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Old 21 July 2018, 05:37 PM   #31
rootbeer7
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I can’t believe I missed this from te beginnning. OP well done for bringing your query here and Haywood what an amazing offer. Very much looking forward to hearing the result. If the watch is returned, I may be tempted to replace the case with a service one. I’m guessing OP paid a relatively small sum for the watch. Subscribed.
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Old 21 July 2018, 05:45 PM   #32
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Hi Johnny,

If you can get to the bottom of this situation then good on you.

You will loose nothing in the outcome.

There has been some excellent suggestions and offers on this thread.
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Old 21 July 2018, 06:20 PM   #33
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Old 22 July 2018, 09:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Onikage View Post
Interesting that someone would go to the trouble to re-engrave an anonymous serial. No way that would get past a reputable seller.. Or anyone but the most shortsighted of newbs.
All will be revealed in the goodness of time dear fellow
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Old 22 July 2018, 11:23 PM   #35
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Quick update watch has been looked at and all relevant agencies have been sent the information just waiting far the results,


That was quick - and cryptic, too. What “agencies” do you mean?



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Old 22 July 2018, 11:28 PM   #36
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Did you manage to track down an identifying number on it? Would Rolex UK be able to tell you if it was stolen just by giving them the number?


Having dealt with Rolex on stolen watches, I can assure you the only things they’ll say is “Send us the watch”.

They will register a watch as stolen once you share the Police Report info. And they will remove it from the database once you recover it. But they won’t confirm anything by simply sending in the serial number.

Watchmakers with a Registered parts account don’t even have access to that data when they take in a Rolex for servicing.


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Old 23 July 2018, 12:28 AM   #37
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So if the watch goes to Rolex and for example, they confirm it was registered as being stolen, they will not return the watch. The OP has now lost out ££££'s?

This should be returned to the 'private source' I think, and he/she should be sued if they decline to entertain you.
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Old 23 July 2018, 01:08 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesharkfactor View Post
So if the watch goes to Rolex and for example, they confirm it was registered as being stolen, they will not return the watch. The OP has now lost out ££££'s?

This should be returned to the 'private source' I think, and he/she should be sued if they decline to entertain you.

Yes - unfortunately Rolex doesn’t confirm anything without the watch in hand. I wish this would change to clean up the secondary market. A public clearinghouse would be helpful.

If the new information from Hayward Milton is shared with the private seller, he or she might want to step up and buyback the watch.

The logic to do that is the OP has the right to return the watch to Rolex. Rolex will (if it was reported stolen) send it to the authorities in the jurisdiction where the theft occurred. Once that happens, the OP will be contacted to make a statement - including the private seller’s info. Authorities will then look to seller for an explanation - including who sold it to him. Massive risk for the private seller if the story ends there - theft by receiving is one risk.



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Old 24 July 2018, 12:31 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77T View Post
Having dealt with Rolex on stolen watches, I can assure you the only things they’ll say is “Send us the watch”.

They will register a watch as stolen once you share the Police Report info. And they will remove it from the database once you recover it. But they won’t confirm anything by simply sending in the serial number.

Watchmakers with a Registered parts account don’t even have access to that data when they take in a Rolex for servicing.


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What you say may be correct in your Rolex territory, but is not always the case worldwide.

H
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Old 24 July 2018, 12:35 AM   #40
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What you say may be correct in your Rolex territory, but is not always the case worldwide.



H


I do agree that my experience is only with Rolex USA.

Is it your opinion, or your experience, that other Rolex Regions allow callers to check if the serial number belongs to a stolen watch?


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Old 24 July 2018, 12:44 AM   #41
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With apologies for the delay, I have now inspected the OP's watch and with his permission post publicly.

It is a genuine Rolex 16710 GMT-Master II, of which I don't think there was ever any doubt.

There are no service marks inside the case-back. This was disappointing, as one would have allowed it to be connected to a case number.

I have recorded and photographed the unique number of the 3185 calibre movement. This will shortly be with the right person at Rolex and with luck it may be tied to a case number, from which we might proceed in another direction.

However, let us return to the crudely engraved number:



Can we be certain that it is not the same as the original number underneath, simply re-engraved by the clumsy hand of someone who did not realise the problems they would cause? Original numbers can be worn or damaged and I have seen instances where a well-intentioned owner has thought "clarifying" the number helpful.

Consider the same image, with some additions in green from me:



This phenomenon continues across the entire number. It is quite conceivable from the remnants of original engraving that the only thing the clumsy hand hides is, in fact, the same number.

Of course, it remains equally possible that a baddy was smart enough to change just one or two digits slightly.

I did check to see that a K8xxxxx case number was correct for a 16710 with pin-holes in the lugs, rather than a 16710 T with solid lugs. Indeed it is, the latter not appearing well into Y-series watches according to my records.

Thus far I have submitted the case number we have to both the UK Safergems / Checkmend Watch Register (connected to all UK police forces) and the Art Loss Register's Watch Register, without suffering a "hit." If contact with Rolex suggests a different case number then I will submit a new enquiry.

Haywood
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Old 24 July 2018, 12:58 AM   #42
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Thanks for that excellent report. I do hope for the OP that the double engraving was done with innocent intentions by a previous owner.

Moving forward, if the s/n is legit, the OP now has a lifetime keeper!


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Old 24 July 2018, 01:34 AM   #43
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Doctored gmt

Like other said it’s probably stolen.
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Old 24 July 2018, 01:39 AM   #44
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Quote:
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It’s worthless. Like other said it’s probably stolen.
Other explanations may apply and the point of the thread has largely been about investigating, proving and disproving the possibilities. Careful examination of the watch and involvement of third parties as well as Rolex, with luck, have followed and at no cost to the OP.

If you had posted this single, conclusive line earlier, it would have saved all the long-winded, considered efforts of others.
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Old 24 July 2018, 01:49 AM   #45
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Doctored gmt

OP, I do hope you get your money back in the end. And a full reward given to you from the original owner. Good luck.
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Old 24 July 2018, 03:03 AM   #46
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I do not want to detract from the gravity of this if indeed stolen, but the photos Mr. H. Milton posted do indeed seem like this may have been doctored to accentuate the serial number as the doctoring does not seem to be altering numbers but almost going over them. Strange to say the least, maybe this will have a bizarre and happy ending.
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Old 24 July 2018, 03:07 AM   #47
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What an interesting story. Can wait to hear the final outcome.
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Old 24 July 2018, 05:07 AM   #48
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What ever the outcome for the watch I personally will do the right thing if it does come back clean I may give it a new lease of life and have refurbished if not then there will be a seller who will be answering questions to the police.
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Old 25 July 2018, 12:54 AM   #49
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I have been able to find out that the unique movement number is indeed associated with a specific Rolex 16710, having case number K8918xx (the last two numbers known to us both but disguised here by agreement with the OP).

This is not quite the same as the number ostensibly borne by the watch now.

It is pleasing to confirm that our reading of remnants of the original numbers was on the right track, but you can perhaps guess why the remaining two digits were not accurately over-written.

The watch correctly associated with the movement number was reported LOST in 2006....but then apparently "removed from the stolen register" subsequently.

Now in possession of the original, correct case number I also put this through both the Safergems / Checkmend Watch Register and that of the Art Loss Register, both of which came back "clear."

While it appears that the watch did have a spell on the wrong side of the tracks in its early life, it also appears that this was resolved and that no third party may have any outstanding claim upon title to the watch today.

As I wrote this morning to the OP : "With luck, and despite a shaky episode in its life, you may be able to keep this watch. I would consider that wonderfully just in light of your following the correct course of action throughout. You have been very lucky in a number of ways that we have reached even this stage, which would have been impossible for almost all others. Fingers crossed!"

Karma for him, one might hope.

Haywood

Addendum #1 : the OP has always been most willing for me to share these reports with the forum

Addendum #2 : In response to Paul (77T), the experience differs from one Rolex territory to another. Nowhere does access seem open or easy and I had to ask a rare favour to achieve progress here. I believe that main agents in the UK, however, are able to check records simply by making contact rather than having physically to submit a watch.
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Old 25 July 2018, 01:50 AM   #50
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That's a terrific outcome, well done. What would you suggest to be the best way forward now for the watch - can a certificate of legality of sorts be obtained for example and what best to do with the actual numbers on the case?
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Old 25 July 2018, 02:03 AM   #51
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I would like to publicly thank Haywood for everything he has done and may I add for no payment I have been in constant communication via email and was kept updated at all times an absolute gentleman,what I would like to do is send the watch to be refurbished at Rolex depending on price I know it will not be cheap but at least it will come back with papers and a new number then I could call it mine
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Old 25 July 2018, 03:37 AM   #52
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..but at least it will come back with papers and a new number then I could call it mine
Brilliant, this is the best possible outcome.
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Old 25 July 2018, 04:02 AM   #53
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Haywood Milton, I don't know you, but you seem like a stand-up guy to have gotten involved and helped the OP through this issue.

And, the OP is a heck of a guy too for being so honest. Me thinks that not many people would have done what he did to obtain peace of mind.

I've got to say that I'm really impressed.
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Old 25 July 2018, 06:58 AM   #54
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My, you have been busy this week H!
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Old 25 July 2018, 07:56 PM   #55
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Quote:
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I would like to publicly thank Haywood for everything he has done and may I add for no payment I have been in constant communication via email and was kept updated at all times an absolute gentleman,what I would like to do is send the watch to be refurbished at Rolex depending on price I know it will not be cheap but at least it will come back with papers and a new number then I could call it mine
You're welcome

A decade or more ago, Rolex UK might have agreed to re-apply the original number if known or, if any doubt existed, they would apply a curious number in the format "BEX140299" - BEX denoting their old Bexley service centre and the six numerals representing the date the new number was applied. I have seen perhaps three of these in twenty years.

I cannot say what they would do with this watch now, but would suggest sending it directly to them rather than through a main agent. Knowing how the system works, being able to send such items under my jeweller's insurance and as we have come this far together, I would be willing to send the watch to them at West Malling for you and to deal with the correspondence, which I hope would be most likely to realise best possible success. If they agree to proceed, they would on completion invoice one of my companies but I would be happy to pass this on at cost plus postage.

We can hope that with full disclosure and clear, honest intent you will be rewarded by their support.

Haywood
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Old 25 July 2018, 09:01 PM   #56
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Brilliant outcome.
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Old 25 July 2018, 09:08 PM   #57
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I’m speechless and humbled by haywoods generosity and would like to take up his offer wow.
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Old 25 July 2018, 09:48 PM   #58
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Haywood Milton, first class gentleman.
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Old 25 July 2018, 10:56 PM   #59
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This gets my vote for thread of the year!
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Old 26 July 2018, 02:25 AM   #60
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Always love a happy ending. :))
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