YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

High respect for what they do, like for many independents. But as I mentioned earlier, there are so many small independents that make truly impressive watches and/or have built truly impressive brands that you can’t really cull them down to three. And like the other independents, they don’t have any ambition to work at scale either (that’s not a negative, but it’s a differentiator towards the big brands), they have something like 25 people working at the company and make very few watches per year. So you can’t really compare them with juggernauts like VC or Patek, even if the product is superior at LF.

Also, you can’t really talk about Ferrier without talking about Barbasini and Navas (la Fabrique du Temps, today Louis Vuitton), who make their movements. All Ferrier does is finish them (and finish them very well) and assemble them into the watch they originally designed. So it’s a very tight partnership that only really works with those exact partners. It’s a bit like Czapek and Chronode.

Some parts ( the most difficult) are not done in-house. They also sent them to the company I visited. So yes they did the inward angles etc for the AP RO skeleton…. And also parts for LF.
And others to….. but can’t tell everything I saw or know.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by unknown

Some parts ( the most difficult) are not done in-house. They also sent them to the company I visited. So yes they did the inward angles etc for the AP RO skeleton…. And also parts for LF.
And others to….. but can’t tell everything I saw or know.

Yes, but again this is par for the course in watchmaking, and also quite traditional when you think about it. LF have what, about 3-4 people who do their finishing inhouse, so it’s hardly surprising that they would outsource the more time consuming aspects of it. Let’s face it, all the brands do that from a certain level on upwards. I would be very surprised if the finer components for something like a Cabinotiers piece from VC were finished fully in-house (in fact I know Blandenier does a lot for them), same with many other brands. And it’s only natural. If you had them on your payroll full time, what would you give those top line finishers to do once the very limited run you need from them is completed? There are only so many of those ultra high finish watches you can sell. But there are exceptions too. I know Patek does much of their top of the line regular collection pieces like the 5370 widely in-house, and VC does as well to a large extent with repetitive pieces, such as e.g. a Cornes de Vache. Lange does a lot in-house as well, if perhaps only because they’re just too far from that ecosystem to efficiently bounce components back and forth (but even they probably refer certain things to companies/providers like DHVJ, Transcendance, Jeanlouis and the like, they do also quite openly source their cases from that ecosystem with Centror (AP) and Efteor, and their dials from Pforzheim, I’m sure the Handwerkskunst pieces also have origin stories that must reach further than merely the halls of the manufacture).

LF has always said that they conceived their role as the one of an architect, they plan the watches and take final responsibility for their execution but they make no claim (that I’m aware of) that they do everything in-house.

As for that company you referenced, would be very interested to know if it’s the one I’m thinking of, perhaps you can PN me a pointer.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

I feel the Modern world is about inclusion. Race, color, birthplace, mother tongue... all are welcome. Do you feel that is fair in 2022?

Food For Thought:

1900 is to 1960

As 1960 is to 2020

I see watch as presentation of human finest commitment to mechanical engineering and present them as art form. In this case, I think one should be blind to color, birthplace, mother tongue and race. Affirmative action has no place in art. So who cares about inclusion?

If the watch making is good, it does not matter where it comes from, I would not choose a watch just because I don't have a watch made by Asian yet, so I have to pick Ming or Kikuno. You know what I mean?. If there is a watch I like, I would not choose it because of anything else but the watch itself.

[enjoythemusic]

After much thought, sure, you classic guys win.

Let's keep the vintage Holy Trinity and only recommend those brand names so the uneducated, or easily convinced due to a lack of critical thinking skills, to stay within their lane. Those brands are what are popular, and it doesn't take any actual knowledge of horology for them to easily be swayed to those brand names.

Let's leave true modern horology excellence for the Next Generation of timepiece lovers who have years of investing the efforts into research, who wisely understand the skillset and passion of true horological excellence that moves the industry forward. Please leave true excellence to those who have deep knowledge and understanding of the craft, and above all an immense passion who keep these mechanical marvels close to our hearts, not as just another item of many on a cold-hearted financial balance sheet.

Thanks for your comments on this thread. Let's keep promoting the Holy Trinity so they can stay in their lane.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

I fell in love the moment I saw their new movement diagram years ago. Contacted them to ask about one of my crazy OCD possibilities. We agreed the efforts and costs would be a challenge. I've contacted a few manufacturers over the years about 'crazy ideas' that pop up in my mind.

Anywho....

Perhaps it's just me, yet my current feelings are to support PEOPLE who bring personal passion, incredible ingenuity, high quality, excellent customer service.... Kari is on the list, too, once his new gig solidifies.

Throw marketing hype aside, and instead show us step-by-step why your product deserves recognition.

If this is your criteria, most of the independents would be on the list and we will need a list of 10-20 and not three.

I have been watching a lot of YouTube videos on MB&F and the last one I saw with Max interviewing with Revolution came across as the most genuine of all of the watch related videos of any brands I have seen.

And just for the fun of this topic, here are my picks in the spirit of the above criteria:

Voutilainen
MB&F
FPJ
Rexhep Rexhepi (oooops, a fourth one sneaked in)

And does a Holy Trinity list matters? I don’t think any of us here make a decision based on if the watch is on a list. I love too many brands and crazy about a few and three seems to be too small of a list.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

In the 60ies both Patek and AP made around 10,000 watches a year judging by the sequential serial numbers. So still double what ALS makes today.

My personal view would be that today ALS must take AP’s spot among the top 3, but that, as I mentioned, kind of runs afoul of the argument that a trinity brand must produce a certain quantity, which I think should be a marker. Otherwise you have to add every one of the many talented independents and you’ll never credibly reduce those to only three.

Even if you discount the legacy entirely and make a spot measurement of a brand’s street cred at this very moment, you’d end up with more than three, if anything, doing so would be more favorable to AP, as the brand remains very popular despite the decline in quality of its baseline volume products.

I have just very recently acquired my first VC. So when I compare the PP, AP and VC in the similar price range, I would have to say the AP is definitely not quite in the same league as PP and VC. The finishing of the movement and reliability are both a little behind. (My ROO starts unreliably after put aside for a while and it is the only watch has this issue) And the VC was quite a pleasant surprise.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by llngoc

And does a Holy Trinity list matters? I don’t think any of us here make a decision based on if the watch is on a list.

They do. At this point am VERYmglad they do, too. I've come to the conclusion that newbies and lack-of-education folks fall for the 'low hanging fruit'. Trinity, hypebeast... as long as the herd mentality is satisfied.

Box and papers, bro!

So yes, let us keep them in their Trinity lane, as this lets true enthusiasts have proper access to the honest horological masterpieces.

Originally Posted by llngoc

...And the VC was quite a pleasant surprise.

VC is a great choice. Probably the only one of the old-school three still consistently producing high-quality products.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

VC is a great choice. Probably the only one of the old-school three still consistently producing high-quality products.

The dial and movement finish is definitely better than both PP and AP. The movement finish on our RO and ROO are really lacking and may be because we only have "entry" models? PP is okay but the VC CDV is definitely a lot more pleasant to stare at. It can be because it is a manual chronograph. Once I have a chance to take a close look at the PP 5172, I may be able to do a better comparison.

It seems like people also prefer the VC Overseas's movement finish to either a 5711 or 15202?

[Nachum]

I’d just like to observe that this is such a terrific thread. Many thanks to unknown and Nav01L for sharing their incisive commentary and insights into the penumbra of this world we all enjoy (albeit from a greater distance)!

[Paka]

Voutilainen
FP Journe
Lange

[Amateur]

PP, AP and VC, in that order on the podium, for me.

[Kigan]

Patek Philippe
Breguet
Urban Jurgensen

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

After much thought, sure, you classic guys win.

Let's keep the vintage Holy Trinity and only recommend those brand names so the uneducated, or easily convinced due to a lack of critical thinking skills, to stay within their lane. Those brands are what are popular, and it doesn't take any actual knowledge of horology for them to easily be swayed to those brand names.

Let's leave true modern horology excellence for the Next Generation of timepiece lovers who have years of investing the efforts into research, who wisely understand the skillset and passion of true horological excellence that moves the industry forward. Please leave true excellence to those who have deep knowledge and understanding of the craft, and above all an immense passion who keep these mechanical marvels close to our hearts, not as just another item of many on a cold-hearted financial balance sheet.

Thanks for your comments on this thread. Let's keep promoting the Holy Trinity so they can stay in their lane.

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

They do. At this point am VERYmglad they do, too. I've come to the conclusion that newbies and lack-of-education folks fall for the 'low hanging fruit'. Trinity, hypebeast... as long as the herd mentality is satisfied.

Box and papers, bro!

So yes, let us keep them in their Trinity lane, as this lets true enthusiasts have proper access to the honest horological masterpieces.

VC is a great choice. Probably the only one of the old-school three still consistently producing high-quality products.

Why are enthusiats who like Patek, AP and VC "uneducated", "easily convinced due to a lack of critical thinking skills", "newbies" and "lack-of-education"?

Please could you kindly explain?

[enjoythemusic]

Think about it.

And it's just my opinion.

Patek is not as respected by watchmakers as it once was. Why? Ask watchmakers you know and trust, report back. Seriously, ask a few and report back.

AP..... meh. Bvlgari is doing far more interesting development.

VC stays so OK I'm wrong there. Congrats, you 'got me there'. Guess one of the original three kept to quality and creativity.

So who fills the two empty spots. Seiko / Grand Seiko should be considered, perhaps? ALS seems a shoe-in. Your thoughts?

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Think about it.

And it's just my opinion.

Patek is not as respected by watchmakers as it once was. Why? Ask watchmakers you know and trust, report back. Seriously, ask a few and report back.

AP..... meh. Bvlgari is doing far more interesting development.

VC stays so OK I'm wrong there. Congrats, you 'got me there'. Guess one of the original three kept to quality and creativity.

So who fills the two empty spots. Seiko / Grand Seiko should be considered, perhaps? ALS seems a shoe-in. Your thoughts?

I have already provided my thoughts in post #6 and nothing changes. I don't have the habit of repeating my stance again and again...

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...61&postcount=6

Unfortunately I still don't see the link between your quoted reply vs my question to why enthusiasts who like Patek, AP and VC are "uneducated", "easily convinced due to a lack of critical thinking skills", "newbies" and "lack-of-education".

[enjoythemusic]

That's OK, sometimes not everyone understands my thought process. We're all good

I look forward to hear back from you about what a few independent watchmakers say. If I may suggest, have a nice chat with a few multi-brand repair centers.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

That's OK, sometimes not everyone understands my thought process. We're all good

I look forward to hear back from you about what a few independent watchmakers say. If I may suggest, have a nice chat with a few multi-brand repair centers.

I always bring my watches to their respective service centers for servicing. I don't have a multi-brand repairman to chat about Patek's quality (is that what you are trying to educate me about?)

Are you implying micro brands like MB&F and FPJ produce the highest quality watches, and their rate of failures or faults the lowest in the industry? Seems like it since you brought up multi-brand repair centers. I get the notion of quality from you, and Patek's quality is sub-par compared to MB&F and FPJ, if I may infer from your posts? Any data to back up these claims?

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Think about it.

And it's just my opinion.

Patek is not as respected by watchmakers as it once was. Why? Ask watchmakers you know and trust, report back. Seriously, ask a few and report back.

AP..... meh. Bvlgari is doing far more interesting development.

VC stays so OK I'm wrong there. Congrats, you 'got me there'. Guess one of the original three kept to quality and creativity.

So who fills the two empty spots. Seiko / Grand Seiko should be considered, perhaps? ALS seems a shoe-in. Your thoughts?

If you measure modern volume production Patek against Patek of old, you’re right, there is a decline and everyone who’s taken a few apart can tell you that. But if you compare Patek with other brands, I’m not so sure.

They make 60k watches a year, I know of no other brand that can do that at such a level of quality. And if you look at the compromises AP had to make to get to 50k, then what Patek is pulling off at scale is still quite impressive.

Now if you compare with brands that do between 100 and 1000 watches a year, to be fair, you can’t take a volume Patek that’s produced in higher annual numbers for that model alone, like an Aquanaut or a Calatrava. If you want to compare with those brands, you have to compare with watches that Patek makes in equally small numbers. And honestly, there, things at Patek don’t look too bad still. A 5270 holds up very well against any FPJ you throw at it, and so does a split second chrono, whether with or without calendar.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I always bring my watches to their respective service centers for servicing. I don't have a multi-brand repairman to chat about Patek's quality (is that what you are trying to educate me about?)

Are you implying micro brands like MB&F and FPJ produce the highest quality watches, and their rate of failures or faults the lowest in the industry? Seems like it since you brought up multi-brand repair centers. I get the notion of quality from you, and Patek's quality is sub-par compared to MB&F and FPJ, if I may infer from your posts? Any data to back up these claims?

In those spheres, “quality” relates to how laborious the execution of the movement is more so than how consistently it runs. In today’s world, you can assume they all are designed and constructed pretty well, or should be, and have, or should have, pretty similar rates of failure. Differentiators are the originality of the construction/layout/engineering of a movement and the beauty/sophistication/hand made nature of the decoration on the movement. And in that respect, it’s certainly true that at face value, an MB&F or a Journe are in a different world from a simple Aquanaut or even a volume complication like the Patek ACs. But as I argued above, those comparisons are not really fair.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I don't have a multi-brand repairman to chat about Patek's quality (is that what you are trying to educate me about?)

Ahh ok. Consider this an excellent opportunity to make friends with watchmakers. During the 3970er service many years ago I gifted PP USA repair center watchmakers a fine selection of Chef Payard's delicious creations as a show of thanks.

Are you implying micro brands like MB&F and FPJ produce the highest quality watches, and their rate of failures or faults the lowest in the industry?

Will allow longtime enthusiasts answer that question specifically if they so choose.

If i may add... There are quite a few brands that are doing truly exquisite work far beyond the Holy Trinity in the classic sense. This also begs the question if we're referring to the 'classic' build and decoration or the more modern interpretations of parts creation/build and decoration / style. Seems there are old-school admirers, while others desire something more modern and exciting... or a mix-and-match of the two.

Perhaps we're seeing an 'inflection point' of the two 'schools' of thought (old versus new) as we enter into the modern era of mechanical timepiece creation and implementation.

Since we're directing this at only two of MANY brands... Highly admire the classic beauty of FPJ, yet also very much respect MB&F for creating something far outside the norm. FPJ is playing an outstanding game of classic Chess, which i feel many agree easily betters Patek Philippe and many other brands.

Meanwhile, MB&F is playing 3D chess.

Originally Posted by Nav01L

If you measure modern volume production Patek against Patek of old, you’re right, there is a decline and everyone who’s taken a few apart can tell you that. But if you compare Patek with other brands, I’m not so sure. They make 60k watches a year, I know of no other brand that can do that at such a level of quality. And if you look at the compromises AP had to make to get to 50k, then what Patek is pulling off at scale is still quite impressive.

Agreed, at a mass-production scale Patek is doing fairly well. Yet ask yourself, is that what the Old Man would have done? How about Mr. Patek himself, would he have opted for higher production output, yet a reduction in build quality / handcraftsmanship? I've heard that way back when Czapek was considered the more talented of the two watchmakers.

If you want to compare with those brands, you have to compare with watches that Patek makes in equally small numbers. And honestly, there, things at Patek don’t look too bad still.

100% agree, if PP chooses to put in the effort and in-house/hire-out craftspeople, they can produce truly top-shelf build quality and classic decoration at the highest of levels (akin to FPJ). But ask yourself, why the difference in Patek quality within various models to begin with?

It is Patek Philippe that choose to mass-produce. Build quality is purely at their discretion. Am curious who chose this plan of action, and when that decision was made, and who agreed to what appears to be this new PP build quality tiered scheme. Why have different quality levels?

As best i can recall, it was not this way many years ago. Of course i could be wrong.

An interesting idea that just popped into my head, would you agree Patek Philippe should separate those 'Levels'. One Level is called their 'Enthusiast' line and that has typical modern PP quality (thanks to Thierry's choices). Then they have an 'Connoisseur' line where Patek adheres to creating the best possible timepiece they can without concerns for production output (as FPJ and others do today).

This new two-tier system may play best for Patek, too, as commercially it also brings their basic quality and brand name to Enthusiasts, yet for true Connoisseurs there's a classic highest-level of handcrafted quality PP originally built their reputation on decades ago (when unknown Emporers' chose the Old School 1960s Holy Trinity as decided upon by ??? and had 'rules' of build quality and reliability of ???? that so far not a single person has provided any info about).

Do you, by chance, know who choose the original Holy Trinity, and what 'rules' were in place at the time? This would be of immense help. Thansk you as all help is always appreciated.

Also, if I may humbly add, PP should provide a minimal 5-year warranty on Enthusiast pieces. Their Connoisseur product line should include an 8-year warranty as other brands do today. Overall, this is a win-win situation for timepiece enthusiasts, plus certain PP consumers may opt for the higher level as they desire high-quality levels as other independents provide today (and not be in a Lower Class of product).

Or go further, as Patek could break up the company into two distinct entities. One mass produces ~50,000 timepieces as they do today for the Enthusiast line. The spin-off brand produces less than 2000 pieces a year for the higher-end Connoisseur models. This sounds like something Thierry may approve, too, as it increases the perceived status of the brand name.

i look forward to your thoughts.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Ahh ok. Consider this an excellent opportunity to make friends with watchmakers. During the 3970er service many years ago I gifted PP USA repair center watchmakers a fine selection of Chef Payard's delicious creations as a show of thanks.




Will allow longtime enthusiasts answer that question specifically if they so choose.

If i may add... There are quite a few brands that are doing truly exquisite work far beyond the Holy Trinity in the classic sense. This also begs the question if we're referring to the 'classic' build and decoration or the more modern interpretations of parts creation/build and decoration / style. Seems there are old-school admirers, while others desire something more modern and exciting... or a mix-and-match of the two.

Perhaps we're seeing an 'inflection point' of the two 'schools' of thought (old versus new) as we enter into the modern era of mechanical timepiece creation and implementation.

Since we're directing this at only two of MANY brands... Highly admire the classic beauty of FPJ, yet also very much respect MB&F for creating something far outside the norm. FPJ is playing an outstanding game of classic Chess, which i feel many agree easily betters Patek Philippe and many other brands.

Meanwhile, MB&F is playing 3D chess.




Agreed, at a mass-production scale Patek is doing fairly well. Yet ask yourself, is that what the Old Man would have done? How about Mr. Patek himself, would he have opted for higher production output, yet a reduction in build quality / handcraftsmanship? I've heard that way back when Czapek was considered the more talented of the two watchmakers.




100% agree, if PP chooses to put in the effort and in-house/hire-out craftspeople, they can produce truly top-shelf build quality and classic decoration at the highest of levels (akin to FPJ). But ask yourself, why the difference in Patek quality within various models to begin with?

It is Patek Philippe that choose to mass-produce. Build quality is purely at their discretion. Am curious who chose this plan of action, and when that decision was made, and who agreed to what appears to be this new PP build quality tiered scheme. Why have different quality levels?

As best i can recall, it was not this way many years ago. Of course i could be wrong.

An interesting idea that just popped into my head, would you agree Patek Philippe should separate those 'Levels'. One Level is called their 'Enthusiast' line and that has typical modern PP quality (thanks to Thierry's choices). Then they have an 'Connoisseur' line where Patek adheres to creating the best possible timepiece they can without concerns for production output (as FPJ and others do today).

This new two-tier system may play best for Patek, too, as commercially it also brings their basic quality and brand name to Enthusiasts, yet for true Connoisseurs there's a classic highest-level of handcrafted quality PP originally built their reputation on decades ago (when unknown Emporers' chose the Old School 1960s Holy Trinity as decided upon by ??? and had 'rules' of build quality and reliability of ???? that so far not a single person has provided any info about).

Do you, by chance, know who choose the original Holy Trinity, and what 'rules' were in place at the time? This would be of immense help. Thansk you as all help is always appreciated.

Also, if I may humbly add, PP should provide a minimal 5-year warranty on Enthusiast pieces. Their Connoisseur product line should include an 8-year warranty as other brands do today. Overall, this is a win-win situation for timepiece enthusiasts, plus certain PP consumers may opt for the higher level as they desire high-quality levels as other independents provide today (and not be in a Lower Class of product).

Or go further, as Patek could break up the company into two distinct entities. One mass produces ~50,000 timepieces as they do today for the Enthusiast line. The spin-off brand produces less than 2000 pieces a year for the higher-end Connoisseur models. This sounds like something Thierry may approve, too, as it increases the perceived status of the brand name.

i look forward to your thoughts.

Very interesting points.

I wholeheartedly agree on the warranty.

As for the other points, my question would just be: why? I would argue they factually already have those two tiers, one they call “Complications”, and I will also count the very basic stuff into there and the other they call “Grandes Complications”, where they will do a perpetual with a chronograph, split seconds and chiming stuff.

Also, while they are very good on movement aesthetics, FPJ are really no measure of things in terms of finish quality.

More to the fundamental point though, why would you dilute the brand into two distinct lines or worse, two distinct brands?

Many many many people want a Patek and you can make a very successful brand out of catering to as many of them as the status and exclusivity of the brand will allow.

As you do that though, the overhead increases with the production, as does the market downturn risk. Watches are very exposed to people being happy and having money. As watches on that level have relatively long and expensive production process, you have to proportionally reduce overhead as you scale into numbers that may not always be sustainable, because if people don’t want the big numbers you’re producing at some point, you have all these people on your payroll that you spent years training for the job, not to mention the millions such training costs you). If you just do 1k watches a year, you’ll probably always find 1k people to buy them, and if not, you only have to fire 10-20 folks which you can probably replace. But as you try to do 60x that, that’s a lot more people you’ve invested into. So to remain resilient, you have to reduce cost and effort as you scale the numbers, it’s not linear.

As to just making less watches, sure, you could do that, but now you have all these folks on the payroll that we just discussed. Why play with their livelihoods just to soothe a few internet forum curmudgeons, while demand for the product you do make is impossible to satisfy?

[enjoythemusic]

Very good points.

The employment part, very broadly speaking, has been on my mind quite a bit recently. While AI, 3D printing, automation (Sisyem51), algos trading trillions in stock value/currency each day... The human side almost gets lost. I'd say more, yet that delves into music and boy can go on and on....

As for business operations, that's for Bean Counters configure out. Provide the space for craftspeople to fully realize their inspiration, without cost constraints. Sure, someone might have a 'crazy idea' that is not financially viable (ask me how I know as I literally am LOL'ing as some of my ideas...), yet there are areas where, dare we agree, improvements can be made. Costs are left to Bean Counters, and as an artist am sure you can guess i'mnnot a fan of them.

Let humans create and express themselves. If you claim to make the best, allow your highly-valued HUMAN assets the ability to....

As always, jmho.

PS: And yeah, as a geek side note probably unrelated except in my brain, as I watch the latest Star Wars spinoff the bar band has live creatures for all instruments, except only the drummer is a friggen robot.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Very good points.

The employment part, very broadly speaking, has been on my mind quite a bit recently. While AI, 3D printing, automation (Sisyem51), algos trading trillions in stock value/currency each day... The human side almost gets lost. I'd say more, yet that delves into music and boy can go on and on....

As for business operations, that's for Bean Counters configure out. Provide the space for craftspeople to fully realize their inspiration, without cost constraints. Sure, someone might have a 'crazy idea' that is not financially viable (ask me how I know as I literally am LOL'ing as some of my ideas...), yet there are areas where, dare we agree, improvements can be made. Costs are left to Bean Counters, and as an artist am sure you can guess i'mnnot a fan of them.

Let humans create and express themselves. If you claim to make the best, allow your highly-valued HUMAN assets the ability to....

As always, jmho.

PS: And yeah, as a geek side note probably unrelated except in my brain, as I watch the latest Star Wars spinoff the bar band has live creatures for all instruments, except only the drummer is a friggen robot.

I’m as much of a fan of creativity as you are and if it were only up to me, I’d just be traveling the world with a beaten up Leica trying to make meaningful moments into images people in the future can look at.

But the sad truth behind any art that endures is that - in order to do so - it has to be commercially successful.

The same is true with the art of proper watchmaking. And so the bean counters are ultimately who we have to thank for what we get to enjoy (same with movies and music too, without a proper producer, one will rarely get one’s art out there in front of enough people to be remembered).

I am so happy for all those independents that can exist off of 5 - 800 watches a year, but if you look back, that has only been possible for a very short time span. It’s a merit of the newfound ability to self publish your brand image on the internet.

Before the advent of Instagram and the new possibilities it gave all of us to communicate, you had to have a certain critical mass. Patek already did something around 10k watches annually in the 60ies, as did AP. And there’s a very good reason for that. So blaming them now for having gotten so large when that’s the only reason they’re still here seems a bit short sighted to me.

Also, you have to keep in mind that we always prepare to fight the next war with the last war’s weapons. That’s how folks ended up buried and asphyxiated in burning Maginot bunkers in the very early days of the war they had been built to avert. Meaning, the managements of big old companies will instinctively tend to do more of what made them successful in the past instead of nimbly preparing for the times they’re entering into. It’s only natural that Patek wants to continue growing and likewise, it’s inevitable that this is accompanied by compromises in the quality of their volume pieces.

But the question is, would FPJ fare better or worse if they scaled to that extent?
How about Kari?
Or Max?

My hunch is that few if any could do what Patek does at the size they have grown into, bean counters or not.

And for all others, that’s a very good reason to self restrict to the size they excel at. That’s why you don’t see higher numbers from VC (it’s darn hard as it is to uphold 20k watches a year at the level they execute them to), and that’s also why FPJ won’t do more than 8-900 serious watches per year (but have no problem making many more Elegances, which have very little to do with normal FPJ manufacturing).

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

And for all others, that’s a very good reason to self restrict to the size they excel at. That’s why you don’t see higher numbers from VC (it’s darn hard as it is to uphold 20k watches a year at the level they execute them to), and that’s also why FPJ won’t do more than 8-900 serious watches per year (but have no problem making many more Elegances, which have very little to do with normal FPJ manufacturing).

How many more Elegant is FPJ making? Trying to get a 40mm for my wife and it is also "impossible"...

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by llngoc

How many more Elegant is FPJ making? Trying to get a 40mm for my wife and it is also "impossible"...

I believe around 600 a year or so, though I’ve even heard numbers as high as 1500. Still not many in absolute numbers of course.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I’m as much of a fan of creativity as you are and if it were only up to me, I’d just be traveling the world with a beaten up Leica trying to make meaningful moments into images people in the future can look at.

How about we change the subject to vintage Summicron lenses

Which lens has the best Bokeh, etc. M3 versus.... and then talk about best film for landscapes versus portraits (loved Velvia back in the day, am utterly clueless on portraits).

Speaking if which, when the Czapek Monochrome comes I'm thinking about renting a Leica Monochrom for taking pics.


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Yes, you make many good points, yet why scale if the human talent necessary is not in place and at-the-ready? Agree with you, the larger a company grows the more risks it chooses to take on. Self-inflicted 'wounds' is no excuse if you are properly prepared. As you said, sometimes it is best to stay small and ensure quality.

If I was a guessing man, another art I love is Wellendoff cold enamel and seems they have chosen not to expand for good reason because imho they have some of the world's best... and have never heard them compromise in quality (and excellent customer service I might add).

I am so happy for all those independents that can exist off of 5 - 800 watches a year, but if you look back, that has only been possible for a very short time span. It’s a merit of the newfound ability to self-publish your brand image on the internet.

Yes, things are moving quite fast recently, aided by the Internet. Like you, am very happy, and I love these new directions in horology. The Internet makes me proud some days (and shake my head in disbelief on others). I find horology today very promising, and exciting!

Sure there are downsides such as growing pains (Ming), what happens if the key genius talented watchmaker suddenly dies, etc. I'm not overly concerned about parts and service since a human made it, then a human can fix/service it. Custom-made parts are getting easier to produce with each new tech advancement.

But the question is, would FPJ fare better or worse if they scaled to that extent?
How about Kari?
Or Max?

Excellent questions, and in the end i prefer 'better' rather than 'bigger'. Having both is not always a good thing. To do both well, that's quite tricky to do successfully. Imho staying small and nimble is best, have had friends grow too big too fast. Have seen 'competition' go big and create <cough> eTown </cough>, and burn millions in cash and crash (not due to a lack of vision or creativity, due to improper growth and financing decisions imho).

SIDE NOTE: Getting financing is easy, the trick is getting the 'right' financial backers / partners.

And for all others, that’s a very good reason to self restrict to the size they excel at. That’s why you don’t see higher numbers from VC (it’s darn hard as it is to uphold 20k watches a year at the level they execute them to), and that’s also why FPJ won’t do more than 8-900 serious watches per year (but have no problem making many more Elegances, which have very little to do with normal FPJ manufacturing).

Agree with the above, good points. In the end I'm VERY excited for the future of horology. And who knows, I hope a few more Rexhep Rexhepi watchmaker types appear... while Bvlgari goes thin (and tiny!), and FPJ finally decides to make a musical wrist masterpiece! (Ode To Joy)

(Please pardon my language) As for Max & Friends, dudes, keep that shit up

biglebowski3-1569441371-C55q-column-width-inline.jpg

[enjoythemusic]

PS: Max if you're reading this, would love to see MB&F X Wellendorff

Ok, perhaps not the below design, yet imagine the enamel possibilities!

https://www.wellendorff.com/en/jewel...f-the-year.php

aited.jpg

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

How about we change the subject to vintage Summicron lenses

Which lens has the best Bokeh, etc. M3 versus.... and then talk about best film for landscapes versus portraits (loved Velvia back in the day, am utterly clueless on portraits).

To be honest, I was born too late to really “get” the romance of the various directions you can go with color film, and getting into these after the fact seems like a bit of an artificial affection when you haven’t grown up with them natively. Same with vintage lenses.

I’m a simple man and I’m happy to live with what’s available in the time I live in. Also I’m not very colorful in my photography anyway. Give me an M6TTL and any v4 or v5 35mm cron and I will happily chump my way through some rolls of HP5 plus without complaining.

I don’t have much of a religious issue with using digital either, so my M10 is making me equally happy.

[nickorette]

Patek Philipe
A Lange & Söhne
FP Journe

Audemars Piguet while desirable is really just a one watch brand. They are also using movements made from other manufacturers now in some cases.

VC while built to a high standard, I personally find most of their offerings either uninspiring or contrived (enough with the Maltese cross references, jesus).

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

To be honest, I was born too late to really “get” the romance of the various directions you can go...

Ahhh cool. See, I also love the 'magic' of the darkroom too. Lots of fun and creativity lives there!!! Ah well, life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.

To be fair, digital image capturing in both hardware and file processing (Paint Shop Pro anyone?) has come a looooong way since the Kodak DC40.