Recourse for factory flaw in case finishing

[mafoofan]

I bought a brand new 5170G from an authorized dealer in early December. Within the first couple of weeks, we noticed some strange vertical distortions in the case finish on the side of one of the lugs. So, I took the watch to Henri Stern Agency a week ago (earliest appointment available). They examined and confirmed that the vertical distortions are present.

However, they also insisted that such distortions can appear on “one or two out of ten watches” as a by-product of hand finishing and therefore are passable by Patek standards. I questioned this assertion as none of the five other Pateks I’ve owned have had similar issues and I don’t see why I should settle for a one-out-of-ten issue on an $80K+ watch.

They then pivoted to suggesting it’s possible that I may have caused the distortions through wearing the watch! I responded that I found that both offensive and incredibly implausible, which shut down this branch of conversation.

Then they pivoted to suggesting that, regardless, I should expect nothing of Patek beyond a service polish as I had already taken the watch from the dealer. I questioned this as well: any manufacturing flaw should be covered under warranty and they need to make the watch right as it should have been new. They did not agree with this perspective and re-emphasized that I have limited ability to expect recourse, since I am a customer and not a dealer.

Ultimately, they offered to send the watch to Geneva for a second opinion, which I agreed to. However, after the above exchange, I do not feel particularly hopeful. As someone else suggested, I have tried emailing Thierry Stern directly—however, he has not been responsive.

Suggestions on how to handle? Hopeful Patek will do the right thing, as they have in the past. Thanks!

[SL BRABUS]

Since you bought it form an authorized dealer..... Why don't you let your authorized dealer take care of this hassle......??

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by SL BRABUS

Since you bought it form an authorized dealer..... Why don't you let your authorized dealer take care of this hassle......??

Authorized dealer is in another country. Last one with the watch, so here I am.

[Arthur Daley]

At the risk of being quite unhelpful, I'll state that assuming this truly is as a result of hand finishing by the factory, then I might actually choose - in your shoes - to leave as is, and feel good about the fact that I have an unusually rare Patek.

One could argue that it's unacceptable, of course, but if it's a known issue to Patek and falls within their high standards of finishing, then it doesn't feel like you'd have much recourse.

Why? Well, there are handmade imperfections everywhere on a hand made and finished watch. There are many more still to be found on your, and others', watches. A magnifying glass is all that's required to find imperfections - however minute - all over the place. To me, it's what makes these watches so special.

Same with a custom or bespoke suit. Invert a button hole and see the coarseness of the stitching on the back - a sign that it's handmade. If it's smooth/even, it's machine stitched. Yet the handmade suit is more special.

I suppose you COULD argue that this is a more visible flaw than others, and therefore unacceptable. But you're doing so relative to your standards, and not Patek's. Plus, one could argue that the imperfections are so small that neither you nor the AD noticed them when bought.

So, in your shoes, I'd send the watch to Switzerland and have them examine it. If they confirm it's not a defect on their end, I'd ask them to leave it alone - and not attempt to correct it, and recognize that you have one very special and rare watch.

Congrats on the watch, btw. It's a stunner.

Sent from my SM-F700U1 using Tapatalk

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by Arthur Daley

At the risk of being quite unhelpful, I'll state that assuming this truly is as a result of hand finishing by the factory, then I might actually choose - in your shoes - to leave as is, and feel good about the fact that I have an unusually rare Patek.

One could argue that it's unacceptable, of course, but if it's a known issue to Patek and falls within their high standards of finishing, then it doesn't feel like you'd have much recourse.

Why? Well, there are handmade imperfections everywhere on a hand made and finished watch. There are many more still to be found on your, and others', watches. A magnifying glass is all that's required to find imperfections - however minute - all over the place. To me, it's what makes these watches so special.

Same with a custom or bespoke suit. Invert a button hole and see the coarseness of the stitching on the back - a sign that it's handmade. If it's smooth/even, it's machine stitched. Yet the handmade suit is more special.

I suppose you COULD argue that this is a more visible flaw than others, and therefore unacceptable. But you're doing so relative to your standards, and not Patek's. Plus, one could argue that the imperfections are so small that neither you nor the AD noticed them when bought.

So, in your shoes, I'd send the watch to Switzerland and have them examine it. If they confirm it's not a defect on their end, I'd ask them to leave it alone - and not attempt to correct it, and recognize that you have one very special and rare watch.

Congrats on the watch, btw. It's a stunner.

Sent from my SM-F700U1 using Tapatalk

I hear you about the imprecision of handmade goods, but this is more conspicuous than that. The vertical distortions include a bold line bisecting where the lug meets the case. A Patek-trained watchmaker first spotted the issue and explained that they held the case to the polishing wheel with too much pressure when vertically oriented. He was surprised it passed QC.

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

In Japan, when a piece is handmade by a Living National Treasure, these defects are expected and considered as what gives its "personality" and uniqueness.

I have heard the same about Philippe Dufour's watches. Under close inspection you will find what some would consider "defects" while others would consider its "soul".

When a watch, a mobile phone, etc is more industrialized this is unacceptable.

With the new mobile phone (iphone 13 & co) macro capabilities, close inspection is getting democratized which is putting pressure on QA departments.

So you are indeed asking a real question about PP: are defects tolerable?

If you consider it as an defect, get it back to where you bought it and have them handle the case.

If it is considered as an obvious manufacturing issue and makes it unique, you may consider it as your "double nine".

PS: when you dig in the forums, you see that these issues are more common than advertised. Even FPJ or AP often have issues with some calibers or models.

[btinl]

I purchased a 5170R from an AD in 2020 and noticed finishing flaws. Fortunately, my AD just took it back.

[B01fan]

I hope you don’t mind me saying, but you’re a legendary poster and I hope that this gets resolved to your complete satisfaction.

Unfortunately Patek makes so many watches these days compared to 20-30 years ago and the prices go up and up while the standard of finishing seemingly goes down.

[Arthur Daley]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I hear you about the imprecision of handmade goods, but this is more conspicuous than that. The vertical distortions include a bold line bisecting where the lug meets the case. A Patek-trained watchmaker first spotted the issue and explained that they held the case to the polishing wheel with too much pressure when vertically oriented. He was surprised it passed QC.

I see. If Patek does acknowledge that this a defect that shouldn't have passed QC, then I suppose they would have two options: attempt to refinish the impacted lug, or provide you with a new case. Perhaps take it one step at a time and see what they say.

I do understand your expectation of higher quality, and sincerely hope this is resolved to your satisfaction. Good luck!

PS. I don't normally examine new watches closely. My next will be a Perpetual Calendar and you've inspired me to look more closely together with the AD.

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[cascavel]

Since the watch is being sent to Patek, Switzerland, why not wait and see what they say.
In reality, the only recourse you would have would be to quit buying Patek products and, if you feel sufficiently aggrieved, sell the ones you own, thereby further depressing Patek's market prices.

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by cascavel

Since the watch is being sent to Patek, Switzerland, why not wait and see what they say.
In reality, the only recourse you would have would be to quit buying Patek products and, if you feel sufficiently aggrieved, sell the ones you own, thereby further depressing Patek's market prices.

Or they could just replace the case!

[2001jesper]

I would also strive to have it resolved, and would certainly not entertain the idea that I should feel fortunate to have a "unique" watch. At 80k you pay for perfection.

Additionally, if you grow tired of it one day, then it becomes a hassle to off-load.

[Fenrira]

I think a picture or two might be helpful here.

[CarlOver]

I would email the AD and forward photos. Politely explain that you are unhappy and want to return the watch to them to get sorted. See how they respond.

[JodyHighroller]

Originally Posted by CarlOver

I would email the AD and forward photos. Politely explain that you are unhappy and want to return the watch to them to get sorted. See how they respond.

He already mentioned his AD is a different country, so not an option.

[JR16]

Pics?


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[mafoofan]

UPDATE:

Patek Geneva examined the watch and agreed that there is a defect in the case finishing that should not have passed QC. They are going to repair the case in a “return to stock” procedure that they claim will put the watch back to new condition, indistinguishable from any other brand new Patek. From what was explained to me, this requires putting the watch case “back through production” and is completely different from a standard service polish. They assured that there will be no metal loss, the profile will be as new, and all edges will be factory sharp. If the result does not pass QC, they will replace the case.

Should I be happy with this or should I press for a replacement case upfront?

[Henrimontgomery]

How can they repolish the case without polishing it once more? Strange.

[HMHM]

If you can get a replacement case that would be my choice personally. A new case with the exact serial number would be ideal.

[EEpro]

It's either a new case or a polish. Their explanation is just wordsmanship.

[Mattt]

[MadSpaniard]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I bought a brand new 5170G from an authorized dealer in early December. Within the first couple of weeks, we noticed some strange vertical distortions in the case finish on the side of one of the lugs. So, I took the watch to Henri Stern Agency a week ago (earliest appointment available). They examined and confirmed that the vertical distortions are present.

However, they also insisted that such distortions can appear on “one or two out of ten watches” as a by-product of hand finishing and therefore are passable by Patek standards. I questioned this assertion as none of the five other Pateks I’ve owned have had similar issues and I don’t see why I should settle for a one-out-of-ten issue on an $80K+ watch.

They then pivoted to suggesting it’s possible that I may have caused the distortions through wearing the watch! I responded that I found that both offensive and incredibly implausible, which shut down this branch of conversation.

Then they pivoted to suggesting that, regardless, I should expect nothing of Patek beyond a service polish as I had already taken the watch from the dealer. I questioned this as well: any manufacturing flaw should be covered under warranty and they need to make the watch right as it should have been new. They did not agree with this perspective and re-emphasized that I have limited ability to expect recourse, since I am a customer and not a dealer.

Ultimately, they offered to send the watch to Geneva for a second opinion, which I agreed to. However, after the above exchange, I do not feel particularly hopeful. As someone else suggested, I have tried emailing Thierry Stern directly—however, he has not been responsive.

Suggestions on how to handle? Hopeful Patek will do the right thing, as they have in the past. Thanks!

This is unfortunate - but not unheard of. In 25 years of buying Pateks, I've actually had factory flaws on 3 distinct factory-new units, two had small blemishes (like knots causing light distortion) in the crystal, one was an issue with the dial - all very small, but undeniably flaws. One I returned for a refund, one was exchanged for a new unit, one I lived with.

I've never been overly impressed with Patek's quality control - it's good, certainly, but not at the level of absolute perfection you would expect from a brand of this level. While I think their QC has improved in recent years, e.g. the past 7-10 years or so, other high-level brands routinely meet or exceed Patek's QC (in my experience, Rolex smokes Patek in this regard).

Patek has marketed the aura of unparalleled quality and perfection very well, they've created a mythology around that, but the reality doesn't always live up to the claim.

Now, at any level, mistakes can and do happen, and I'm always ready to be understanding and forgiving for an honest mistake, even from top tier brands.

But the BS lines they are telling you: that's inexcusable. I'd be pissed, and you should be too. How they handle situations like this reveals their true brand, who they really are.

As Steve Jobs noted (in his analogy about a carpenter), perfection should be carried all the way through. All the way. That includes design, quality, product, behavior, intent, service - and how these sorts of issues are dealt with.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

UPDATE:

Patek Geneva examined the watch and agreed that there is a defect in the case finishing that should not have passed QC. They are going to repair the case in a “return to stock” procedure that they claim will put the watch back to new condition, indistinguishable from any other brand new Patek. From what was explained to me, this requires putting the watch case “back through production” and is completely different from a standard service polish. They assured that there will be no metal loss, the profile will be as new, and all edges will be factory sharp. If the result does not pass QC, they will replace the case.

Should I be happy with this or should I press for a replacement case upfront?

I think I’d be satisfied with this. It’s sounds to me like a genuine attempt to rectify the error. I’d give them the benefit of the doubt.

Of course, you’ll have to see what it actually looks like upon receipt.

Good luck.

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by Henrimontgomery

How can they repolish the case without polishing it once more? Strange.

Originally Posted by EEpro

It's either a new case or a polish. Their explanation is just wordsmanship.

I pressed on this matter as well. I was told that when a case is put back through production rather than service polished, they first laser weld any new metal necessary to avoid net material loss and then go through all the minute steps of factory polishing used when the case was first made, thereby duplicating an as-new result. This includes things like diamond-polishing the bezel, which creates a distortion-free, perfectly flat plane that would otherwise be impossible. In a service polish, they would simply use a buffing wheel on the bezel, adding a little more roundness and distortion each time.

Apparently, the above described “return to stock” repair happens behind the scenes all the time unbeknownst to the customer. It could be an instance where a watch has accumulated shop wear at the dealer and the dealer sends the watch back to Patek to be made new again. I suspect this is why sometimes we see out-of-production models suddenly appear in stock as new watches a year or more after being discontinued.

Also, say a watch doesn’t pass final QC in production: rather than throw out the case, Patek may run it back through the gauntlet. Neither the AD nor the consumer would ever be made aware.

Originally Posted by HMHM

If you can get a replacement case that would be my choice personally. A new case with the exact serial number would be ideal.

I am first trying to decide whether I am convinced by the above …

[JodyHighroller]

I’d let them try their “return to stock” method first. In the event it doesn’t appeal to you upon its return then press for a new case w/ matching serial. Make sure to discuss what if you aren’t happy with the return to stock service and what would happen next?

I had a new 126655 damaged by the official RSC. They repaired the case as a first step, but I still wasn’t satisfied so they ordered a new case w/ matching serial. Even though I wanted a new case, my contact said they still had to proceed with the attempted repair due to management before ordering a new case. In the event I wouldn’t be happy post repair then they could proceed with a new case w/ matching serial. I believe the same could be applied in your situation.

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by JodyHighroller

I’d let them try their “return to stock” method first. In the event it doesn’t appeal to you upon its return then press for a new case w/ matching serial.

I had a new 126655 damaged by the official RSC. They repaired the case as a first step, but I still wasn’t satisfied so they ordered a new case w/ matching serial. Even though I wanted a new case, my contact said they still had to proceed with the attempted repair due to management before ordering a new case. In the event I wouldn’t be happy post repair then they could proceed with a new case w/ matching serial. I believe the same could be applied in your situation.

Thanks. The wrinkle here is that the watch had already been put through “return to stock” prior my purchase! Something just feels weird about doing it twice.

They did say that they’ll replace the case at their own discretion if they determine the final result doesn’t fit the specs for a brand new watch. That also implies to me that if they sign-off on the watch this time, I will have very little leeway to challenge them.

[77T]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Also, say a watch doesn’t pass final QC in production: rather than throw out the case, Patek may run it back through the gauntlet. Neither the AD nor the consumer would ever be made aware.

The cost of a new case being made from a blank is largely in the labor and then the effort to bring it to final finishing. Tossing out bad cases is a no brainer before assembly begins.

I believe what PP is saying (in a general sense) they have performed “resurrections” in the past. But I also believe it is not routinely done for a QC issue alone. Ordinarily, if caught then it would simply be sent to the polishing wheel again methinks.

For your situation, perhaps await the outcome of this unique procedure Geneva has described.

This way it stands a good chance of getting a perfect finish and you still have an “all original” watch (if that is of particular interest for you).

Should the extra efforts fail to satisfy, then perhaps explore a replacement case.


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[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by 77T

The cost of a new case being made from a blank is largely in the labor and then the effort to bring it to final finishing. Tossing out bad cases is a no brainer before assembly begins.

I believe what PP is saying (in a general sense) they have performed “resurrections” in the past. But I also believe it is not routinely done for a QC issue alone. Ordinarily, if caught then it would simply be sent to the polishing wheel again methinks.

For your situation, perhaps await the outcome of this unique procedure Geneva has described.

This way it stands a good chance of getting a perfect finish and you still have an “all original” watch (if that is of particular interest for you).

Should the extra efforts fail to satisfy, then perhaps explore a replacement case.


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I guess the fundamental question is how much to trust Geneva on this. If they say the watch can be made good as new, can I take that to the bank?

[77T]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I guess the fundamental question is how much to trust Geneva on this. If they say the watch can be made good as new, can I take that to the bank?

Of course that’s a good question.

Only Time will tell…pun not intentional.

If you’re not happy, I think you could sell it onward to the AD as an “estate item” and place another order. Not sure that they would do that but a thought.


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