers and are NOT bound by Rolex's sometimes restrictive service policies. Result-your watch will be period correct. I do not know how easy it would be to source a dial and hands,( I would start with a "want to buy) on several forum sales corners) nor an I sure a trit. dial from an early 16710 would work. Part of me wants to say it would, but I'm not certain as to dial feet position. Again this will be significant $$$, but would put you where you want to be with the watch. It would certainly be nice if at least some of the cost could be off set by at least a partial rebate from the person that worked on your watch. Good luck! And, by the way, I pray your medical concerns turn out OK.

8 October 2007, 11:23 AM	#37
txrob779 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Real Name: Rob Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 488	I was kidding about the OCD stuff LOL...........it would bother me though

8 October 2007, 12:17 PM	#39
Ken Cox "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Real Name: Ken Cox Location: Bend, Oregon, USA Watch: GMT Master II Posts: 469	Well, it would cost me $350 for a round-trip ticket, $100 for a room, and another $100 for a car, meals and incidentals. I think it would help to get some advice and coaching from a lawyer before going to small claims court - half hour or an hour of a lawyer's time. In addition to the damages to the watch, could I recover any of those expenses from small claims court? I like the idea of getting the watch inspected by an impartial examiner, and getting an estimate for making things right. Given that it appears the watchmaker over-charged me, and failed to adequately perform other tasks for which I paid him, perhaps he would reimburse or refund me the price of getting it fixed by another watch maker. It might hurt his pride, but then it might also cost him less in the long run, and protect whatever good reputation he has. I really don't accuse him of anything: I've just lost confidence in him.

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