15202ST 0944 vs. 1240 differences and variations

[dh1]

Hi folks,

Now that the 15202ST reference is "done", I was trying to collect some info about the different variants of the mainline steel reference (for now setting aside different metals like 15202PT or other limited variants).

You can see very plainly there's two demarcated generations ("collection number"?) with 0944 vs. 1240. But while you can find some good info about the 1240STs variations (e.g. MK1 / MK2 / MK3 dials... see below), I don't see much info / talk about the 0944ST variant even though it's also a 15202.

I feel like it might be the "black sheep" of the 15202s because the dial aesthetics aren't as nice (IMO), although it's the only 15202 you can get with a white dial AFAIK.

What follows is just some stream of consciousness info and some questions, since I'm nerdy and like to piece together info.

0944 basic info
* Dial: AP logo at 12, larger tapisserie, arabic numbers for 5 seconds around the outer rim. Date disk is not color matched.
* Dial codes: they made made 15202ST.OO.0944ST.01 / .02 and / .03. 1 is white, 2 and 3 are blue in different shades.
* Bracelet: single fold / single hinge.
* Rotor is more elaborate. Tim Mosso mentioned they gave customers the option of customizing the rotor since it was hand engraved.






1240 basic info
* Dial: AP logo at 6, smaller tapisserie, color matched date wheel. Purportedly this transition is when AP started making dials in house instead of contracting to Stern Créations.
* Dial codes: 01 / 01.A. blue only, although there are several changes in the shade of blue over time that aren't distinguished in the number.
* Bracelet: modern bifold clasp.
* Rotor is less elaborate.






1240 variation

• There was a great analysis of 15202ST dial variations on Time Tapestry blog. They produced a summary infographic:
  

• Various people have noted that AP transitioned from a monoblock case to a cheaper non-monoblock case sometime during the 1240 reference run. Tim Mosso on Watchbox said 2017, other sources say 2015-2016.

• One unanswered question I have is, "what is the difference between 15202ST.OO.1240ST.01 and 15202ST.OO.1240ST.01.A, if any?"

0944 variation

• This is where I can't really find too much info. It's obvious there are three dial color codes. Does anyone know if there are any key variations during the run?

• Does anyone know if the 1240ST bracelet can be attached to the 0944ST models if you like the bifold clasp better?

• I did find an interesting picture of a 0944 that was for sale that had AP at 12, but the tapisserie was the size of the 1240, and automatic is at 6 (which isn't like 0944). I wonder if this could be a 5402ST service dial (for the late C or D series with AP @ 12), because it matches the aesthetics. Or does anyone know if service dials for 15202 0944 look like this? Because it's way better looking IMO than the original 0944 dial.

[illiguy]

Nice work. I prefer the dial aesthetic of the Mark III.

[watchguy1234]

Removed

[arnage]

on the 1240, the interior clasp design was also changed mid-run. as there were issues with the screws coming out (resulting in the clasp pushers coming detached).

and yes, as mentioned the monoblock case did go away mid-run too. it should be easy to tell from the back-quarter angle of the watchhead.

[Dave from NYC]

To the OP, I can't even tell you how much I like this post. Your "nerdy," awesome post... I really appreciate how thoughtful and interesting it is - as a fellow AP fanboy.

Anyone else miss posts like these? So often it's "how often should I text my SA?" or "Is this a good investment?"

I feel like this post represents the type of content I love to see from my fellow watch lovers.

Thanks!

[theflywrist]

Nice post OP. I believe on that last example, as you've suspected, it is a dial from an earlier reference.

A dealer also had one for sale not long ago, it had the original MK 1 dial along with a similar one as photographed on the pic you posted installed.



I own the 0944 version.

While I love all iterations of the jumbo (the 5402 the most), there are certain features that I LOVE about the 0944 that the later version lack, and similarly I love certain characteristics about the later variants that the earlier ones lack.



Overall the 0944 (and this is alot easier to recognize in the flesh), sits alot alot more refined and is alot "quieter". The bracelet is slimmer and more refined, and it doesn't shine the same way a modern RO bracelet would.

If you've ever tried a 5402, it would feel the same.



The dial on the MK 1 15202 is a lot less striking. It is without a doubt a much quieter iteration of a 15202

Lastly, the rotor looks alot better.



In an ideal world I wish I had picked up a jubilee edition 14802. I find that it is the best balance.

Always imagined I would buy a salmon version some day, but unfortunately the prices have taken off far too much.

[dh1]

@Dave from NYC, thank you!! Your post definitely made me smile this morning!

Originally Posted by theflywrist

Overall the 0944 (and this is alot easier to recognize in the flesh), sits alot alot more refined and is alot "quieter". The bracelet is slimmer and more refined, and it doesn't shine the same way a modern RO bracelet would.

That's interesting! I knew the 0944 bracelet had a different clasp but I didn't know it was slimmer.

One of my unresolved questions is whether the 1240ST bracelet can be attached to the 0944ST models or vice versa? Anyone know? Not sure if it would look "off" though.

Originally Posted by theflywrist

In an ideal world I wish I had picked up a jubilee edition 14802. I find that it is the best balance.
Always imagined I would buy a salmon version some day, but unfortunately the prices have taken off far too much.

Yes, I think the 14802 is great and it was undervalued for a long time.

However, one potential consideration for me is the following: other than the special dials colors (salmon and the rare custom Yves Klein 14802ST), from the front the 14802ST looks almost identical to a 5402ST MK2 dial (AP @ 12) visually. You could tell the difference by seeing the display back, of course.

Unless you are a completist, if you already have a 5402 the 14802 would be somewhat redundant visually, while the 15202 would stand out as distinct.

The Swiss vs. "Swiss Made" gives away which one is the 5402 vs. 14802 in the pictures below

[theflywrist]

Originally Posted by dh1

@Dave from NYC, thank you!! Your post definitely made me smile this morning!


That's interesting! I knew the 0944 bracelet had a different clasp but I didn't know it was slimmer.

One of my unresolved questions is whether the 1240ST bracelet can be attached to the 0944ST models or vice versa? Anyone know? Not sure if it would look "off" though.


Yes, I think the 14802 is great and it was undervalued for a long time.

However, one potential consideration for me is the following: other than the special dials colors (salmon and the rare custom Yves Klein 14802ST), from the front the 14802ST looks almost identical to a 5402ST MK2 dial (AP @ 12) visually. You could tell the difference by seeing the display back, of course.

Unless you are a completist, if you already have a 5402 the 14802 would be somewhat redundant visually, while the 15202 would stand out as distinct.

The Swiss vs. "Swiss Made" gives away which one is the 5402 vs. 14802 in the pictures below

Hey. I added some photos to contribute to my previous post.

I will try and find out if the bracelet change is do-able.

I have a friend that did install a modern (1240st) bracelet into a 5402. They should all be interchangeable. Even my 15305 bracelet should fit into the 15202, but that would look odd IMO. The 15305 bracelet is ALOT thicker than the 15202.

As for the jubilee edition, agree 100% that they were sleepers ,but then again, the entire RO line up was (including QPs up until very recently).
It's all relative though. They were sleeping compared to todays prices, but it was nowhere near normal to pay $100K for an ultra thin or 5711, etc.

[dh1]

Originally Posted by theflywrist

I have a friend that did install a modern (1240st) bracelet into a 5402. They should all be interchangeable. Even my 15305 bracelet should fit into the 15202, but that would look odd IMO. The 15305 bracelet is ALOT thicker than the 15202.

I assumed the 15305 was highly related to the 15300, given they share the common 1220ST fragment and the 153XX prefix; if that's the case it makes sense that the bracelet is a lot thicker because the 15300 is chunky and thick compared to the "ultra thin" jumbos. I wasn't sure if the bracelets could interoperate.

Jealous of your 15305! The 41mm skeleton wouldn't fit my wrist and I almost pulled the trigger on a 1530 over a year ago (and 50% of the current market price) and kicking myself. Actually I'm kicking myself for every RO purchase I considered... 15202 at 44k, 55k, 65k, ... 80k, .... 15400 at 25k, ... sigh.

[theflywrist]

Originally Posted by dh1

I assumed the 15305 was highly related to the 15300, given they share the common 1220ST fragment and the 153XX prefix; if that's the case it makes sense that the bracelet is a lot thicker because the 15300 is chunky and thick compared to the "ultra thin" jumbos. I wasn't sure if the bracelets could interoperate.

Jealous of your 15305! The 41mm skeleton wouldn't fit my wrist and I almost pulled the trigger on a 1530 over a year ago (and 50% of the current market price) and kicking myself. Actually I'm kicking myself for every RO purchase I considered... 15202 at 44k, 55k, 65k, ... 80k, .... 15400 at 25k, ... sigh.

Yes exactly. the 1530x are the same family, share the same bracelets, and definitely alot chunkier than the 15202 bracelets of all generations.

I totally hear you man. I was going to go grey on the 15202OR early in 21 around about when I got my skeleton. They were in the mid 70s range, but I thought I would be able to get it from an AD..
How wrong I was.
No complaints though. I have alot of what I would not be able to buy today, and as much as I hate how its become, I'm grateful for what I do own.

[charlie2888]

I have never seen anyone mention this but also have noticed that around the same time that case construction went from monobloc to tripartite, the engraving on the balance cock disappeared. You can see this in the movement pictures above from the 944 and 1240 case backs. I have always been a bit perplexed by this but assume this was another cost cutting measure making movement production/decoration less ornate?

[dh1]

Originally Posted by charlie2888

I have never seen anyone mention this but also have noticed that around the same time that case construction went from monobloc to tripartite, the engraving on the balance cock disappeared. You can see this in the movement pictures above from the 944 and 1240 case backs. I have always been a bit perplexed by this but assume this was another cost cutting measure making movement production/decoration less ornate?

Very interesting! Thanks for pointing out that detail.

Just to double check, are you referring to this engraving?

[charlie2888]

Originally Posted by dh1

Very interesting! Thanks for pointing out that detail.

Just to double check, are you referring to this engraving?

Yes - exactly. Take a look at the tripartite casebacks. It's gone!

[Cabaiguan]

Great post.

[Qimchi]

This post is refreshing. Especially since nowadays the conversation with my "watch" friends are always circling around "value"

8 years ago, 50% of the forum-er will say nautilus is ugly. Now, 99.99% will say its the most beautiful watch ever!

I too believe Jack Ma is definitely consider as handsome ever since he became rich.

[Sho-nuff]

Originally Posted by Dave from NYC

To the OP, I can't even tell you how much I like this post. Your "nerdy," awesome post... I really appreciate how thoughtful and interesting it is - as a fellow AP fanboy.

Anyone else miss posts like these? So often it's "how often should I text my SA?" or "Is this a good investment?"

I feel like this post represents the type of content I love to see from my fellow watch lovers.

Thanks!

Great post by the OP and you also make a very good observation.

I remember that this type of in-depth post and technical information was very frequent on the old AP Purists forum. The moderator was good friends with AP headquarters, and shared the most fascinating insights with us, and the forum had an encyclopedic knowledge of the obscure, technical details of each AP model.

Combined with the demise of the Royal Oak Club, there is a giant information and knowledge gap compared to 10 years ago.

[gregouille]

I find that the MKIII dial is insane in real life. Also the bracelet does shine more.
Makes the last version of 15202st a much more luxury watch than the previous version IMHO.

[uniqueMR]

Very interesting, thanks for info!

[underpar31009]

Originally Posted by gregouille

I find that the MKIII dial is insane in real life. Also the bracelet does shine more.
Makes the last version of 15202st a much more luxury watch than the previous version IMHO.

Could not agree more!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dr.ns23]

Originally Posted by charlie2888

I have never seen anyone mention this but also have noticed that around the same time that case construction went from monobloc to tripartite, the engraving on the balance cock disappeared. You can see this in the movement pictures above from the 944 and 1240 case backs. I have always been a bit perplexed by this but assume this was another cost cutting measure making movement production/decoration less ornate?

Can you (or other forum members) please explain more what a tripartite case is? Is there any picture that explains it and shows the difference with the monobloc case?
I have the 15202st J serial and after reading this thread I found out about the change in case construction but couldn’t really know if my watch is monobloc or tripartite.
Thanks for the help and for this informative thread!

[charlie2888]

Originally Posted by dr.ns23

Can you (or other forum members) please explain more what a tripartite case is? Is there any picture that explains it and shows the difference with the monobloc case?
I have the 15202st J serial and after reading this thread I found out about the change in case construction but couldn’t really know if my watch is monobloc or tripartite.
Thanks for the help and for this informative thread!

Here's a video showing/describing the monobloc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tBd1y5T8M&t=47s

and here's one showing tripartite (you can see the seam):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrF6NkAmaMQ


Also, on another note - check out that dial in the first video! Looks more like a vintage dial/font than any dial I have seen on a 15202. Anyone have any intel on this dial?

[illiguy]

I imagine the early run, monobloc cases and the 2021 15202s will be the most collectible STs

[Animo Felonico]

I echo the earlier comments that this is exactly the type of nerdy WIS content that used to fill the forums, before every thread was about the politics of buying at retail and the price of buying from greys.

Thanks for posting!

[dh1]

Originally Posted by charlie2888

Here's a video showing/describing the monobloc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tBd1y5T8M&t=47s

and here's one showing tripartite (you can see the seam):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrF6NkAmaMQ


Also, on another note - check out that dial in the first video! Looks more like a vintage dial/font than any dial I have seen on a 15202. Anyone have any intel on this dial?

Very interesting find! This is the stuff that I love to analyze.

It almost looks to me like it could be 5402ST "AP @ 6" service dial that was produced recently. The tapisserie square size in the 5402 dial is a bit smaller than the 15202.




HQ Milton had sold a 2002 15202ST 0944 with a 5402 service dial installed, and it looks very similar to the mystery dial in the watchbox review except it is much more of the darker "charcoal" or grey vs. a blue:
https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...nd-papers-6446

[dr.ns23]

Originally Posted by charlie2888

Here's a video showing/describing the monobloc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tBd1y5T8M&t=47s

and here's one showing tripartite (you can see the seam):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrF6NkAmaMQ


Also, on another note - check out that dial in the first video! Looks more like a vintage dial/font than any dial I have seen on a 15202. Anyone have any intel on this dial?

Thank you very much for your reply and for posting the links for these videos. I didn’t know there was a difference in the cases before reading this thread. And I can see the difference clearly in both videos.

I just checked my watch and I believe it is a monobloc case, right? For info, I purchased it in June 2016 and it is a J serial


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jsol]

Is it too early to nominate this for best post of 2022?? So happy to see "nerdy" content. Thank you DH1!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[charlie2888]

Originally Posted by dh1

Very interesting find! This is the stuff that I love to analyze.

It almost looks to me like it could be 5402ST "AP @ 6" service dial that was produced recently. The tapisserie square size in the 5402 dial is a bit smaller than the 15202.




HQ Milton had sold a 2002 15202ST 0944 with a 5402 service dial installed, and it looks very similar to the mystery dial in the watchbox review except it is much more of the darker "charcoal" or grey vs. a blue:
https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...nd-papers-6446

So is this the kind of thing I could ask AP to do? Replace my standard 2020 15202 dial with a 5402 service dial? I much prefer the font and overall look of the 5402 dial to the more modern version.

[dh1]

Originally Posted by charlie2888

So is this the kind of thing I could ask AP to do? Replace my standard 2020 15202 dial with a 5402 service dial? I much prefer the font and overall look of the 5402 dial to the more modern version.

I don't know if AP would do it today. I'd love to hear if anyone knows whether they would do this officially.

From my (few) interactions, I get the impression they are much stricter today with:
A) all 5402 parts in general
B) all dials / dial swaps

I sent in an inquiry about dial swaps on my 15300ST and they said: "We do not return dials. Should you wish to change the color of the dial, we will store the current dial here under your name and repair number in case you would ever want [it back]."

I've seen various 15202 mods because the jumbo dials are mostly interchangeable (5402, 14802, 15002 and 15202 in theory), but maybe AP was less strict before? Or maybe you just need to keep asking until someone says yes?

[Dhubby]

Are the dial variations largely between Mark I vs II vs III as noted above?

Or within Mark III, there are variations in the blue too?

I'm seeing a few examples from 2015 which have the monoblock case and the Mark III dial. Curious if the blue would be different than say a later 2020/2021 model Mark III dial.

Also, for those who have handled / shopped more Jumbos -- any noticeable differences in quality / steel / etc between earlier models and later? For example, we know they changed from monoblock to tri-part. But that aside... would the 2015 bracelet feel basically same as the 2020 ones?