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Old 4 April 2020, 02:21 AM   #4981
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I have the same approach. I'll be turning 40 this year and am in good health, also an ex-marathoner so I'm in good shape. I'll risk the 1% chance of dying to help reduce the effects of economic collapse that will come if we continue to quarantine ourselves.
Likewise, despite the fact I retired (very early) last year. Iíd happily take my chances for the future of my kids etc. Of course, Iíd be careful. Iíd wear a mask. I may not visit so many restaurants. But, I would spend money in other shops. Iíd help keeping the economy ticking on. This stasis will end up being very destructive. But, it will take a politician with guts to make the first move ..
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:24 AM   #4982
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Originally Posted by Letsgodiving View Post
On a positive note a 104 year old WWII veteran survives COVID-19.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/1...ates-birthday/
There was a centarian patient in Italy who recovered who also had the Spanish flu way back when.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:34 AM   #4983
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Would you still expect care to be provided by the health care system if you or your family members you were in contact with fell ill? Would you sign a contract that you will forego any healthcare needs that arise for you or family members until you could be confirmed COVID-19 negative and could be cared for without risk to your providers? What if you end up having a mild course of the disease and infect others at your workplace who were pressured to come back if restrictions were eased?

I don't mean to single you out It's just that we all need to think of the ramifications of our actions, and your post is a good jumping off point.
Yes, I would, as the odds are in my favor. Now if children were dying that would change my decision. It's been stated here numerous times that only way the virus goes away is herd immunity, vaccine or total isolation(not feasible).

You also have to think in an economic collapse, healthcare will be affected as well. What if hospitals aren't paid by millions of the unemployed, uninsured patients? How will they pay their Dr's and Nurses?

I truly appreciate what the healthcare workers are doing and I have empathy for them. This situation is damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm just on one side of the fence.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:38 AM   #4984
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I wonder if it would ever get to a point where health insurance companies ( along with Medicare) would just deny coverage of COVID-19 treatment(s) due to people not taking due care in avoiding contracting it? It would essentially be, "if you don't care, we don't care"...DENIED

If they did, I bet a lot of tunes would change...
That's a double edged sword and would be difficult to fairly enforce. I would be leery to give this kind of power to insurance companies. They already shaft enough patients who need care that is medically indicated in the name of the almighty dollar, and I'm concerned they could use that power to great harm.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:45 AM   #4985
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So for some of you guys that questioned why I donít trust the mainstream media especially the New York Times or the Washington Post I give you this article below. I find it interesting nobody has posted it here yet. So you have these people at universities that come up with the modeling and then they give it to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. They then in turn report to the president and the vice president as well as his Coronavirus task force. They then make their decisions based upon that. Well as you are remember and youíre welcome to look back at the beginning of this thread they were predicting the possibility of 3.5 million dead Americans from this pandemic. Then they reduced it down several times to now we are at 100,000 to 240,000 as of this past Wednesday if I recall. Now the same people that create the models and report to our two good doctors have under the table sleazed their way to the Washington post to report that the White House not the doctors themselves are way off on the current predictions of 100,000 to 240,000 deaths. Note, and this is very typical of the Washington post, that the people telling the paper about this are unnamed sources. Thereís a big surprise. Iím not a conspiracy theorist people but something doesnít smell right here. The fact that the Washington post would slam the White House doesnít surprise me but look at how they are delivering this information now. There is no way around this but something is wrong.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex...te/ar-BB1263eT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...aths-estimate/
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:47 AM   #4986
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Yes, I would, as the odds are in my favor. Now if children were dying that would change my decision. It's been stated here numerous times that only way the virus goes away is herd immunity, vaccine or total isolation(not feasible).

You also have to think in an economic collapse, healthcare will be affected as well. What if hospitals aren't paid by millions of the unemployed, uninsured patients? How will they pay their Dr's and Nurses?

I truly appreciate what the healthcare workers are doing and I have empathy for them. This situation is damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm just on one side of the fence.
I completely see both sides of the coin, as do many medical providers. If your practice relied on outpatient medical/surgical procedures, you are now toast. Practices all across the country are either severely contracting or shuttering now. The kick in the nuts is that as they suffer economic calamity, they are being asked to help out on the front lines in hot spots with insufficient support in a high risk environment.

I still strongly feel that if we stop with half measures and shut down as a nation for 2 weeks, we can get this under control, catch our breath, and begin getting people back to work. But this means complete cessation of travel, limiting human interaction to a minimum, and the ability to roll out massive testing to catch any new outbreaks early and stamp them out. And we need to be reminded that the deaths will continue to rise during that time period, but will level and then decline.

That said, this feels like the approach to US policy in the Middle East over the last decades. There are many bad options, none of which are satisfying, pick your poison.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:48 AM   #4987
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You can't expect the health care professionals to risk their lives, exposed to massive viral loads on a daily basis, while people do whatever they want to and exacerbate the problem, rather than assist in resolving it.
This. Perhaps those choosing to return to normal activities despite the known risks should take an oath to not seek medical attention if they become ill. Iíd certainly resent risking my life intubating someone who chose to go the church, then out to dinner in a crowded restaurant followed by an NBA game during a pandemic.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:49 AM   #4988
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
So for some of you guys that questioned why I donít trust the mainstream media especially the New York Times or the Washington Post I give you this article below. I find it interesting nobody has posted it here yet. So you have these people at universities that come up with the modeling and then they give it to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. They then in turn report to the president and the vice president as well as his Coronavirus task force. They then make their decisions based upon that. Well as you are remember and youíre welcome to look back at the beginning of this thread they were predicting the possibility of 3.5 million dead Americans from this pandemic. Then they reduced it down several times to now we are at 100,000 to 240,000 as of this past Wednesday if I recall. Now the same people that create the models and report to our two good doctors have under the table sleazed their way to the Washington post to report that the White House not the doctors themselves are way off on the current predictions of 100,000 to 240,000 deaths. Note, and this is very typical of the Washington post, that the people telling the paper about this are unnamed sources. Thereís a big surprise. Iím not a conspiracy theorist people but something doesnít smell right here. The fact that the Washington post would slam the White House doesnít surprise me but look at how they are delivering this information now. There is no way around this but something is wrong.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex...te/ar-BB1263eT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...aths-estimate/
You are spot on.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:49 AM   #4989
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Yes, I would, as the odds are in my favor. Now if children were dying that would change my decision. It's been stated here numerous times that only way the virus goes away is herd immunity, vaccine or total isolation(not feasible).

You also have to think in an economic collapse, healthcare will be affected as well. What if hospitals aren't paid by millions of the unemployed, uninsured patients? How will they pay their Dr's and Nurses?

I truly appreciate what the healthcare workers are doing and I have empathy for them. This situation is damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm just on one side of the fence.
Just wondering if you are on your side of the fence because you are suffering financially?

If that is your motivation, and you are willing to sacrifice the old and/or already sick people (but not children), what would you say to those like myself who are in secure work and not financially impacted in any way but are older and asthmatic who might say that we are willing to sacrifice your finances in order to stay alive?
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:52 AM   #4990
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So for some of you guys that questioned why I donít trust the mainstream media especially the New York Times or the Washington Post I give you this article below. I find it interesting nobody has posted it here yet. So you have these people at universities that come up with the modeling and then they give it to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. They then in turn report to the president and the vice president as well as his Coronavirus task force. They then make their decisions based upon that. Well as you are remember and youíre welcome to look back at the beginning of this thread they were predicting the possibility of 3.5 million dead Americans from this pandemic. Then they reduced it down several times to now we are at 100,000 to 240,000 as of this past Wednesday if I recall. Now the same people that create the models and report to our two good doctors have under the table sleazed their way to the Washington post to report that the White House not the doctors themselves are way off on the current predictions of 100,000 to 240,000 deaths. Note, and this is very typical of the Washington post, that the people telling the paper about this are unnamed sources. Thereís a big surprise. Iím not a conspiracy theorist people but something doesnít smell right here. The fact that the Washington post would slam the White House doesnít surprise me but look at how they are delivering this information now. There is no way around this but something is wrong.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex...te/ar-BB1263eT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...aths-estimate/
Brett, nobody in their right mind who is currently working in or with the administration will go named on the record and speak out against the White House. We can't talk about why as that is probably treading too deep into political waters. Just look at the series of events over the past year and you'll have your answer.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:52 AM   #4991
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I completely see both sides of the coin, as do many medical providers. If your practice relied on outpatient medical/surgical procedures, you are now toast. Practices all across the country are either severely contracting or shuttering now. The kick in the nuts is that as they suffer economic calamity, they are being asked to help out on the front lines in hot spots with insufficient support in a high risk environment.

I still strongly feel that if we stop with half measures and shut down as a nation for 2 weeks, we can get this under control, catch our breath, and begin getting people back to work. But this means complete cessation of travel, limiting human interaction to a minimum, and the ability to roll out massive testing to catch any new outbreaks early and stamp them out. And we need to be reminded that the deaths will continue to rise during that time period, but will level and then decline.

That said, this feels like the approach to US policy in the Middle East over the last decades. There are many bad options, none of which are satisfying, pick your poison.
I agree with you and have no problem shutting down for 2 weeks. But after that deadline we have to get the economy rolling and go back to business as usual for the most part. If I have to wear a mask and wash hands every 30 minutes then so be it.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:54 AM   #4992
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On a less serious note, here is a better and more thorough explaination of the toilet paper shortage. Makes me thankful for all the TP I have used at Starbucks over the years.

https://marker.medium.com/what-every...e-c812e1358fe0

Stay safe.
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:57 AM   #4993
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I wonder if it would ever get to a point where health insurance companies ( along with Medicare) would just deny coverage of COVID-19 treatment(s) due to people not taking due care in avoiding contracting it? It would essentially be, "if you don't care, we don't care"...DENIED

If they did, I bet a lot of tunes would change...
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Old 4 April 2020, 02:59 AM   #4994
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Just wondering if you are on your side of the fence because you are suffering financially?

If that is your motivation, and you are willing to sacrifice the old and/or already sick people (but not children), what would you say to those like myself who are in secure work and not financially impacted in any way but are older and asthmatic who might say that we are willing to sacrifice your finances in order to stay alive?
Not suffering at all, my business distributes medical equipment, mostly hospital beds and mattresses. We are also considered essential so I've still been going to work everyday.

I tell my parents to stay home as much as possible. They are in their late 60's and no longer work.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:00 AM   #4995
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The virus will almost certainly still be present when we go back to work without a vaccine- which is one of the reasons I think we should go back now and save the economy.

I for one would carry on as normal (barring the fact many of the restaurants and bars will never re-open) and I think most of the population would, barring some people with health concerns and elderly.
We all want it to go back to normal. Nobody doesn't want that. But there is no way to do that right now with the number of infected people still out there who can spread this virus. I understand the fears about breaking the economy, but at a time like this I feel the bigger fear right now is breaking the healthcare system and breaking those people delivering care. We need to get to the bottom end of the curve before we open things up simply because the healthcare system is maxed out. If we increase the need for critical care by eliminating social distancing and by opening up non-essential businesses, we will absolutely break the system.

In fact, it's pretty much only holding on by a thread even right now. My daughter is a PA employed by a large hospital in Southeast Michigan north of Detroit. They are throwing anybody and everybody at this problem and barely keeping their heads above water. People think Dr.s and PAs are trained to handle this stuff because they went to a medical school or have clinical training. It's simply not true. For example, my daughter is a surgical PA. That's what she knows. Assisting in surgery for the removal of a gall bladder is nothing like running a floor full of COVID patients. But that's where she has been moved now. Elective surgery is over for now. If you have a hernia, then live with it because you're not getting it fixed right now. But show up with COVID-19, and you may have a surgical PA and an orthopedic surgeon MD making decisions about your care because they are now in charge...there's nobody else to do it.

If we choose to open it all up, we are choosing to throw even more gas on this fire that's burning in these hospitals. These people, like my kid, LITERALLY cannot take any more of this. She's given one N95 mask for the week. Yes...the week. (Thanks 3M for having your greedy distributors taking cash payments from other countries to prioritize where the are sending your product while our front line of defense has almost nothing to work with, but that's another story).

My daughter is 29. She is asking me about what she needs to do to make out a will. Think really hard about that for a moment...

I vote that we wait to "open it up" until these hospitals can get through this situation. To do anything other than that is foolish and is, frankly, not fair to these healthcare workers...many of whom are just kids and are swimming every day of their 12 hour shifts in the most uncharted and shark infested waters imaginable.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:00 AM   #4996
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This. Perhaps those choosing to return to normal activities despite the known risks should take an oath to not seek medical attention if they become ill. I’d certainly resent risking my life intubating someone who chose to go the church, then out to dinner in a crowded restaurant followed by an NBA game during a pandemic.
Obviously true.

BUT what do you see the timeline to open doors and start the economy. I doubt anyone believes we wait until there is a vaccine.

At some point we have to say, ok lets now take our chances and get things moving again. Perhaps slowly or perhaps wide open. Perhaps masks and social distancing of some sort at work.

Limited congregations of people without masks etc. No sports, no restaurants.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:04 AM   #4997
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Obviously true.

BUT what do you see the timeline to open doors and start the economy. I doubt anyone believes we wait until there is a vaccine.

At some point we have to say, ok lets now take our chances and get things moving again. Perhaps slowly or perhaps wide open.
I think the time to open doors is when the peak is past and the healthcare providers and hospitals can start to breathe again. I truly believe opening them sooner will result in a complete breakdown of our healthcare system.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:05 AM   #4998
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This. Perhaps those choosing to return to normal activities despite the known risks should take an oath to not seek medical attention if they become ill. Iíd certainly resent risking my life intubating someone who chose to go the church, then out to dinner in a crowded restaurant followed by an NBA game during a pandemic.
Good question Joey. And this is particularly critical given the fact that so many doctors in the US are over 60. Should they risk death because others are willing to roll the dice?

And I have to ask, what about dice rollers's families? Will they expect doctors to treat their parents and children whom they infect?

Stay safe.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:05 AM   #4999
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I think the time to open doors is when the peak is past and the healthcare providers and hospitals can start to breathe again. I truly believe opening them sooner will result in a complete breakdown of our healthcare system.
But how do you get past a peak, if most people have never been in contact with the virus.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:06 AM   #5000
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After all these conversations, this is really the terminus of all of it.

You can't expect the health care professionals to risk their lives, exposed to massive viral loads on a daily basis, while people do whatever they want to and exacerbate the problem, rather than assist in resolving it. It's ridiculous when you think about it.
yup
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:07 AM   #5001
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But how do you get past a peak, if most people have never been in contact with the virus.
Self quarantine. Masks. Isolation techniques. Immunity. Death.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:10 AM   #5002
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So for some of you guys that questioned why I don’t trust the mainstream media especially the New York Times or the Washington Post I give you this article below. I find it interesting nobody has posted it here yet. So you have these people at universities that come up with the modeling and then they give it to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. They then in turn report to the president and the vice president as well as his Coronavirus task force. They then make their decisions based upon that. Well as you are remember and you’re welcome to look back at the beginning of this thread they were predicting the possibility of 3.5 million dead Americans from this pandemic. Then they reduced it down several times to now we are at 100,000 to 240,000 as of this past Wednesday if I recall. Now the same people that create the models and report to our two good doctors have under the table sleazed their way to the Washington post to report that the White House not the doctors themselves are way off on the current predictions of 100,000 to 240,000 deaths. Note, and this is very typical of the Washington post, that the people telling the paper about this are unnamed sources. There’s a big surprise. I’m not a conspiracy theorist people but something doesn’t smell right here. The fact that the Washington post would slam the White House doesn’t surprise me but look at how they are delivering this information now. There is no way around this but something is wrong.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex...te/ar-BB1263eT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...aths-estimate/
Completely agree...


Quote:
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Brett, nobody in their right mind who is currently working in or with the administration will go named on the record and speak out against the White House. We can't talk about why as that is probably treading too deep into political waters. Just look at the series of events over the past year and you'll have your answer.
Look at post #4909 in this thread . Read entire article to the END
for a road map to whats happening... not conspiracy but eerily
identical I'd say. 18 minute video worth watching in it as well .
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:10 AM   #5003
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So for some of you guys that questioned why I donít trust the mainstream media especially the New York Times or the Washington Post I give you this article below. I find it interesting nobody has posted it here yet. So you have these people at universities that come up with the modeling and then they give it to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. They then in turn report to the president and the vice president as well as his Coronavirus task force. They then make their decisions based upon that. Well as you are remember and youíre welcome to look back at the beginning of this thread they were predicting the possibility of 3.5 million dead Americans from this pandemic. Then they reduced it down several times to now we are at 100,000 to 240,000 as of this past Wednesday if I recall. Now the same people that create the models and report to our two good doctors have under the table sleazed their way to the Washington post to report that the White House not the doctors themselves are way off on the current predictions of 100,000 to 240,000 deaths. Note, and this is very typical of the Washington post, that the people telling the paper about this are unnamed sources. Thereís a big surprise. Iím not a conspiracy theorist people but something doesnít smell right here. The fact that the Washington post would slam the White House doesnít surprise me but look at how they are delivering this information now. There is no way around this but something is wrong.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex...te/ar-BB1263eT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...aths-estimate/
Brett:

I think you need to reread the articles. That was not my take away.

Stay safe.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:14 AM   #5004
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Brett, nobody in their right mind who is currently working in or with the administration will go named on the record and speak out against the White House. We can't talk about why as that is probably treading too deep into political waters. Just look at the series of events over the past year and you'll have your answer.
No no no. Im sure you read the article. The unnamed source has nothing to do with the White House. They are from the universities creating the models. This has nothing to do with being political. Iím questioning the sourcing of the models. They created them. They gave them to the doctors and now it looks like they are going back on what they predicted. That has nothing to do with the politicians.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:14 AM   #5005
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Self quarantine. Masks. Isolation techniques. Immunity. Death.
It seems like you're saying we wait for a vaccine. I'm not arguing, I'm wondering.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:15 AM   #5006
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Brett:

I think you need to reread the articles. That was not my take away.

Stay safe.
I have read them several times as well as had people a lot smarter than me read them and thatís how we all took it.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:21 AM   #5007
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But how do you get past a peak, if most people have never been in contact with the virus.
Other countries have done it.

We are trying. Perhaps if we had tried harder earlier, we would be past the peak. But that is water under the bridge.

And it appears to be working in some places in the US. Too early to tell, so I say appears.

You flatten the curve by social distancing (which some states have not yet put in place and some are still ignoring but we are getting better at it).

At the same time you increase testing capability, medical equipment and stores, and PPG. So we don't get caught with our pants down again.

When the peak has passed, you test, test, test. And and trace, trace, trace.

We we pay the long term price of no hand shaking, wearing masks in public (like other countries do) etc. until we have a vaccine.

And this one is optional, but one of my favorites: don't let any cruise ships run unit they have posted a bond large enough to pay for all the cost they have forced tax payers to pay to rescue and quarantine and treat their passengers.

Stay safe.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:23 AM   #5008
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Personally I'd return to normal as soon as things open. I was in a movie theater on 3/14, crowded restaurant 3/15, airport 3/17 -- and then sick a few days later. There's a risk, and I paid a price. But when I get a chance to go out again, I'll take it. I would go to an NBA game next week if they were still playing. Lots of people, mostly younger, would probably join me.
I admire your determined attitude and am thankful you have recovered. But while you took a risk and paid a price, you did not do so in isolation (either metaphorically or in real practice). It worked out for you, but what about the inadvertent person who was undergoing chemo who sat adjacent to you at the theater, or the pregnant waitress who served you at a resteraunt, or the diabetic TSA agent who screened you at the airport.

You were willing to take an educated risk, but their outcome was imposed upon them by your actions. I am not suggesting it was deliberate but when outcomes are life and death does intent matter?

For better or worse our pre-pandemic society placed personal gratification and entitlement ahead of everything. In our current pandemic world a persistent narrative of the "overwhelming hardships" suffered by those who feel least vulnerable to illness, and their willingness to ignore the most informed scientific and medical advice that will protect those most vulnerable, appears to suggest that the "me first" mind set hasn't changed.

I recall a study I read back in college. People were surveyed as to whether they would press a theoretical button in which an unnamed and tbd acquaintance would die assuming they would receive a million dollars for doing so. Less than 1% said they would press the button. When "acquaintance" was substituted with "stranger in a far away place" almost 50% said they would press the button.

The response by many to the pandemic suggests they view those most likely to die from this illness as faceless people in far away places, while for many of us they are friends and family members.

Not suggesting you personally feel this way but extrapolating beyond your post....
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:24 AM   #5009
LandWatch
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Sweden remains convinced it’s on the right track ...

https://apple.news/Ay5Gp8DDfSNSNkJhsySvMzw

Time will tell, I guess ... I hope it proves successful and then we can all return to semi-normal sooner than projected.
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Old 4 April 2020, 03:24 AM   #5010
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It seems like you're saying we wait for a vaccine. I'm not arguing, I'm wondering.
No, the rate will peak. Italy may be at the curve peak right now. As the rates drop, the population can be risk stratified as people here have mentioned, and life can start to re-emerge.

I’m really saddened to see the states bidding against each other for PPE and life-saving equipment. That the country which spends more money on healthcare than any other country in the world can’t supply their front-line workers with PPE is inexcusable.
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