Trying to replace the original 1500 dial (perpetual date) on a 5700 rolex (air-king)

[highfell]

Excuse me as I am a lurker and very occasional poster, but I would like some help as to whether there is someone senior in Rolex who may take a different view than their customer service department.

I am looking to have my Rolex serviced by them, as it has gone wrong three years after an Independent dealer serviced it. They have quoted near to £1,000. However they won't replace the original dial on the watch (1500) with the same model dial. It was my father's watch which he bought in 1965.

The model/Caliber number is a 5700 which I accept seems not to be a Perpetual Date but an Airking Date model . However, The original dial clearly shows this watch rather as being an Oyster Perpetual Date and a 1500 model. The brown patina is from being in the African sun. I have sent them the original Rolex documentation which states the watch as being a 1500.

Response from Rolex when I requested a 1500 dial. : "They have looked into this for you and the matter has been clarified by the Customer Services manager who has advised me that we are unable to make an exception as Rolex will not permit a modification to one of their watches.

Unfortunately this does mean that we are restricted to fitting one of the four dials available for the 5700 (Airking Date) even though they are not in keeping with the current appearance of the watch.

I am sorry that we are unable to assist you with preserving the appearance of your watch."

Now I understand, why Rolex want to keep integrity of their watches, but surely as the watch is original and it actually came with that 1500 dial, despite having 5700 workings, they should replace the dial with the dial on the watch when it was purchased and not replace with a new dial, which would change the look of the watch than the one I remembered my father wearing.

Has anyone had any joy taking a similar issue to a senior person at Rolex who could take a more enlightened view.

Thanks for any comments/help.

[Tools]

Can't help you with Customer Service..

However, if you are changing the dial, you are changing the dial - it will never be the same as what your father wore.

Personally, I would much prefer an Air-King dial on my watch..

[bieb1]

Perhaps the OP can clarify the point about original documents stating the 5700 as a 1500? What kind of documents are these and can you post pictures of the watch and docs?

It sounds to me that this was a 5700 that at some stage was modified by a watch maker who fitted a 1500 dial and sold it on.

As such, it is unlikely anyone at Rolex will do as requested, eg fit another "incorrect" dial.

If the current 1500 dial is patinated brown (tropical?), replacing it with another 1500 dial would change the look of the watch (as tools also noted above), so why not consider getting only the movement serviced at an independant (this time someone recommended by forum members) and keep the look as it is?

[highfell]

Original purchase guarantee attached. As you can see the watch was purchased in Daresalaam in 1965. Also attached is the watch itself.

I guess the key issue is whether the current dial on the watch is original, and I know that it wasn't changed since 1965, so the question is whether it was changed before that. I assumed that my father bought the watch as new.

As regards an independent dealer, I did use one four years ago for a complete service and I had to take the watch back a couple of times because the watch was running very fast. It has now gone wrong again, so I am not sure they were any good, hence my desire to use Rolex. Which UK based independents would you recommend ? Would they be able to source a 1500 dial?

[wearl]

Would you be able to post a clear pic of the watch? I have a 1963 1500 that has the exact same dial I think.

[highfell]

Don't have any other photos to hand and the watch is still with Rolex . But attached is a photo of the exact same dial (just not on my watch)

[bieb1]

Very interesting. Regarding the papers, I think they were supposed to show the case number of the watch, rather than the reference number. I have seen a few guarantee papers like that from mid sixties, so that could be genuine, just wrongly completed.

Still, it is unlikely it left the factory with this dial, hence Rolex refusal to continue the modification.

As far as independants go, I meant watch maker, not dealer. There are several very experienced UK collectors on the forum who can probably point you to a respected watch maker with Rolex expertise in the UK. They might be able to find a 1500 dial for you or help restoring the current one to a more natural colour. Maybe just do a new post, "looking for good watch maker in UK (region)"....

Final point, and this is always a personal thing, if you remember your father wearing the watch with the brownish dial, think hard before deciding to change it. It is part of the watch as well as your family's history.

[highfell]

I have been in contact with one of the recommended independent Rolex watch servicer in the uk. They were very helpful, suggesting that they could restore my dial to its original glory thus resolving my issue regarding keeping the same appearance of the dial type. Apparently it comes up as new.

I do need to decide whether to keep the dial unaltered from its brownish colour or not. That is something I am not sure about. And of course restoring the rather than replacing it means I can't keep the original dial just in case I change my mind later on !

Also my Rolex bracelet is the old original one and is therefore narrower/slimmer near to the clasp than modern ones. The metal clip that joins the clasp to the bracelet has become bent. Rolex refused to fix that saying they would only replace the whole bracelet with a newer one - they really aren't what I would call customer focused. The independent dealer said they would mend that bit without any concerns.

[highfell]

Originally Posted by bieb1

Very interesting. Regarding the papers, I think they were supposed to show the case number of the watch, rather than the reference number. I have seen a few guarantee papers like that from mid sixties, so that could be genuine, just wrongly completed.

I would view it as likely to an error from the dealer in Tanzania who read the number as being the type of watch 1500

Still, it is unlikely it left the factory with this dial, hence Rolex refusal to continue the modification.

You may well be right , but I just don't see the dealer in those days having the means to change the dial but I don't know obviously. Btw the back of the case has 1500 etched into it, so I do wonder if it did leave the factory with the 1500 dial on it. The case back indicates a 1963 manufacture I believe

[R.W.T.]

Dial swaps were VERY common at dealers at this time. My watchmaker on premise at a local AD when the store changed hands had 50+ dials in stock.

My question is...WHY would you change that dial...?

It's fabulous.

Now you have to understand what Rolex's point is.

They are fighting a constant battle with counterfeits and altered watches.

They KNOW...how their watches came I can assure you of that.

While everyone is feeling the crunch of things getting tighter...with them...they are only trying to alleviate the suffering on some level.

I am surprised they will even agree to work on your watch at this point it is beyond their cut off date.

Now before everyone gets their undies in a bundle...it's quantity...you can't expect anyone to maintain a parts supply and serviceability of anything that is 50 years old...especially when they have made probably close to 10 MILLION watches...since then.

Rolex Dallas would very likely return it un examined.

IF they agree to service it they are hoping to put it back to the best possible use...they are not a museum curator service.

That bracelet is no longer available so they will sell you the counterpart that is functional on your watch.

How the paperwork was improperly filled out at the time the watch was sold...is a different story...it's 50 years ago...

Are they insisting that you change the dial?

They might be. That I cannot agree with...but once again they are trying to put ducks in a row....in a sea of previous unbridled things that went on outside of their direct control.

It's not you they are singling out.

They are VERY customer service oriented in a way.

They are not on every occasion preservationists or vintage watch enthusiasts.

They make and sell new watches. They do service them for a LONG period of time..to the best of their ability to make them as good of a watch as they can.

They never meant for their watches to be anything more than watches...they were not designing collector's items. We did that.

Will Ford restore your 1965 Mustang with all exact original factory parts...???????

[R.W.T.]

"I would view it as likely to an error from the dealer in Tanzania who read the number as being the type of watch 1500"

The 1500 and 5700 are so very similar in looks...and the case backs on similar models are often that way from the factory.

THAT you could pound them with for fun. LOL "what do you MEAN it's not a 1500 it says so right on the case back"

But the dealer who knows what they did...they could have just seen the watch and said oh it's a 1500 and written it down that way. Bad mistake for you.

The difference in the watches is the movement.

The 5700 uses a 1525 and the 1500 uses 1565-75

One is a flat hairspring slide regulator non chronometer and the other is a free sprung balance 5 position movement. Similar base...but different grade.

[bieb1]

If the case back and dial say 1500, do the markings between the lugs say ref 5700 on one side and does the case number on the other side correspond with the 1963 date? And the movement of course, is it a 1525 or 1565?

If Rolex has provided an estimate of the work, it will include all those details, which will allow you to determine if the watch is older and perhaps re-dialled before being sold to your dad.

Not that it makes any difference to what Rolex will do, but just for your info so you know what you have.

As for the dial dilemma, that is understandably a tough decision. If the brown patination is ugly (and I guess it is, since you seem to be set on changing it), but you do not want to destroy the dial by having it restored (which many people here will advise against since costly and this is not a rare dial), perhaps you can compromise by having the movement serviced now and start searching for a replacement dial on internet (forums, Ebay etc.). They surely pop up once in a while and once you find one, you can have it replaced and keep the old one = best of both worlds.

Of course, if the current dial is only dirty and can be cleaned without refinishing it, you can have that done, but I doubt that that is the case. A good watch maker will tell you.

[bieb1]

On the bracelet, if it is badly stretched, there is a risk of a link-pin breaking and losing the watch. If only the clasp connection is bent, it can probably be fixed by the watch maker.

Check the number on the bracelet (near the last link) and on the end link. With that you can search on internet for a vintage one for sale should you want one.

[highfell]

All - a quick update. First thanks for the all the advice.

In the end I decided after consultation with my mother, to get the watch repaired by an Indepemdent Rolex specialist but more importantly the original dial to be restored to its original glory by a company who has expertise in such matters.

The restoration is now complete and the watch is being returned to me. I will share pictures of the watch once I have received it.

[highfell]

I decided to have the Rolex repaired and the dial restored. I think they have done a great job, as you can see from the picture of the watch and my view is that the watch dial has been sympathetically restored to its original glory.

The independent Rolex dealer confirmed the following :

Case serial number :1379xxx
Model : 5700
Calibre : 1560
Movement number : D59358
On the inside of the case back it states model is 1500 and date of manufacture 111/1963
Bracelet ref has 57 and on the clasp a date of 4/66
My father's papers from the Tanzanian dealer states the date of March 1965

My view of the history of the watch now is:

The watch was probably originally an airking date and made in 1963. The Tanzanian dealer sold it to my dad in March 1965 and put a 1500 dial face onto the watch and stamped the model as being 1500 on inside of the case back.

I understand that normally a date Calibre should end in 5 I.e. 1565 not 1560, but both dealers who have repaired my watch have advised its a 1560. Does the movement number mentioned above of D59358 provide any further explanation ?

[Max72]

Beautiful heirloom