Red Submariner

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by SubKing

First,

You have personally attacked a sale thread of mine over on VRF calling out a part of mine as being fake. I then had to reach out to mods and Eric personally to have him confirm my part was indeed authentic, then he had to delete your comment from my thread. After speaking with other collectors, I quickly realized this is a common practice, for you to police all threads and on frequent occasion, calling out fake towards authentic parts from respected forum members. I am speaking on this because you have personally done it to me. So in my eyes, this takes away any and all credibility from anything that comes out of your mouth.



Second, If you feel ripping apart my personal 6538 for having service parts or make me out to be illiterate will help further prove your point about red subs; it won't. It only shows your true character.



I happen to love my 6538 and enjoy it every day, service parts and all.

Wow. So I did have the pleasure of making your acquaintance after all. I’m sorry but it must have been so insignificant that I don’t recall it. If your beef is with me, take it up with me. But please don’t insult the hobby that we both enjoy. Distorting the truth about the production numbers of the FF red sub and the true value of the FF red sub as a means to align yourself against me isn’t healthy for you, for me and the community at large.


If you had reached out to me and asked for an apology like a normal person, I would’ve given you one there and then. There’s no shame in admitting I was wrong, quite the opposite actually. VRF/TRF are all platforms for learning, and discussion. If my call was wrong, I learn from it, and if it was right, we learn from it. It then becomes knowledge that would aid me and/or you in the future. Since this was my fault, my sincerest apologies for the mistake made at your expense and I hope your sale went well.


As for your 6538, I’ve no qualms with it. However, I’ve got qualms about you asking me to collect stamps instead.


I hope with this chapter now behind us, we can move the discussion back towards an educated debate of the true value of FF red subs vs MF red subs.

[scooba]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

Beautiful casework !!


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Instagram: @mattedialdoc

Thankyou kind Sir,

I have been considering selling it , But now I don’t know what to do

[scooba]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

Stunning case and set. Out of the 11 FF Red Subs I own, only 3 are unpolished.

To Clarify ,

Andrew Said mine has been lightly Detailed , But Thankyou for the kind words, I like it and think it’s a amazing set and 22,500 seams cheap now , The Case is very strong the case back did have engraving on it according to the Guarantee card but that has been polished to remove it .

[mattedialdoc]

Originally Posted by scooba

To Clarify ,



Andrew Said mine has been lightly Detailed ....

Likely Beaus handiwork. Looks terrific.



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Instagram: @mattedialdoc

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

Wow. So I did have the pleasure of making your acquaintance after all. I’m sorry but it must have been so insignificant that I don’t recall it. If your beef is with me, take it up with me. But please don’t insult the hobby that we both enjoy. Distorting the truth about the production numbers of the FF red sub and the true value of the FF red sub as a means to align yourself against me isn’t healthy for you, for me and the community at large.


If you had reached out to me and asked for an apology like a normal person, I would’ve given you one there and then. There’s no shame in admitting I was wrong, quite the opposite actually. VRF/TRF are all platforms for learning, and discussion. If my call was wrong, I learn from it, and if it was right, we learn from it. It then becomes knowledge that would aid me and/or you in the future. Since this was my fault, my sincerest apologies for the mistake made at your expense and I hope your sale went well.


As for your 6538, I’ve no qualms with it. However, I’ve got qualms about you asking me to collect stamps instead.


I hope with this chapter now behind us, we can move the discussion back towards an educated debate of the true value of FF red subs vs MF red subs.

are you kidding me? you think I was distorting the truth about production numbers just to be against you? with your 60+ posts before you joined this thread and have been a member for all of 2 years makes me think you are more of a troll than anything else.. I can tell you this much, I may be a lot of things but one thing I know for sure I'm not is a manipulator.

I been a member here for over a decade and would like to think more of my posts have had a lot more meaning than your 60 posts before this thread.

If you think its ok to insult me then to apologize all within the same paragraph makes us cool, you're wrong.

Just your way of getting the last word in.

You started this thread wrong from the beginning. Calling another member a rookie is just flat out rude. If you have nothing nice to say than to just join a thread to put down another member, that's called being a troll, That also raised a flag and it made me remember what kind of person you are, so it's only fair that you deserved my comment, based on what you did to me on VRF. It ended there and the rest was for honest debate about reds..

Bragging about all your watches is in very poor taste.. Acting like a know it all, twisting every word that I was saying all for the sake of honest discussion that you turned into made up personal attacks.

You accused me of purposely trying to drive prices down of meters first subs because you think i'm trying to sell a slew of red ft first subs, then you accuse me of using all of that debating as a form of personal attacks against you. You're nothing short of a conspiracy theorist and a know it all..

I was actually trying to have an honest conversation with an irrational person, being you.

You are not an expert, you put your foot in your mouth more times than I can count. Your opinions are not valued and the best you can do is lie and attack a particular watch from my collection?

So with all that being said, I take it back, you shouldn't collect stamps, I think you should collect Gum wrappers instead.

[swish77]

Well, this thread certainly took an interesting turn.

Getting back to the main topic, I think we can all agree that dealers/sellers of meters-first Subs (red 1680s and 5512/5513s) certainly ask more money than similar condition feet-first models. However, it's up to individual buyers to determine whether meters-first Subs are worth the extra money. For me, and apparently others, they're not; for some hobbyists/collectors, that little detail is worth paying more for, which is fine too, of course.

Now I need a hug.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, this thread certainly took an interesting turn.

Getting back to the main topic, I think we can all agree that dealers/sellers of meters-first Subs (red 1680s and 5512/5513s) certainly ask more money than similar condition feet-first models. However, it's up to individual buyers to determine whether meters-first Subs are worth the extra money. For me, and apparently others, they're not; for some hobbyists/collectors, that little detail is worth paying more for, which is fine too, of course.

Now I need a hug.

glad someone gets what I was trying to say.

hug? how about a big fat wet kiss?

[swish77]

Originally Posted by SubKing

glad someone gets what I was trying to say.

hug? how about a big fat wet kiss?

OK, but only if I get to wear your 6538 for a week!

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

OK, but only if I get to wear your 6538 for a week!

Are you sure you want to be seen with it? It does have a service dial.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by swish77

OK, but only if I get to wear your 6538 for a week!

I think you should let this rookie here hold on to it while you guys are out on the town. And I promise not to sell it....though, I can't imagine who'd want it with that awful dial...

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

Man I just noticed the bottom half of this post. And I feel slighted, and frankly maligned.


Yeah I’m the same Baron from VRF. However, I don’t recall my posts being taken down for wrongly calling out fakes. In fact I don’t have that good an eye or the gall to call out fakes. I merely call out non members who do not post proof of ownership or contravene with other rules about posting. Needless to say 1/10 of the people I call out are proven to be scammers and are subsequently banned from the site. I think that’s a pretty good statistic. Not sure if you know how a forum operates Sherlock. But in the real world, where most of us live, when the main post is deleted, my reply post calling out the main post is gone as well.



Stamps? I’m sorry, but I don’t find that interesting at all. I much prefer to collect paintings and cars in addition to watches. FYI, if I was a guy that had a sad looking big crown submariner as my display picture that has replacement parts, I wouldn’t dare call myself the Submariner King. LOL. Much less, be recommending people for a change of hobby.

So 9 times out of 10 You are wrong and that’s a GOOD statistic?

[Autavian]

Originally Posted by roh123

Each to their own. In my opinion the meters first red subs will fetch a much higher price as they are much, much more collectible. For less than perfect condition I can imagine the spread is smaller as there aren’t buyers around that would value meters first higher than a similar feet first.

We don’t need to agree on this. I will just congratulate whoever finds a perfect meters first for the same price as a later version.

I agree with you here 100%

True vintage geeks, were looking for a nice meters first red sub, mk 1 mf preferred always. Of course as with everything in our hobby, comes the question of price.

FF 1680 red subs will always come second to a mf and priced will reflect the diff. Ff will never catch up to the mf, same goes with 5513s imho.

[themaninblack]

Not sure where this thread is going. I do like my reds though, any which way!

[springer]

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

Even for a Mk5? I didn't know they were still producing them in the mid to late '70s.

I've had date stamped C&I USA rivet bracelets as late as 1979.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

So 9 times out of 10 You are wrong and that’s a GOOD statistic?

Man, you really need to learn how to read. I believe I said that 1/10 are discovered to be scammers, meaning they aren’t able to provide proof of ownership and eventually get banned. The other 9/10 eventually do provide some proof of ownership one way or another.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by scooba

To Clarify ,



Andrew Said mine has been lightly Detailed , But Thankyou for the kind words, I like it and think it’s a amazing set and 22,500 seams cheap now , The Case is very strong the case back did have engraving on it according to the Guarantee card but that has been polished to remove it .

Crown guards are still very strong. You’ve got a great piece!

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by autavian

i agree with you here 100%



true vintage geeks, were looking for a nice meters first red sub, mk 1 mf preferred always. Of course as with everything in our hobby, comes the question of price.



Ff 1680 red subs will always come second to a mf and priced will reflect the diff. Ff will never catch up to the mf, same goes with 5513s imho.

+1

[chows99]

With such strong prices of red subs, I will be happy to afford any model be it FF or MF as long as it's in good condition.

With prices going in such a trajectory very soon most vintage Rolex sport models will be out of reach for average income collectors. Abit sad truth be told.

[Styles Bitchley]

Originally Posted by springer

I've had date stamped C&I USA rivet bracelets as late as 1979.

I love how much I learn on this forum.


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[mattedialdoc]

Meters first anything is better. I love MF. So cool.


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[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Autavian

I agree with you here 100%

True vintage geeks, were looking for a nice meters first red sub, mk 1 mf preferred always. Of course as with everything in our hobby, comes the question of price.

FF 1680 red subs will always come second to a mf and priced will reflect the diff. Ff will never catch up to the mf, same goes with 5513s imho.

E. my brother,
you have to admit that the FF reds have narrowed the gap of price difference between MF and FF in recent years. So in other words, the FF has increased in price at a more exponential rate than the MF variants.

Which is why I had said it seems to be catching up. Certainly not even in terms of value, but also not as far apart in price as they were years ago from each other.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

E. my brother,
you have to admit that the FF reds have narrowed the gap of price difference between MF and FF in recent years. So in other words, the FF has increased in price at a more exponential rate than the MF variants.

Which is why I had said it seems to be catching up. Certainly not even in terms of value, but also not as far apart in price as they were years ago from each other.

Please share what you believe to be the price for a top condition watch only meters first red sub and a feet first. I am eager to see how you price them.

[themaninblack]

Originally Posted by SubKing

E. my brother,
you have to admit that the FF reds have narrowed the gap of price difference between MF and FF in recent years. So in other words, the FF has increased in price at a more exponential rate than the MF variants.

Which is why I had said it seems to be catching up. Certainly not even in terms of value, but also not as far apart in price as they were years ago from each other.

Can’t agree. I think meters first have forged ahead in my experience. YMMV.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by themaninblack

Can’t agree. I think meters first have forged ahead in my experience. YMMV.

30% premium in my opinion.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Please share what you believe to be the price for a top condition watch only meters first red sub and a feet first. I am eager to see how you price them.

It's hard to answer your question.. there are just too many factors and specifics. A price for an uncommon "perfect" or "Top" condition example doesn't come along every day. The price is relative. It's worth what ever someone is willing to pay for it, in that particular case. Some times a perfect example sells for way over market just because of it's uncommon nature. where else would you find one? so you have to pay to play in that case.

I just follow the trends and when I see very high priced examples of particular models, they tend to just sit and sit and sit on the market day after day, week after week until that one person comes along that personally wants that particular piece bad enough and they pull the trigger. But that's a case by case basis depending on the piece itself and certainly not market value.

These are all my opinions and certainly not fact as I never stated it to be fact, but there are new interested collectors growing daily that love vintage rolex. I feel majority of them aren't attracted to the premiums that MF examples demand.

I myself have been collecting for a long time and have even owned a couple MF examples in my day, but today with prices being where they are, I just cannot justify spending that much extra for a MF over a FT unless there is a tropical factor involved.

I feel and again this is my personal opinion, that the DRSD craze has toned down over the years, the attention as of late is a lot of red sub hype. I think I have seen similar with MF examples as well.

Lets face it, I for one don't have unlimited funds and its very hard to have this hobby today with prices being where they are. So instead of adding 3 to 4 watches per year to my collection, I'm lucky if I get 1 worthy example to add that's within reason.

The piece on HQ, who knows when it will sell and what the actual selling price would be. That's between jacek and the buyer, we can only speculate.

[cajunboy]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

30% premium in my opinion.

Agreed! Meter first will always be more value over feet first. Kinda like 1974 red sub over white sub.

[redordead]

Im trying to buy both, and for same condition would prob pay 20% over for MF

[swish77]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

Meters first anything is better. I love MF. So cool.


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I can see why Yanks would feel this way, but you need to remember that us Europeans (I'm a Scotsman living in the NYC area) find references to meters to be insignificant and commonplace. I don't find meters-first to be cooler at all. To each their own, of course!

Originally Posted by cajunboy

Agreed! Meter first will always be more value over feet first. Kinda like 1974 red sub over white sub.

A red vs. white Sub is a different discussion altogether. A line of a red text on a dial actually adds something visually interesting. The order of a depth rating does not.

Originally Posted by Autavian

True vintage geeks, were looking for a nice meters first red sub, mk 1 mf preferred always.

I consider myself a "true vintage geek," and have been called one often, but I have never pursued a watch purely based on the order of the depth rating. My mantra is "condition, condition, condition," and then, can I afford it. If it happens to be an MF, great. But if it's a FF, that's the one I'll buy.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by redordead

Im trying to buy both, and for same condition would prob pay 20% over for MF

+1 hope you get it my friend.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

+1 hope you get it my friend.

@SgWatchBaron I just checked out your IG and Your collection is incredible