Experts chime in on my 1680

[J!m]

OK Guys.

I recently bought this 1680 from Bob's. I imagine several of you have seen it posted here, as well as over there if you were looking for one.

The case is 'weak' and it has a slew of service parts (dial, hands, insert, crown & tube). Bracelet (93150) from 1999. I have already collected a few replacements to get it back to "as-delivered". BUT, it is (in my opinion) a late Mark VI red sub. At this price point, it was/is my only chance to get a red sub for about half market value (even with this weak case). I justified the purchase by valuing the collective parts and compared to purchase price. Even if it is not the best "investment" piece, I am not losing any money on it.

My birthday watch would be a III.69 version, but that is too far out of reach for me.

This brings me to my questions:

This is a 3973xxx serial

• What is the year? I think 1973 but the serial data I have is not that precise. Maybe others within a similar range (with papers) can help pin point it for me.
• What insert should be on this watch? (anyone have one?) I think by this tie the "fat font" inserts were all used up but I'm not sure (and why I'm asking)
• Anyone with experience laser cladding a case and having someone like ABC reshape it like new again? Since the case is so far polished, I feel there is not much to lose there.
• What original box/booklets would be correct? I know I can't "wear the box", but I want to make the "set" as complete as possible for me, which is the reason we buy these crusty old watches anyway, right?

Note this is a long term project, and many will say "just save for a better one" but I didn't do that...

Anyway, input (positive and negative) appreciated.

[jdmi32]

What is the year? I think 1973 but the serial data I have is not that precise. Maybe others within a similar range (with papers) can help pin point it for me.

1973 sounds about right to me.

What insert should be on this watch? (anyone have one?) I think by this tie the "fat font" inserts were all used up but I'm not sure (and why I'm asking)

MK 3 inserts were still being used at this time and would be correct for your watch.

Anyone with experience laser cladding a case and having someone like ABC reshape it like new again? Since the case is so far polished, I feel there is not much to lose there.

ABC states that they cannot/will not build up thin lugs. I think their laser welding is limited to repairing dings and gouges but you can contact them to find out for sure.

What original box/booklets would be correct? I know I can't "wear the box", but I want to make the "set" as complete as possible for me, which is the reason we buy these crusty old watches anyway, right?

Hopefully Adam or Nikos or JP will chime in on this one.

Another possibility with this watch is to just wear it and enjoy it for what it is - a Sub that has evidently led an active life and even though it's not all period correct, it's still a genuine Rolex.

[Frogman4me]

I would say it's more likely a 1974 and with a 3.97 serial it could have been a MKVI red dial or an MKI white dial from the factory. The correct insert for this case is a MKIII fat font insert. The case was extremely polished and a poor job overall, sorry to say. I would call ABC and ask what they could do.

[kakadu]

Agree with 1974.......tbh from the pictures cant tell if polished badly or well....
am afraid you might be heading into a money pit on this.....why not just wear and enjoy it and put the money saved towards your next! sorry if negative but have been there and got the very expensive t-shirt.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

I would say it's more likely a 1974 and with a 3.97 serial it could have been a MKVI red dial or an MKI white dial from the factory. The correct insert for this case is a MKIII fat font insert. The case was extremely polished and a poor job overall, sorry to say. I would call ABC and ask what they could do.

I agree with David. While "it could have been" a red Sub dial in that range, it more than likely was a white-lettered mark I dial.

[jdog111578]

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on "all original" vs period correct etc. Its like a really nice muscle car. You could have a very nice fully restored GTO or a all original from factory never touched. Does the latter, just like with watches, deserve a higher premium? I think so. Either way, you're going to have one kick@ss car to drive.

Do what YOU feel is going to be beneficial to you. Use the parts we talked about to replace the service ones on there and if THAT dial comes along at a fair price, you can take it from there. Was a nice watch to see in the flesh and certainly tells a story whether people view it as good or bad. At the end of the day, its on YOUR wrist and YOU need to be happy with it. Wear it well my friend!

[J!m]

Originally Posted by jdmi32

1973 sounds about right to me.

MK 3 inserts were still being used at this time and would be correct for your watch.

ABC states that they cannot/will not build up thin lugs. I think their laser welding is limited to repairing dings and gouges but you can contact them to find out for sure.

I would not have ABC build them up; only reshape and polish after build up. The company I work for sells laser cladding equipment and I could get it done quite inexpensively. I would not let my co-workers attempt to reshape the case correctly however...

Originally Posted by jdmi32

Hopefully Adam or Nikos or JP will chime in on this one.

Another possibility with this watch is to just wear it and enjoy it for what it is - a Sub that has evidently led an active life and even though it's not all period correct, it's still a genuine Rolex.

Oh, I do and will wear it!

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

I would say it's more likely a 1974 and with a 3.97 serial it could have been a MKVI red dial or an MKI white dial from the factory.

This is why I wanted some input on pinpointing the serial to known red/white examples. The data in this range is very spotty at best.

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

The correct insert for this case is a MKIII fat font insert. The case was extremely polished and a poor job overall, sorry to say. I would call ABC and ask what they could do.

As I said above, I would not have ABC build it up, only shape and polish after build up (or someone else highly regarded).

Originally Posted by kakadu

Agree with 1974.......tbh from the pictures cant tell if polished badly or well....
am afraid you might be heading into a money pit on this.....why not just wear and enjoy it and put the money saved towards your next! sorry if negative but have been there and got the very expensive t-shirt.

No negativity received! I do wear and enjoy it. But I like to tinker anyway, have some of the parts already, and what the heck right?

Originally Posted by springer

I agree with David. While "it could have been" a red Sub dial in that range, it more than likely was a white-lettered mark I dial.

I appreciate that. Do you have more accurate serial data to reinforce that theory? The dial on it is clearly a service dial...

Originally Posted by jdog111578

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on "all original" vs period correct etc. Its like a really nice muscle car. You could have a very nice fully restored GTO or a all original from factory never touched. Does the latter, just like with watches, deserve a higher premium? I think so. Either way, you're going to have one kick@ss car to drive.

Well, in the bicycle collecting world, there's mint, restored, and survivor. You can get more for a grubby survivor than a mint restored example in some cases. I guess this would classify as a restoration...

Originally Posted by jdog111578

Do what YOU feel is going to be beneficial to you. Use the parts we talked about to replace the service ones on there and if THAT dial comes along at a fair price, you can take it from there. Was a nice watch to see in the flesh and certainly tells a story whether people view it as good or bad. At the end of the day, its on YOUR wrist and YOU need to be happy with it. Wear it well my friend!

Well of course dude! I'm enjoying it immensely and nearly daily (the Tudor is hard to resist sometimes) but lets put our collective heads together and see how nice we can make this "red-dialed step-child"

[J!m]

Any further comments? Particularly on the correct box and booklets for this era. There are a lot of options and I don't know what is correct.

I was also searching for an insert on our for sale section and none listed right now.

Thanks again!

[Wing Zero]

Insert:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...scarred+insert..
http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...+%2AReduced%2A

box and papers = google =
https://www.google.com/search?q=role...FYoaPgodxr8N1g

[swish77]

Originally Posted by J!m

Any further comments? Particularly on the correct box and booklets for this era. There are a lot of options and I don't know what is correct.

I was also searching for an insert on our for sale section and none listed right now.

Thanks again!

See below for my former red 1680 set, 2.9 million serial. The set that would've come with your watch would have been very similar to this, if not the same. Keep in mind that the boxes, manuals, goodies, etc ... were put together by ADs, not Rolex themselves, so there were/are variations.

[Nobody.Move]

Your serial number could even land you in1975 as the production year. So, if I'm betting, I'm going all in with a white-lettering 1680, circa 1974-75.

[J!m]

Originally Posted by swish77

See below for my former red 1680 set, 2.9 million serial. The set that would've come with your watch would have been very similar to this, if not the same. Keep in mind that the boxes, manuals, goodies, etc ... were put together by ADs, not Rolex themselves, so there were/are variations.

That's great thank you!

Also, I did not know the sets were assembled by the dealers. I assumed they were shipped out if Switzerland all together.

[J!m]

Originally Posted by Nobody.Move

Your serial number could even land you in1975 as the production year. So, if I'm betting, I'm going all in with a white-lettering 1680, circa 1974-75.

I suppose that is possible. It seems rather soon after sale (if made in 75 probably sold in 76) to need an early service dial... When did they stop issuing these dials?

Actually if we have any white subs with earlier serials that would make it definate. Anyone have an earlier serial that is white dial?

[springer]

Originally Posted by J!m

I suppose that is possible. It seems rather soon after sale (if made in 75 probably sold in 76) to need an early service dial... When did they stop issuing these dials?

Actually if we have any white subs with earlier serials that would make it definate. Anyone have an earlier serial that is white dial?

I have seen several white-lettered dials in the high 3 million serial range with the Mark I dial. I've owned one. Red Subs in that range are not that common.

[J!m]

I understand this could go either way.

That is why I'm reaching out for known white dial serial numbers to put a finer point on this.

There is also a generally accepted 18- month gap between the 3.9 and 4.0m serial range, which does not follow with production volumes up to that point. This was a strange time frame.

It is a mystery I am trying to solve.

It may in fact be a white sub, which is perfectly fine with me; however before I invest in a dial, knowing that it should be a Mk I white or a Mk VI red is a rather important detail. Both dials are not terribly common. One thing for sure- the dial on it now is not what was delivered from Rolex.

Do you have the first four digits of that known white sub serial? Or, can you confirm if yours was before or after my serial number? That would be really helpful information.

Otherwise we are all just speculating here, because it is widely accepted that in the 3.9m range both white and red dials were issued.


Thanks!

[springer]

Originally Posted by J!m

I understand this could go either way.

That is why I'm reaching out for known white dial serial numbers to put a finer point on this.

There is also a generally accepted 18- month gap between the 3.9 and 4.0m serial range, which does not follow with production volumes up to that point. This was a strange time frame.

It is a mystery I am trying to solve.

It may in fact be a white sub, which is perfectly fine with me; however before I invest in a dial, knowing that it should be a Mk I white or a Mk VI red is a rather important detail. Both dials are not terribly common. One thing for sure- the dial on it now is not what was delivered from Rolex.

Do you have the first four digits of that known white sub serial? Or, can you confirm if yours was before or after my serial number? That would be really helpful information.

Otherwise we are all just speculating here, because it is widely accepted that in the 3.9m range both white and red dials were issued.


Thanks!

3.86 million, and another that had a number of 3.93 million. I am not speculating, it is based on my experience.

[J!m]

Excellent! Well that is the sort of conclusive data I need. Thank you very much Springer.

So this is a Mark I white dial sub. No shame in that!

On the hunt for the dial!

[Nobody.Move]

@ springer
re: 3.86 million, and another that had a number of 3.93 million. I am not speculating, it is based on my experience.

Wow, John, I wasn't aware that red 1680s could have that high of 3 mil. serial #. You're always a wealth of information!

[springer]

Originally Posted by Nobody.Move

@ springer
re: 3.86 million, and another that had a number of 3.93 million. I am not speculating, it is based on my experience.

Wow, John, I wasn't aware that red 1680s could have that high of 3 mil. serial #. You're always a wealth of information!

I wasn't referring to red Subs.

[Nobody.Move]

@springer
re: "I wasn't referring to red Subs."

Ah, my fault, I was probably reading this thread too quickly. So, based on what you know, what's the highest serial number range for red Subs? 3.7, 3.8???

[2JHead]

Originally Posted by J!m

Excellent! Well that is the sort of conclusive data I need. Thank you very much Springer.

So this is a Mark I white dial sub. No shame in that!

On the hunt for the dial!

How about keeping the dial, color match the service hands, focus on getting the case welded up (controversial but something needs to be done with that case and I believe ok if disclosed in future sales adds) and reshaped and finally treat yourself to a fat font insert if it all turns out well?

Just an alternative apporach

[J!m]

I've been thinking about this- there are known 3.9m serial red subs. Springer has seen high 3.9's and even 3.8's that are white. So there is clear overlap.

Any 3.9m red sub owners care to chime in with their hard data (serials)? Although chances are high this was/is a white sub, there seems to be a similar chance it could still be red.

If so, I guess whichever dial comes up first will be the right one...

Oh, and further, would it be exclusively a Mk I white dial? Like the Mk VI red and Mk I white overlap, would it be possible this could be a Mk II white dial for example? (although the Mk I is a nicer looking dial in my opinion)?

[Paul]

An interesting project you have there Jim - good on you.


Don't get too excited folks but if it's any interest at all, I have a red Sub dial available - see pic.
It is what it is , obviously flawed and certainly needs Michael Young to work his magic.
It could help Jim or someone else on a budget get a splash of red under their 1680 dial.


Anyways, just letting folks know it's available. I don't know where my dial sits on the red Sub time-line.
If someone out there knows please tell me

[cruvon]

just for reference, my mk6 is a 381x red dial. Think mine has a MK3 insert but not sure (David-Frogman4me or someone else , can you confirm my insert version please?). If yours is tending towards being a Mk1 white dial, guess would be easier and more cost effective to source then a red dial? Do some more snooping for parts et al and am sure you will enjoy your watch even more, the hunt is always exciting!

Some old pics
http://www.rolexforums.com/attachmen...1&d=1310703678

http://www.rolexforums.com/attachmen...1&d=1310703678

[J!m]

Originally Posted by Paul

An interesting project you have there Jim - good on you.


Don't get too excited folks but if it's any interest at all, I have a red Sub dial available - see pic.
It is what it is , obviously flawed and certainly needs Michael Young to work his magic.
It could help Jim or someone else on a budget get a splash of red under their 1680 dial.


Anyways, just letting folks know it's available. I don't know where my dial sits on the red Sub time-line.
If someone out there knows please tell me

That's an earlier dial than I would need (if I went red).

Looks like it's seen some action!

[J!m]

Originally Posted by cruvon

just for reference, my mk6 is a 381x red dial. Think mine has a MK3 insert but not sure (David-Frogman4me or someone else , can you confirm my insert version please?). If yours is tending towards being a Mk1 white dial, guess would be easier and more cost effective to source then a red dial? Do some more snooping for parts et al and am sure you will enjoy your watch even more, the hunt is always exciting!

Some old pics
http://www.rolexforums.com/attachmen...1&d=1310703678

http://www.rolexforums.com/attachmen...1&d=1310703678

This and Springer's info indicates the overlap goes back to 3.8m and not just the generally accepted 3.9m serial range for red/white overlap.

I'm still curious to get other 3.9m red sub owners to show their dials and list the first four digits of their serial.

As a side note, are there any known instances of early 4.0m serials with red dials (from Rolex)? As far as I know, 4.0 was the "hard stop" on red dials.

Learning a lot guys! Thanks!

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by J!m

This and Springer's info indicates the overlap goes back to 3.8m and not just the generally accepted 3.9m serial range for red/white overlap.

I'm still curious to get other 3.9m red sub owners to show their dials and list the first four digits of their serial.

As a side note, are there any known instances of early 4.0m serials with red dials (from Rolex)? As far as I know, 4.0 was the "hard stop" on red dials.

Learning a lot guys! Thanks!

Here's 2 old threads showing red sub serials that could be of help



https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...225667&page=11
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=225667


PS: Came across a 3.9X with a MK6 red dial in that thread so does point to an overlap as Springer and David stated

[J!m]

I pulled this off another thread from ianmcg (I hope you don't mind the repost!)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mk VI #399xxxx

Overpaid for it I'm sure but the condition made it worth it to me.





Ian

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Assuming all is right, and this particular watch looks like it has not been meddled with much to me, shows 3.99m serial with a Mk. I red dial. Mine is 3.97m but the point is with a 3.83 white and a 3.99 red there is no dispute there was overlap, and it is over a fairly large range. I understand the serial range is not all inclusive for any particular model (so there are not 160,000 subs which could be either red or white) but a fair whack of them could go either way clearly.

The digging continues...

[TimeToGo]

Interesting thread.

You probably meant to say Mk-VI..

I am trying to figure out if you are trying to justify putting on a red dial on your sub.. Obviously toward the end of any model (1680 red, 16750 matte, 16800 matte, etc.) there is going to be some overlap between the 1680 white, and white gold surrounds.

Red or White.. Just pop one in there and others may try to justify your intention as well.

Heck, you can put a red dial on a 4.5 mil... Be the first on the block to own one..

[Brunik]

We all overpaid our red when we get them... But now... Few years later... Was cheap!



My 1680 mark iv 1969!

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