1675 Getting the Full Treatment at LAWW

[2th_doc]

Without pictures it didn’t happen.




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[PVR]

ha ha..

I just posted the before pics and I will post the during to show the actual weld on the lugs and then I will show the after.

Then your jaws will drop, my PM box will be full and I wont respond to requests to do your lugs which I know are inevitably going to come..

Just letting you guys know that this is done every single day to watches with asymmetrical lugs to correct overpolishing. On this particular case, the lug holes will also need to be redrilled because of the amount of material that needs to be added.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by PVR

ha ha..

I just posted the before pics and I will post the during to show the actual weld on the lugs and then I will show the after.

Then your jaws will drop, my PM box will be full and I wont respond to requests to do your lugs which I know are inevitably going to come..

Just letting you guys know that this is done every single day to watches with asymmetrical lugs to correct overpolishing. On this particular case, the lug holes will also need to be redrilled because of the amount of material that needs to be added.

I have seen specialists over seas post pictures of their process for case repair/correction using lasers. I have even seen one going as far as laser welding the chamfer area and then re-cutting a fresh sharp chamfer with great looking results.

Many here in the states will fill deep gashes in cases with lasers, but as far as the people I have talked to about it, including LAWW, they will not use their laser to build out thin lugs. It must be for good reason to, aside from time consuming. They will however repair other damages using their laser.

I'm sure that anything can be done out there, but with what kind of end result?

I did state, it would also take forever for a single lug to be rebuilt. From what I have seen, the laser spot welds such small areas at a time, like the size of pin dots..

The only way I can imagine it being done for everything to blend is to add metal to the entire case side, because if just doing one lug, their will be high spots to the metal surface when comparing to the rest of the case side. So the entire case side must have metal added to it correct? For one lug to evenly flow to the other? Basically the entire case would have to be re-shaped after, filing, sanding, lapping, buffing? This is the only way I can see it being done.

If you had the machines that LAWW have, that would cut through a lot of time to give the case a complete recut after welding with much more precise results, when compared to hand work.

Now that you have posted before shots, it's obvious that you cannot leave us hanging without after shots as well as some shots of the laser welded case before a lap/polish run.

[PVR]

I would not leave you hanging, but as I said it is time consuming so here is the "during" shots. It is layer upon layer of weld then removal and adding more. I will save us all the repetitive nature of the photos, but here are all 4 lugs welded in the during stage. Again, this is done over and over so the last set of pics will be the final result..

Here ya go..

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by PVR

I would not leave you hanging, but as I said it is time consuming so here is the "during" shots. It is layer upon layer of weld then removal and adding more. I will save us all the repetitive nature of the photos, but here are all 4 lugs welded in the during stage. Again, this is done over and over so the last set of pics will be the final result..

Here ya go..

Can’t wait to see more pics and the finished results. Thanks for sharing. Now I have seen it all! Also makes me even more concerned of the minefield that vintage collecting has become.

[smokd]

I’m really glad this sparked a good conversation. I’m also really excited to see the finished results of that Daytona, PVR. Please share when it’s finished!


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[PVR]

Subking: Im kind of insulted by that last comment:

"makes me even more concerned of the minefield that vintage collecting has become."

Is this in someway dishonest or shady? Why is a person who owns a watch that wants the lugs returned to factory spec in any way creating a minefield?

Would anyone of us prefer thin overpolished original pencil lugs to lasered thick and full lugs? The case is original rolex. The numbers arent being re-engraved or altered. The case was horrible and unsightly. To spend the money and time getting them thick and full is "unethical"? So, the owner should not buy a flawless watch because the case is overpolished or perhaps he should live with it being destroyed when he has the means and ability to restore it?

Please explain...

[dbhak22]

Originally Posted by PVR

Subking: Im kind of insulted by that last comment:

"makes me even more concerned of the minefield that vintage collecting has become."

Is this in someway dishonest or shady? Why is a person who owns a watch that wants the lugs returned to factory spec in any way creating a minefield?

Would anyone of us prefer thin overpolished original pencil lugs to lasered thick and full lugs? The case is original rolex. The numbers arent being re-engraved or altered. The case was horrible and unsightly. To spend the money and time getting them thick and full is "unethical"? So, the owner should not buy a flawless watch because the case is overpolished or perhaps he should live with it being destroyed when he has the means and ability to restore it?

Please explain...

I understand both sides...and to help explain where I think Subking is coming from, it's that there are examples of vintage Rolexes (some VERY pricey) where the condition (specifically the case) is described as "mint", "like new", etc...but has been refinished. I think a case refinishing should be disclosed. There are some that prefer to keep it original (regardless of condition) and some that would prefer to have a refinished case (as long as it's been disclosed).

I think the "minefield" is that as more and more vintage pieces get this treatment and switch owners...the provenance/history of any work that may have been done gets lost. So a refinished case from years ago that was worn well so shows some signs of wear but still has a very thick case could very well pass as "untouched" when in fact it was refinished. And unlike re-lume jobs, dial refinishes, etc., I'm not sure if there is a way for us collectors to tell if a case has been refinished?

It's like CARFAX. If a car has been in an accident and repaired to factory spec, it's all documented and should be disclosed during a sale. I think in the end, with the number of vintage pieces out there changing hands and technology available to improve condition (since it dramatically impacts value), it's all about transparency and having as close to an honest history about any piece out there.

[1675-David]

there is nothing ethically wrong with pimping your watch, but falsely representing a watch when selling is unethical. This kind of repair work could give unscrupulous sellers the opportunity to misrepresent a watch thus making the buying of a vintage piece even more of a risk for those of us untrained in spotting the work of a skilled craftsman wielding a laser...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by PVR

Subking: Im kind of insulted by that last comment:

"makes me even more concerned of the minefield that vintage collecting has become."

Is this in someway dishonest or shady? Why is a person who owns a watch that wants the lugs returned to factory spec in any way creating a minefield?

Would anyone of us prefer thin overpolished original pencil lugs to lasered thick and full lugs? The case is original rolex. The numbers arent being re-engraved or altered. The case was horrible and unsightly. To spend the money and time getting them thick and full is "unethical"? So, the owner should not buy a flawless watch because the case is overpolished or perhaps he should live with it being destroyed when he has the means and ability to restore it?

Please explain...

I think you are too easily insulted when my comment was not directed towards you in any way.

Not only did I thank you for posting the pics, but I also said that I look forward to the finished result. Some how, you took offense all because I said collecting has become a minefield?

There is nothing wrong with restoring a case. I was simply trying to say that I'm sure this process is being done to vintage pieces more than we know around the world....
Your post proves it can be done with supposedly amazing results, which means, god only knows which pieces out there are being sold as fat unpolished cases, when they could have been over polished cases to begin with.

Vintage collecting has become a minefield for sure because some people around the world are finding more and more ways of passing off unoriginal pieces as original and getting the premiums they seek. If it's baking dials to make them tropical, creating fake papers, lasering cases, its all an effort to make a piece look more appealing.

If this further offends you, then I don't know what to tell you?
Hopefully you will get over it soon.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by dbhak22

I understand both sides...and to help explain where I think Subking is coming from, it's that there are examples of vintage Rolexes (some VERY pricey) where the condition (specifically the case) is described as "mint", "like new", etc...but has been refinished. I think a case refinishing should be disclosed. There are some that prefer to keep it original (regardless of condition) and some that would prefer to have a refinished case (as long as it's been disclosed).

I think the "minefield" is that as more and more vintage pieces get this treatment and switch owners...the provenance/history of any work that may have been done gets lost. So a refinished case from years ago that was worn well so shows some signs of wear but still has a very thick case could very well pass as "untouched" when in fact it was refinished. And unlike re-lume jobs, dial refinishes, etc., I'm not sure if there is a way for us collectors to tell if a case has been refinished?

It's like CARFAX. If a car has been in an accident and repaired to factory spec, it's all documented and should be disclosed during a sale. I think in the end, with the number of vintage pieces out there changing hands and technology available to improve condition (since it dramatically impacts value), it's all about transparency and having as close to an honest history about any piece out there.

+1 well put

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by SubKing

+1 well put

+2 I agree 110%.I looked for a long Time and paid up for my Watches with fat untouched Cases,The recut cases are very easy to spot though even when the Seller claims "NOS" Unpolished condition...

[PVR]

I cannot speak for all collectors, but I can speak for myself. I can tell you that there isnt a vintage restored case that has been welded or recut that I cannot tell has been recut. Now the snarky answer is "well if its been done so well then you wouldnt be able to tell, you can only tell the bad ones". Not true.

In order for a case to be welded it needs to be polished. You cannot remove a weld without polishing the case or leaving unusual brush wheel marks in the steel from the tools used to remove steel weld.

So, when you state that there are unscrupulous people selling lasered and recut cases as original, then YES there are. But if you arent educated enough to make that determination then you should be paying one of the many dealers out there to VET the piece for you so you dont get fooled.

How many inserts are represented as Fat Font when they are not?
How many Tropic Crystals are represented as OEM and they are not?
How many dials and hands are "100% original" but clearly relumed?

It goes on and on in every facet of the collecting process. Not a single part from a second hand to a crown isnt counterfeited, so if you dont have the knowledge to know whats real or not then you are rolling the dice and guessing.

Back to the cases.. If they have ever seen a wheel then you can always tell that it isnt unpolished. Once it hits a wheel that dull worn steel look is gone for at least another 10 years so, no one is passing off a lasered refinished case as unpolished to me or any one I know who collects big dollar pieces..

AND I have seen all of the tricks in the book that rep guys do to make a case look old and they dont reproduce the wear the same way as the original wear.

When this case is done it will have NOS fat lugs and the Daytonas have no chamfer so its even harder to tell but, it will be polished and that cant be avoided.

[twnturbo]

wow

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by PVR

I cannot speak for all collectors, but I can speak for myself. I can tell you that there isnt a vintage restored case that has been welded or recut that I cannot tell has been recut. Now the snarky answer is "well if its been done so well then you wouldnt be able to tell, you can only tell the bad ones". Not true.

In order for a case to be welded it needs to be polished. You cannot remove a weld without polishing the case or leaving unusual brush wheel marks in the steel from the tools used to remove steel weld.

So, when you state that there are unscrupulous people selling lasered and recut cases as original, then YES there are. But if you arent educated enough to make that determination then you should be paying one of the many dealers out there to VET the piece for you so you dont get fooled.

How many inserts are represented as Fat Font when they are not?
How many Tropic Crystals are represented as OEM and they are not?
How many dials and hands are "100% original" but clearly relumed?

It goes on and on in every facet of the collecting process. Not a single part from a second hand to a crown isnt counterfeited, so if you dont have the knowledge to know whats real or not then you are rolling the dice and guessing.

Back to the cases.. If they have ever seen a wheel then you can always tell that it isnt unpolished. Once it hits a wheel that dull worn steel look is gone for at least another 10 years so, no one is passing off a lasered refinished case as unpolished to me or any one I know who collects big dollar pieces..

AND I have seen all of the tricks in the book that rep guys do to make a case look old and they dont reproduce the wear the same way as the original wear.

When this case is done it will have NOS fat lugs and the Daytonas have no chamfer so its even harder to tell but, it will be polished and that cant be avoided.

Switch to decaf, it tastes just as good as the real thing...

[dbhak22]

Interesting comment. If I may, I'd like to respond to some of your points. And full disclosure, I am no "expert" or "trusted seller", etc...but I believe I come from where most/many of us on this forum come from: we have our day jobs (or are retired), watches are a hobby and we get most of our knowledge from forums/internet and books. In other words, those that are in the trade (dealers, jewelers, watchmakers, restorers, etc.) are fewer.

Now that being said, my responses:

Originally Posted by PVR

I cannot speak for all collectors, but I can speak for myself. I can tell you that there isnt a vintage restored case that has been welded or recut that I cannot tell has been recut. Now the snarky answer is "well if its been done so well then you wouldnt be able to tell, you can only tell the bad ones". Not true.

How? And I'm not talking about when it's fresh out of the shop when there isn't a single hairline while the dial/hands/etc. are much aged.

Originally Posted by PVR

In order for a case to be welded it needs to be polished. You cannot remove a weld without polishing the case or leaving unusual brush wheel marks in the steel from the tools used to remove steel weld.

So, when you state that there are unscrupulous people selling lasered and recut cases as original, then YES there are. But if you arent educated enough to make that determination then you should be paying one of the many dealers out there to VET the piece for you so you dont get fooled.

I don't think that is fair. If you do your research, there are posts/information out there to help folks do their due diligence and determine how to vet most aspects...and it may not be perfect but at least it's out there. For cases and work like this that is being discussed here? Not so much. Also, it is these dealers you refer to that are the ones selling these! some call it "spa treatment", etc. I see relumes, hand coloring, and 'newer parts' being disclosed but have yet to see these dealers disclose that a case has been lasered and recut.

Originally Posted by PVR

How many inserts are represented as Fat Font when they are not?
How many Tropic Crystals are represented as OEM and they are not?
How many dials and hands are "100% original" but clearly relumed?

But does that make it right? NO. Also, as I mentioned above, some of this happens. But when it comes to cases and laser/recuts, I have yet to see it being disclosed.

Originally Posted by PVR

It goes on and on in every facet of the collecting process. Not a single part from a second hand to a crown isnt counterfeited, so if you dont have the knowledge to know whats real or not then you are rolling the dice and guessing.

Back to the cases.. If they have ever seen a wheel then you can always tell that it isnt unpolished. Once it hits a wheel that dull worn steel look is gone for at least another 10 years so, no one is passing off a lasered refinished case as unpolished to me or any one I know who collects big dollar pieces..

AND I have seen all of the tricks in the book that rep guys do to make a case look old and they dont reproduce the wear the same way as the original wear.

Once again, HOW? Help others "see" what you can see and so we can be better educated. Also, as more and more cases get lasered/recut...and switch owners...and get naturally worn...years from now how would one be able to tell? I would guess that you won't be able to. In other words, how will you be able to tell the difference between a true barely worn and 100% original 1680 from 1979 vs. a 1680 from 1979 that was lasered/recut in 2005 and worn everyday since?

Originally Posted by PVR

When this case is done it will have NOS fat lugs and the Daytonas have no chamfer so its even harder to tell but, it will be polished and that cant be avoided.

"NOS"? I don't think that term should be used in this case (no pun intended). To use the car analogy again, a car that was in an accident and fully repaired to factory spec should never be called "NOS" or "Factory Fresh", etc.

[bncapass1]

Is there a link or contact for LAWW somone can post? I have a 1970 GMT 1675 that had service dial and hands installed https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=332672 by the previous owner however he was smart enough to retain the original tritium dial and hands which I received in the purchase. I want to put it back to original and the dial has tritium smearing all over so it sounds like something LAWW would be best to handle.

[nfranco]

http://www.lawatchworks.com

Originally Posted by bncapass1

Is there a link or contact for LAWW somone can post? I have a 1970 GMT 1675 that had service dial and hands installed https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=332672 by the previous owner however he was smart enough to retain the original tritium dial and hands which I received in the purchase. I want to put it back to original and the dial has tritium smearing all over so it sounds like something LAWW would be best to handle.

[bncapass1]

Originally Posted by nfranco

http://www.lawatchworks.com

[ArthurB]

I wish an overpolished lug could be thickened. I can think of 5 watches I'd buy today if that was the case. No pun.

[Boaters]

Very nice they do outstanding work!

[simplymod]

Beau and Edvie are the best. If you want the best service and work, look no further.

[18●20●22●▼●2●4●6]

I worked for an eyewear company that is famous for injection molded frames. The first time I saw laser welding, I can't believe my eyes. The weld was put onto the edge of a razor blade... We sometimes need to laser weld to repair or modify molds... It is a true art form... And those tips and tricks; only one I was allowed to know if that "the parts need to get heated" to weld so that once polished old steel and new steel has same textures...

You guys are real artists!

Originally Posted by PVR

Subking: You couldnt be more wrong. I have lugs laser welded to be thicker on a weekly basis. In fact, I am welding the lugs of a Paul Newman case tomorrow. I am very tempted to post before and after pictures of the lugs but, blur out the serial, because I doubt the watch owner would want that info out there. These lugs are so thin and will be so fat that it would be a great sticky.

It can be done, it IS done. The reason why most of the major shops wont do it is because it is very time consuming. It also inevitably causes porosity in the steel from the entry of oxygen into the weld. This requires many trips back to the laser welder to weld, then lapping machine to lap, then polishing machine to polish, then back to the laser again to correct porosity and so on and so on..

Stainless cases from Rolex are cast from molten steel so there is little to no porosity in the material initially.

PS: Please do not PM me and ask me to do your lugs, I will not respond. The watches I do are for my own collection or for fellow collectors who I am friends with that require my help. Please, my work is not for hire for any price :)

Let me also add that nobody I know can refinish a case like LAWW. Their work far exceeds that of ABC and that is my opinion of course..

[inadeje]

Originally Posted by smokd

Revisiting this thread as the topic of recutting cases was brought up recently and I had completely forgotten to share the photos of the completed work done at LAWW (things got crazy at work the last couple of months). Without further ado, my completed 1675.


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That is truly stunning. Would have liked to have seen a before/after montage

[Franks07]

Great result. Beau is as good as anyone on the planet at Rolex case polishing and restoration. Enjoy that beauty in good health.


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[Franks07]

Originally Posted by simplymod

Beau and Edvie are the best. If you want the best service and work, look no further.

Couldn’t agree more. Great guys too!


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[twnturbo]

Gorgeous

[oysterquartz17000]

wow, amazing work!