YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I could not agree more. I have been looking at Parmagiani for a while now. I've tried on a couple of pieces as well... They are unbelievable.

What is crazy to me is that they hit all the marks collectors usually care about: finishing (top of the line), in-house manufacturing (these guys are "in-house" all the way down to manufacturing their own screws! They may be more "in-house" than any other brand actually), and independence. But nobody talks about them... Why?

Their marketing is not great since they don't sponsor major events (except for Hot Air Ballooning), they don's have "icons" and they typically aren't found in print ads. Then again... perhaps the fact that they abscond from that stuff, is indeed what makes them great.

I've heard that they have historically run at a loss, and they've never been profitable. Is that true?

Parmigiani is a wonderful restaurator, but the effort to iterate that into a brand with a bunch of Sandoz money was too artificial to hit a chord with the public.

I’m also not sure I agree on the top of the line finishing. They are good, but like Moser or AP, lots of CNC machines are involved at Vaucher where others would have people sitting at benches.

Marketing and positioning is also desperately misguided so far, which obviously isn’t great when we’re talking about aspirational objects.

To make a brand successful, you have to attach desirable attributes to the products that go beyond the quality and execution of the product itself.

If I wear that new FPJ I just got, I’m not just a guy with a nicely made gold watch, if I wear that watch, I wear an FPJ. I get to show the world that I’m sophisticated enough to « get it », that I have what it takes to see value in it and ultimately that I can afford it.

When I wear a Parmigiani, what is it that I’m getting? What have I afforded? The 30% discount? Why am I sophisticated? And how sophisticated am I?

All of those questions are questions that a successful brand would have provided ample answers to. Not so Parmigiani. At least not yet. And I really hope they do, visited the manufacture a few years ago and there definitely is something there they could build on. They just seemingly don’t want to.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by solaire

How does rolex make the modern trilology?

Seems Rolex got lots of yeah... but...

So, why can't Rolex be eligible? Please quote the 'rules'?

Are you saying the many people who respect Rolex, all that Rolex has done for the industry, all the kindness to support human endeavors and sports.... If there were three brands that make up the Modern Holy Trinity, what is the criteria?

Longtime manufacturer?

Great service to customers?

Honoring horology and being a positive example?

They win a popularity contest?

It is because it is and that's how it is (assumed 'authoritative' and 'familiar')

Again I ask, what are 'the rules?' Please send emails, ask magazine editors, journalists, let's hear from them.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Seems Rolex got lots of yeah... but...

So, why can't Rolex be eligible? Please quote the 'rules'?

Are you saying the many people who respect Rolex, all that Rolex has done for the industry, all the kindness to support human endeavors and sports.... If there were three brands that make up the Modern Holy Trinity, what is the criteria?

Longtime manufacturer?

Great service to customers?

Honoring horology and being a positive example?

They win a popularity contest?

It is because it is and that's how it is (assumed 'authoritative' and 'familiar')

Again I ask, what are 'the rules?' Please send emails, ask magazine editors, journalists, let's hear from them.

You’re certainly right in that there are no rules that we would know of for sure. But if you look at what united the three brands of what we know as the trinity, it is that all three were/are widely recognized and respected purveyors of very high quality, hand finished complicated watchmaking at scale. So you could argue that, among the big brands, they are the best you can get in terms of execution.

If you use those metrics, Rolex is nowhere near the top three, nor do they have any ambition to be.

I’d even argue that AP is no longer among the top three for how reliant they have become on machine finishing.

But Patek still reigns sovereign on that playground, and VC still has its place as well. I would add ALS as a third, but they might be too small to fulfill the « big brand » criteria. Bréguet isn’t consistent enough in the quality of its execution or respected enough. Neither is GP. IWC and JLC are a few tiers down on the quality and execution scale, as are Blancpain and GO. GS and Rolex are even further down the foodchain.

As for the independents, many of which make truly impressive things, they’re all too small.

So this third position really isn’t that easy to hand out to anyone. We might have to begrudgingly just leave it with AP and their army of robots. Unless we put the threshold for a big brand just low enough to allow Lange into the definition, then the case would be clear, but such a move would also be entirely arbitrary.

The fact of the matter is that it really isn’t easy to make watches of that level (Patek/VC) at scale. And when you consistently show you can, you deserve to be in the trinity.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

Parmigiani is a wonderful restaurator, but the effort to iterate that into a brand with a bunch of Sandoz money was too artificial to hit a chord with the public.

I’m also not sure I agree on the top of the line finishing. They are good, but like Moser or AP, lots of CNC machines are involved at Vaucher where others would have people sitting at benches.

Marketing and positioning is also desperately misguided so far, which obviously isn’t great when we’re talking about aspirational objects.

To make a brand successful, you have to attach desirable attributes to the products that go beyond the quality and execution of the product itself.

If I wear that new FPJ I just got, I’m not just a guy with a nicely made gold watch, if I wear that watch, I wear an FPJ. I get to show the world that I’m sophisticated enough to « get it », that I have what it takes to see value in it and ultimately that I can afford it.

When I wear a Parmigiani, what is it that I’m getting? What have I afforded? The 30% discount? Why am I sophisticated? And how sophisticated am I?

All of those questions are questions that a successful brand would have provided ample answers to. Not so Parmigiani. At least not yet. And I really hope they do, visited the manufacture a few years ago and there definitely is something there they could build on. They just seemingly don’t want to.

Concerning the finishing
Depends on the piece you’re looking at

Their entry watches are indeed at that level
So good but no super high end

On the other hand, ever handled their ionica 8 days?
I swear this is much MUCH better finished than any similar patek, AP or VC
I wish they would reintroduce that movement in a top line

Same goes for the splitsecond they still offer today. This is real haute horlogerie
And an AP to name one doesn’t even come close.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

You’re certainly right in that there are no rules that we would know of for sure. But if you look at what united the three brands of what we know as the trinity, it is that all three were/are widely recognized and respected purveyors of very high quality, hand finished complicated watchmaking at scale. So you could argue that, among the big brands, they are the best you can get in terms of execution.

What was the output of each in 1960 since you mention it? Haven't had time to find that data.

As for finishing, which techniques are considered and to what extent? Does it have to be throughout the entire production, or is a sliding scale of hand finishing quality per price allowed? Does additional movement decoration, such as ALS, give it higher merit? Given what I think are your rules, we need to remove at least one old school and add ALS ????

[mspeed76]

you cant talk about modern horology without Richard Mille

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by mspeed76

you cant talk about modern horology without Richard Mille

And you can't talk about Richard Mille without AP/APRP...

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by unknown

Concerning the finishing
Depends on the piece you’re looking at

Their entry watches are indeed at that level
So good but no super high end

On the other hand, ever handled their ionica 8 days?
I swear this is much MUCH better finished than any similar patek, AP or VC
I wish they would reintroduce that movement in a top line

Same goes for the splitsecond they still offer today. This is real haute horlogerie
And an AP to name one doesn’t even come close.

I don’t dispute for one second that they can if they want to, and you are correct that in that one 150k+ model in the new Tonda GT line, they put that on display. But you can’t measure a brand by one model with a six figure price tag when everything else they currently make is in the mid tier at best. AP does have a whole series of sharp inward angles on their skeleton, mind you a watch with a list price that’s 3x inferior to the one of that Tonda. But that doesn’t make your average 11.59, 15500 or Offshore into a well finished watch by any standard.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

What was the output of each in 1960 since you mention it? Haven't had time to find that data.

As for finishing, which techniques are considered and to what extent? Does it have to be throughout the entire production, or is a sliding scale of hand finishing quality per price allowed? Does additional movement decoration, such as ALS, give it higher merit? Given what I think are your rules, we need to remove at least one old school and add ALS ????

In the 60ies both Patek and AP made around 10,000 watches a year judging by the sequential serial numbers. So still double what ALS makes today.

My personal view would be that today ALS must take AP’s spot among the top 3, but that, as I mentioned, kind of runs afoul of the argument that a trinity brand must produce a certain quantity, which I think should be a marker. Otherwise you have to add every one of the many talented independents and you’ll never credibly reduce those to only three.

Even if you discount the legacy entirely and make a spot measurement of a brand’s street cred at this very moment, you’d end up with more than three, if anything, doing so would be more favorable to AP, as the brand remains very popular despite the decline in quality of its baseline volume products.

[enjoythemusic]

Great points Fred

[GST15]

Originally Posted by djnick

someone remind me again why ap with only 1 watch model really after decades belongs in the holy trinity?

+1

[solaire]

Originally Posted by djnick

Someone remind me again why AP with only 1 watch model really after decades belongs in the holy trinity?

It doesn't anymore.

They would be the first to be dropped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enjoythemusic]

FYI, pretty much not a single person seems to be defending AP here or email.

Am discounting the lazy 'its ok as it is' people.

[Slider817]

Grubel, AP, Journe

[malba2366]

Originally Posted by solaire

It doesn't anymore.

They would be the first to be dropped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

History of continuous production, historical significance - the first luxury sport watch. The holy trinity is as much about the history of the brand and its contributions to horology as it is to what they are producing today. They have innovated in other areas well such as the first minute repeater, automatic grande complications watches and very thin automatic movements.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

FYI, pretty much not a single person seems to be defending AP here or email.

Am discounting the lazy 'its ok as it is' people.

That’s what happens if you don’t even bother cleaning up your parts and assemble them into your movements with raw machining marks on every surface that isn’t immediately visible through the caseback. I’m exaggerating a bit of course but if you disassemble a modern AP base movement, you will find many unattractive signatures left behind by the robots that made it, and at that level, that’s unacceptable in my eyes.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by malba2366

History of continuous production, historical significance - the first luxury sport watch. The holy trinity is as much about the history of the brand and its contributions to horology as it is to what they are producing today. They have innovated in other areas well such as the first minute repeater, automatic grande complications watches and very thin automatic movements.

All true, but nobody argues that they have never been in the trinity. The question is more whether that affords them a lifetime spot and in view of what they’re doing, I’m not sure that’d be warranted.

[shafran]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

Parmigiani is a wonderful restaurator, but the effort to iterate that into a brand with a bunch of Sandoz money was too artificial to hit a chord with the public.

I’m also not sure I agree on the top of the line finishing. They are good, but like Moser or AP, lots of CNC machines are involved at Vaucher where others would have people sitting at benches.

Marketing and positioning is also desperately misguided so far, which obviously isn’t great when we’re talking about aspirational objects.

To make a brand successful, you have to attach desirable attributes to the products that go beyond the quality and execution of the product itself.

If I wear that new FPJ I just got, I’m not just a guy with a nicely made gold watch, if I wear that watch, I wear an FPJ. I get to show the world that I’m sophisticated enough to « get it », that I have what it takes to see value in it and ultimately that I can afford it.

When I wear a Parmigiani, what is it that I’m getting? What have I afforded? The 30% discount? Why am I sophisticated? And how sophisticated am I?

All of those questions are questions that a successful brand would have provided ample answers to. Not so Parmigiani. At least not yet. And I really hope they do, visited the manufacture a few years ago and there definitely is something there they could build on. They just seemingly don’t want to.

I think you have bought the bs about journe. I have owned five different Journe, each one needed servicing within 1 year of ownership. They are artfully beuatiful, but to say they are"superior" to parmigiani and others is not true. I love the 18k movements, but reliability is not there. There are so many others that are top of the line Christophe claret, grubel forsey etc.
My parmigiani runs well for longer than my journe did. I was into them way before they were selling for close to list on the used market.
just my 2 cents.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I don’t dispute for one second that they can if they want to, and you are correct that in that one 150k+ model in the new Tonda GT line, they put that on display. But you can’t measure a brand by one model with a six figure price tag when everything else they currently make is in the mid tier at best. AP does have a whole series of sharp inward angles on their skeleton, mind you a watch with a list price that’s 3x inferior to the one of that Tonda. But that doesn’t make your average 11.59, 15500 or Offshore into a well finished watch by any standard.

And I’ll tell you a secret, those inward angles you’ll see on an AP RO skeleton are not even done in-house
I visited a company in Switzerland and saw some parts they were finishing for AP
For example that bridge over the balance…. You know , the one with the only sharp angles on that watch

In-house ? My a$$

The more I know the more I don’t trust these big brands anymore.

[RolexBHR]

Breguet?

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by unknown

And I’ll tell you a secret, those inward angles you’ll see on an AP RO skeleton are not even done in-house
I visited a company in Switzerland and saw some parts they were finishing for AP
For example that bridge over the balance…. You know , the one with the only sharp angles on that watch

In-house ? My a$$

The more I know the more I don’t trust these big brands anymore.

I know, and its not even like it hadn't always been like that. Believe me, there is no love lost between AP and me. I have been a critic of what they do for years, all while owning one. I am as far from being an AP fan as you can imagine. The only big brands I truly respect for what they do are VC and ALS, which in my experience (resulting from taking long hard looks below the surface) have the most integrity in how they make their watches, Patek as well, to a lesser degree. And even with those three, not everything is of course what you'd hope it is.

My point was that you can't say that AP makes well finished movements just because they buy well finished components for certain models. Likewise, you can't say Parmigiani makes superbly finished movements when they make one exquisite showpiece among a range of otherwise not quite as impressive industrial Vaucher stuff.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by shafran

I think you have bought the bs about journe. I have owned five different Journe, each one needed servicing within 1 year of ownership. They are artfully beuatiful, but to say they are"superior" to parmigiani and others is not true. I love the 18k movements, but reliability is not there. There are so many others that are top of the line Christophe claret, grubel forsey etc.
My parmigiani runs well for longer than my journe did. I was into them way before they were selling for close to list on the used market.
just my 2 cents.

Thank you for the lively commentary, but you can leave it with me to make my decisions as to what I want to spend my money on and why. I'm old and well informed enough to discern what qualifies as bs and what doesn't.

Besides, if you had read my post properly you'd have taken away from it that the point was about brand building in general, not about defending my subjective purchase rationale.

I have made no argument that the watch itself is superior to a Parmigiani. I made the argument that Journe has built a much better brand story and experience than what little of an inept effort Parmigiani has made in this area.

Whether the movements are more robust or not is only indirectly related. If no one ever gets me to be interested in a Parmigiani watch in the first place, what difference does it make if it works well or not. In contrast, many Journe owners will never even find out if their watches work while they leave them untouched in their safes.

In my view, you'd have to fire everyone who remotely has anything to do with marketing in Fleurier, and you don't have to stop at Parmigiani, you can continue all the way through Chopard as well.


Then, you'd have to select the 10-15 best finishers in your restoration department and start finishing those parts you're getting from across the town to a level people actually want to show on their Instagram, instead of just dropping what falls out of the CNC machines into cases and flogging them away at big discounts.

That would probably cut the annual production into a fraction of what it was and take care of the ample stock of less than inspiring watches that's still harming the brand by collecting dust in AD windows.

You have to realize, while I'm personally not a fan of braggadocio either, everyone bragging with your watches gives them exposure and is advertising your brand for free. With social media to propel such advertising even further, this has become the central element of making a brand successful. But surprisingly, only very few brands understand that. Not everyone who buys watches does so to brag, but everyone who brags sells more of your watches. So goddamit start giving folks something to brag about and shut down those boring bean counters explaining how big the economies of scale are when you can share your losses with Hermes and Gorilla watches.

But nobody has the balls to take such radical measures up there, as it would cost folks that have grown up with them their livelihood, endanger their own jobs and lose Sandoz even more money in the immediate future than what they have been steadily throwing away for this mediocre brand over the past years.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

Parmigiani is a wonderful restaurator, but the effort to iterate that into a brand with a bunch of Sandoz money was too artificial to hit a chord with the public.

I’m also not sure I agree on the top of the line finishing. They are good, but like Moser or AP, lots of CNC machines are involved at Vaucher where others would have people sitting at benches.

Marketing and positioning is also desperately misguided so far, which obviously isn’t great when we’re talking about aspirational objects.

To make a brand successful, you have to attach desirable attributes to the products that go beyond the quality and execution of the product itself.

If I wear that new FPJ I just got, I’m not just a guy with a nicely made gold watch, if I wear that watch, I wear an FPJ. I get to show the world that I’m sophisticated enough to « get it », that I have what it takes to see value in it and ultimately that I can afford it.

When I wear a Parmigiani, what is it that I’m getting? What have I afforded? The 30% discount? Why am I sophisticated? And how sophisticated am I?

All of those questions are questions that a successful brand would have provided ample answers to. Not so Parmigiani. At least not yet. And I really hope they do, visited the manufacture a few years ago and there definitely is something there they could build on. They just seemingly don’t want to.

Love this take.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by unknown

The more I know the more I don’t trust these big brands anymore.

While I'm not one to disagree, as the decades pass some brands have indeed lost their luster the more i discovered about them over the decades.

For example, there is one Italian/Swiss brand i'd love to know if they even truly make their calibers, or if many parts come from Asia and they just 'finish' and assemble them in Switzerland or ??? Other brands bring up questions about....

Thank goodness we now have wonderful modern brands who are open about their production and quality. They provide more transparency, instead of hiding behind fabled 'Swiss secrets' and the like. Would say more here, yet private conversations and e-mails said in confidence don't 'allow me' to say more here.


-------------------
-------------------


There is another, modern and transparent way....


MB & FRIENDS showcases the many talented people who help design and create their mechanical masterpieces. Would say more here, yet we already know because MB&F is upfront and honest about their production.

Let us celebrate the individuals who have dedicated their lives to creating fine handcrafted parts, engineering, assembly, etc. They have very much earned recognition.

This is also where companies could take a lesson from Czapek. Czapek did a wonderful multi-part video about the making of their new 'in-house' movement. They proudly showcase the many talented craftspeople who kindly provide their expertise in producing the parts, finishing work, assembly, testing... all the way to the final production. Below is part one of seven parts, so be sure to watch all seven parts.

Would you like to see manufacturers produce these types of videos so those who do the actual work get the recognition they earned?

[Easy E]

I found this the other day. Not my list, so everyone CTFO. I'm just offering this as a data point. In terms of watchmaking, I personally disagree with points 2 and 13, and find point 13 most debatable - two years ago a used Patek could be had at a bargain compared to MSRP, but yet sits on top of the leaderboard.

The 14 Ranking Criteria:

1. Long and respected history
2. Limited supply – large demand
3. Reputation/status/prestige
4. Whether or not the brand is a fully independent watchmaker
5. Pioneering spirit and innovations
6. Impact on watchmaking history and modern culture
7. General in-house production (meaning every aspect of the manufacture is in-house)
8. In-house made movements
9. Movement complications
10. Steel grade
11. Build quality
12. Price range
13. Good resale value
14. Market presence/Market share/Market dominance

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

While I'm not one to disagree, as the decades pass some brands have indeed lost their luster the more i discovered about them over the decades.

For example, there is one Italian/Swiss brand i'd love to know if they even truly make their calibers, or if many parts come from Asia and they just 'finish' and assemble them in Switzerland or ??? Other brands bring up questions about....

Thank goodness we now have wonderful modern brands who are open about their production and quality. They provide more transparency, instead of hiding behind fabled 'Swiss secrets' and the like. Would say more here, yet private conversations and e-mails said in confidence don't 'allow me' to say more here.


-------------------
-------------------


There is another, modern and transparent way....


MB & FRIENDS showcases the many talented people who help design and create their mechanical masterpieces. Would say more here, yet we already know because MB&F is upfront and honest about their production.

Let us celebrate the individuals who have dedicated their lives to creating fine handcrafted parts, engineering, assembly, etc. They have very much earned recognition.

This is also where companies could take a lesson from Czapek. Czapek did a wonderful multi-part video about the making of their new 'in-house' movement. They proudly showcase the many talented craftspeople who kindly provide their expertise in producing the parts, finishing work, assembly, testing... all the way to the final production. Below is part one of seven parts, so be sure to watch all seven parts.

Would you like to see manufacturers produce these types of videos so those who do the actual work get the recognition they earned?

Czapek really is making all the right moves to create a proper following at the moment. In my mind, this will be the « if only we had known brand » for many soon when the lists will be closed and they can’t get one.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

Czapek really is making all the right moves to create a proper following at the moment. In my mind, this will be the « if only we had known brand » for many soon when the lists will be closed and they can’t get one.

I fell in love the moment I saw their new movement diagram years ago. Contacted them to ask about one of my crazy OCD possibilities. We agreed the efforts and costs would be a challenge. I've contacted a few manufacturers over the years about 'crazy ideas' that pop up in my mind.

Anywho....

Perhaps it's just me, yet my current feelings are to support PEOPLE who bring personal passion, incredible ingenuity, high quality, excellent customer service.... Kari is on the list, too, once his new gig solidifies.

Throw marketing hype aside, and instead show us step-by-step why your product deserves recognition.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

I fell in love the moment I saw their new movement diagram years ago. Contacted them to ask about one of my crazy OCD possibilities. We agreed the efforts and costs would be a challenge. I've contacted a few manufacturers over the years about 'crazy ideas' that pop up in my mind.

Anywho....

Perhaps it's just me, yet my current feelings are to support PEOPLE who bring personal passion, incredible ingenuity, high quality, excellent customer service.... Kari is on the list, too, once his new gig solidifies.

Throw marketing hype aside, and instead show us step-by-step why your product deserves recognition.

What's your take on Laurent Ferrier? Seems like they are every bit VC class finishing and then some... But not mentioned oft mentioned here.

What say you Nav01L?

[solaire]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

What's your take on Laurent Ferrier? Seems like they are every bit VC class finishing and then some... But not mentioned oft mentioned here.

What say you Nav01L?

Mainly because the brand is only 13yrs old and production levels are so low.


Their pieces are definitely high horology


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

What's your take on Laurent Ferrier? Seems like they are every bit VC class finishing and then some... But not mentioned oft mentioned here.

What say you Nav01L?

High respect for what they do, like for many independents. But as I mentioned earlier, there are so many small independents that make truly impressive watches and/or have built truly impressive brands that you can’t really cull them down to three. And like the other independents, they don’t have any ambition to work at scale either (that’s not a negative, but it’s a differentiator towards the big brands), they have something like 25 people working at the company and make very few watches per year. So you can’t really compare them with juggernauts like VC or Patek, even if the product is superior at LF.

Also, you can’t really talk about Ferrier without talking about Barbasini and Navas (la Fabrique du Temps, today Louis Vuitton), who make their movements. All Ferrier does is finish them (and finish them very well) and assemble them into the watch they originally designed. So it’s a very tight partnership that only really works with those exact partners. It’s a bit like Czapek and Chronode.