Thoughts on Gilt Dial Longevity

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

those "blisters" are just re-spray that wasnt uniform and has dried like that.

If you could share some pics referring to your watch with similar effect that would be helpful of course

my watch is a matte dial 5513 from the 70’s. It’s supposed to have a texture... It is also a completely different watch from a different period so not sure why you want to compare a matte dial to a gilt dial..?

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by themaninblack

Interesting. I will take a dissenting view here to some. I think it is unlikely that this watch has been re-sprayed.

I own quite a few gilt dial Rolex watches from between 1958 and 1966. At least two of them show dial deterioration characteristics that are consistent and very similar to the OP's watch. One of them, a 5513, has unquestionable provenance and service history because it was purchased new by my father in 1964. The bubbling and rippling that you see on these dials happens quite often but is sometimes only visible in the right light and at the right angle of view and magnification. Sometimes it is worse and is the precursor to quite serious deterioration and breakdown of the surface.

The OP's watch has very good sharp clean coronet and print, the minute track is very neat other than where some blistering is apparent. The deteriorating flattening lume is typical of some watches from this era but it does look rather consistent, one might expect a little more irregularity, doesn't prove one thing or another. Good looking insert by the way.

I understand your point and of course anything is possible as pictures can play tricks on you sometimes. Without having the watch in person to inspect, it’s hard to make a lot of determinations. But I will say from the couple pictures the OP has provided, it certainly seems like a re sprayed dial. I personally have never seen a gilt dial with those characteristics. More macro pictures would help in different lighting. But as it stands from those pics, I would think the dial has been sealed, re sprayed, re lacquered what ever you want to call it. Is it possible that 1 picture could be playing a trick on us? Sure. Need more pics to further investigate. But I will say if I was in the market to buy a watch and the seller only provided those pics, it would be enough for me to look at it and say “hands have been redone, so what was stopping them from spraying the dial?” Then I would walk away from it based on those pics

[Paul]

If those pics were all I had to work with, I pass that watch over in an instant.

I'd see the flat, lifeless plots, the clumsy look of heavy, fresh lacquer, the virtually unblemished dial surface (50 years old ), and I'd tag the dial as completely refinished. I'd note the profile of the frame of the hands, and how the length falls short of what I might expect for that dial reference, and I'd tag those as wrong generation (at best) or after-market (at worst).

I'd see a heavily worn bezel, lugs that are age-worn or polished, pointed crown guards that are similarly soft and rounded, a complete mismatch for what appears to be a pristine, totally unblemished factory fresh dial.

And making those calls based on a couple of simple, dreadfully low-res. pics with the watch positioned at unhelpful angles, I could be doing both the new owner and the seller a major disservice, casting slurs on what may in fact be a perfectly good 5512.

Much safer to simply wait for LAWW to report back to the owner, or for much better pics to be made available to us.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by SubKing

my watch is a matte dial 5513 from the 70’s. It’s supposed to have a texture... It is also a completely different watch from a different period so not sure why you want to compare a matte dial to a gilt dial..?

Sorry I misquoted. I was referring to the post below yours!

[miccro]

on those pics - refinished dial, it would be difficult to persuade me otherwise.

[Shawnnyang]

Originally Posted by Paul

If those pics were all I had to work with, I pass that watch over in an instant.

I'd see the flat, lifeless plots, the clumsy look of heavy, fresh lacquer, the virtually unblemished dial surface (50 years old ), and I'd tag the dial as completely refinished. I'd note the profile of the frame of the hands, and how the length falls short of what I might expect for that dial reference, and I'd tag those as wrong generation (at best) or after-market (at worst).

I'd see a heavily worn bezel, lugs that are age-worn or polished, pointed crown guards that are similarly soft and rounded, a complete mismatch for what appears to be a pristine, totally unblemished factory fresh dial.

And making those calls based on a couple of simple, dreadfully low-res. pics with the watch positioned at unhelpful angles, I could be doing both the new owner and the seller a major disservice, casting slurs on what may in fact be a perfectly good 5512.

Much safer to simply wait for LAWW to report back to the owner, or for much better pics to be made available to us.

LAWW is on the case! Will update the thread in a few days time to determine whether the dial is too good and unblemished to be true or a product of tampering. Will also provide a few refreshed pictures in case I get the green light to move ahead with the deal. Also, it may just be the unique lighting of the work bench, here's another pic provided by seller in more natural room lighting.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by roh123

No :)

These are from 1963. Non-chapter and swiss only. Either with upper underline, uder underline or no underline. Just to confuse it extra you could have double swiss as well.

Unfortunately at this level of photos you have enough to tell if aftermarket or not and a gray area on other items. Unfortunately really good dial photography is hard - certainly for us laymen photogs. Mix fluorescent lights and and cheap macro lenses for your iPhone...

In person undera loupe is different,

[Autavian]

Originally Posted by Shawnnyang

LAWW is on the case! .

Hey Shawn. I am sure you are really hoping that LAWW tells you what you want to hear, and I understand the pain and anxiousness in wanting something to be a certain way and then it turns out that its not.

Regardless of what LAWW says, its without question that the watch listed has been refinished/relumed/relaquered, of whatever anyone would like to call it (at least based on the pictures posted, and honestly, it has nothing to do with the light on the work bench.) Psychologically, our minds gear our thoughts towards wanting to justify reasons to support what we may believe or feel, so I get it and am not discrediting your feelings)

In your earlier pictures you can see near the 1 and 2 o clock hr plots where the paint bubbled up. Also, around the 3-6-9 rectangular hr plots, you can see where the paint clumps meet the relume of the hr plots. Even under the UV light the hr plots do not look right.

This is no insult to you or the watch itself, as it is nice in appearance, however, its clearly doesn't look right and not because of the work bench light.

Remember this, you listed the piece here for advice from the experts/collectors, who have handled dozens of these. If there is continuity in the feedback provided and is consistent across the board...................then that should be a clear indication of the answers to the questions you inquired initially. LAWW or anyone else for that matter can share their opinions, but that watch for me, would be a pass.

Best of luck with this ordeal. Remember this, as long as your happy with the watch, it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks. Its your money, your wrist, enjoy it and be happy.

E

[springer]

Originally Posted by Autavian

Hey Shawn. I am sure you are really hoping that LAWW tells you what you want to hear, and I understand the pain and anxiousness in wanting something to be a certain way and then it turns out that its not.

Regardless of what LAWW says, its without question that the watch listed has been refinished/relumed/relaquered, of whatever anyone would like to call it (at least based on the pictures posted, and honestly, it has nothing to do with the light on the work bench.) Psychologically, our minds gear our thoughts towards wanting to justify reasons to support what we may believe or feel, so I get it and am not discrediting your feelings)

In your earlier pictures you can see near the 1 and 2 o clock hr plots where the paint bubbled up. Also, around the 3-6-9 rectangular hr plots, you can see where the paint clumps meet the relume of the hr plots. Even under the UV light the hr plots do not look right.

This is no insult to you or the watch itself, as it is nice in appearance, however, its clearly doesn't look right and not because of the work bench light.

Remember this, you listed the piece here for advice from the experts/collectors, who have handled dozens of these. If there is continuity in the feedback provided and is consistent across the board...................then that should be a clear indication of the answers to the questions you inquired initially. LAWW or anyone else for that matter can share their opinions, but that watch for me, would be a pass.

Best of luck with this ordeal. Remember this, as long as your happy with the watch, it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks. Its your money, your wrist, enjoy it and be happy.

E

Totally agree here. My opinions remain prima facie - move on to something else.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by springer

Totally agree here. My opinions remain prima facie - move on to something else.

I concur. We all pretty much have the same opinion on this one. Move on unless you love the watch for what it is and pay accordingly for it

[Shawnnyang]

Thanks everyone, just got off the phone with one of the owners of LA watch works, who has zero vested interest in this transaction. I'm a long time customer and they get my business one way or another. This is a guy that's handled countless gilt dials over the course of decades. He'll double check with the other owner as well to confirm his views.

1. Under a loupe and having him looked at it every which way in the lighting conditions available to him, he can definitively say that it has not been relumed or resprayed or refinished in any way.

2. The hands are 100% relumed (not even with tritium).

3. Gilt relief print/etc. are 100% correct.

4. The serial number range is correct for the case as well as the dial.

I'm highly appreciative of everyone who has weighed in. To be frank, it gave me a lot of pause on this transaction and really ramped up the level of diligence I requested from LA watch works. In fact, I canceled the wire within an hour of reading the first page of comments and told seller the deal will be put on hold until further diligence from LA watch works.

For his part, the seller was extremely helpful and cooperative and noted to me that he's confident in the watch (having sat in a safe since the 80s) and I'm welcome to undertake any level of diligence to get me comfortable.

All of that being said, I am comfortable. While I'm sure everyone that weighed in is knowledgeable on the subject, I think it's helpful to keep in mind that everything being said is based on two low-res pics. I'll get some more pictures up under different lighting conditions once available. I'm sure the debate may continue but that's certainly fine by me (glad to be a data point for future reference).

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Shawnnyang

Thanks everyone, just got off the phone with one of the owners of LA watch works, who has zero vested interest in this transaction. I'm a long time customer and they get my business one way or another. This is a guy that's handled countless gilt dials over the course of decades. He'll double check with the other owner as well to confirm his views.

1. Under a loupe and having him looked at it every which way in the lighting conditions available to him, he can definitively say that it has not been relumed or resprayed or refinished in any way.

2. The hands are 100% relumed (not even with tritium).

3. Gilt relief print/etc. are 100% correct.

4. The serial number range is correct for the case as well as the dial.

I'm highly appreciative of everyone who has weighed in. To be frank, it gave me a lot of pause on this transaction and really ramped up the level of diligence I requested from LA watch works. In fact, I canceled the wire within an hour of reading the first page of comments and told seller the deal will be put on hold until further diligence from LA watch works.

For his part, the seller was extremely helpful and cooperative and noted to me that he's confident in the watch (having sat in a safe since the 80s) and I'm welcome to undertake any level of diligence to get me comfortable.

All of that being said, I am comfortable. While I'm sure everyone that weighed in is knowledgeable on the subject, I think it's helpful to keep in mind that everything being said is based on two low-res pics. I'll get some more pictures up under different lighting conditions once available. I'm sure the debate may continue but that's certainly fine by me (glad to be a data point for future reference).

Thanks for the update. The experts here could be wrong of course.

One thing to keep in mind though as I have had my fair share of independent watchmakers assessing authenticity of watches.

1) As you note, they don't really care. As long as you bring over your watch for service, maintenance, the less time they spent trying to determine if your watch is real or not, the better it is so they can focus on other revenue streams.

2) They miss so many things. I remember once bringing in a watch that had a number of aftermarket parts put on it (disclosed by the seller) to get their 2 cents. They gave it the green light - only comment was "the backcase has some scratches, make sure to bring it to us so we can open it properly next time". This comment came from the owner of a well known watchmatcher here in Australia.

Now its a different story if they were actually buying it! i'm sure suddenly, "lots" of issues will surface....

[Shawnnyang]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

Thanks for the update. The experts here could be wrong of course.

One thing to keep in mind though as I have had my fair share of independent watchmakers assessing authenticity of watches.

1) As you note, they don't really care. As long as you bring over your watch for service, maintenance, the less time they spent trying to determine if your watch is real or not, the better it is so they can focus on other revenue streams.

2) They miss so many things. I remember once bringing in a watch that had a number of aftermarket parts put on it (disclosed by the seller) to get their 2 cents. They gave it the green light - only comment was "the backcase has some scratches, make sure to bring it to us so we can open it properly next time". This comment came from the owner of a well known watchmatcher here in Australia.

Now its a different story if they were actually buying it! i'm sure suddenly, "lots" of issues will surface....

I don't discount the possibility but the same can be said of anybody that's commenting on a message board (perhaps more so) and if I took that view, the only way I could ever get comfortable buying a vintage watch is if I myself dedicated the time and effort to become an expert to the same degree as an experienced watch smith.

Also, not here to win any arguments, just outlining my thought process, which I'm sure others have undertaken when contemplating a similar purchase.

Been a really interesting experience :)

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Shawnnyang

I don't discount the possibility but the same can be said of anybody that's commenting on a message board (perhaps more so) and if I took that view, the only way I could ever get comfortable buying a vintage watch is if I myself dedicated the time and effort to become an expert to the same degree as an experienced watch smith.

Also, not here to win any arguments, just outlining my thought process, which I'm sure others have undertaken when contemplating a similar purchase.

Been a really interesting experience :)

You have been handling the board's comments well and I know its not an easy process filtering through all of this.

One point I must refute to your comment is that the difference comparing the members on this board and an independent watchmaker is that we don't intend to make a cent from you. Our opinions are to really try to help members from buying watches that are not truthfully represented - that is really it. Our potential discouragement isn't (well I hope not anyway) so one of us can swoop in on a deal!

I think many would also argue that the long timers here are far more knowledgeable than most watchmakers. Anyway, my 2c on the topic and wish you the best with your watch / search.

Do post some pictures when you get the watch in hand - hopefully the dial would show something different than the aforementioned pics!