Thoughts on Gilt Dial Longevity

[Shawnnyang]

Hi all, just wired funds for a very nice PCG gilt dial 5513. After pulling the trigger, my immediate thought is whether I should take any measures to protect that dial. Wanted some input on the following from those who have had more experience with gilt dials.

1. Is there anything to be done to preserve the dial aside from making sure the gaskets are changed, pressure testing every so often and not allowing moisture in the case?

2. Should I expect my gilt dial to "age" beyond its current state? It seems to me that once these dials have "set" after so many decades, they more or less remain in their current condition and shape to the extent its not exposed to any additional moisture.

3. Seems that this is "swiss" only radium dial. Could anyone provide additional detail about this specific dial variation? How common is it for the swiss lettering to not be white and for this dial to not have the underline? Can't seem to find much literature on this but the guys at LAWW seem to have no concerns as to authenticity.

All photos courtesy of the guys at LAWW

[springer]

Old watches, especially their dials, are rather fragile. Treat it carefully and it should last many more years, decades and beyond. Can't help anymore with the dial, but someone did a nice job matching the hands.

[Shawnnyang]

Good eye! 100% agree that the hands are relumed!

[TurboWatch]

Check your serial number, this dial belongs to the early PCG (before the million serial range). It's been relumed.

[springer]

Originally Posted by TurboWatch

Check your serial number, this dial belongs to the early PCG (before the million serial range). It's been relumed.

...and resprayed too!

[Shawnnyang]

Care to expand guys? I'm having this vetted by some of the most reknown experts around (which I am not) and this is the first I've heard of this.

[joli160]

You just got an answer from a real expert, if he says it is sprayed than it is so.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Shawnnyang

Care to expand guys? I'm having this vetted by some of the most reknown experts around (which I am not) and this is the first I've heard of this.

Well, you would expect the hands to glow as well under uv. I can't say they are relumed but my guess is that they are replaced and that they are much later. Swiss only gilts from this era often had gilt hands. And they should for sure glow.

Here's what you would expect.

[roh123]

Regarding the gilt dial I'd say it will keep fine if not affected by water etc. Especially the transition dials are fragile and yours have already become a bit spotty and matte. I doubt it will change much if protected.

Finding perfectly glossy swiss only non-chapter ring dials is very hard. Yours look like most of them do. Enjoy!

[Shawnnyang]

Fully agreed on the hands (they have been relumed and I'm 100% aware of this before making the deal). I was referencing the previous comments to the dial having been relumed.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Shawnnyang

Fully agreed on the hands (they have been relumed and I'm 100% aware of this before making the deal). I was referencing the previous comments to the dial having been relumed.

Lume doesn't necessarily look as puffy and precise as it often is from this era. I still wouldn't call it out as relumed and resprayed personally but I don't doubt them. I'd want to be certain before making such a comment and I can't say for sure. I'm sure they can explain further so it gets more clear. These dials often age poorly which result in a spotty surface.

[Kingface66]

A PCG case (from 1962, presumedly) should have a chapter ring dial, and, likely, with an underline, no?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

A PCG case (from 1962, presumedly) should have a chapter ring dial, and, likely, with an underline, no?

No :)

These are from 1963. Non-chapter and swiss only. Either with upper underline, uder underline or no underline. Just to confuse it extra you could have double swiss as well.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by roh123

No :)

These are from 1963.

I just confirmed my mistake in Mondani’s book. But thanks for correcting me, sir!

[springer]

Originally Posted by Shawnnyang

Care to expand guys? I'm having this vetted by some of the most reknown experts around (which I am not) and this is the first I've heard of this.

Look at the finish on the dial - clearly resprayed with clear lacquer. This finish is not from damage but from respraying. If you look close, you can see particles in the lacquer finish.

It is not uncommon these days to find resprayed or refinished dials due to the value of these older watches.Along with resprayed dials, you will find refinished markers, refinished hands or all three. Be careful out there.

Here is a blow-up of the dial.

[05carbondrz]

My question is if it’s obviously been refinished then why is LAWW giving it a pass?

[ahantel]

Originally Posted by springer

Look at the finish on the dial - clearly resprayed with clear lacquer. This finish is not from damage but from respraying. If you look close, you can see particles in the lacquer finish.

It is not uncommon these days to find resprayed or refinished dials due to the value of these older watches.Along with resprayed dials, you will find refinished markers, refinished hands or all three. Be careful out there.

Here is a blow-up of the dial.

Very much agree with you JP. The biggest tells on the resprayed dials are defects that are somehow still glossy. If there are divets or significant marks on the dial they shouldn't still be glossy, though fine spidering is normal on original gloss (like below). Additionally, the depth of the printing is often lost on resprayed dials so the mirror of the dial is flat instead of with the negative printing of the gilt.

[RC2]

Well this might change the deal done?


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[themaninblack]

Originally Posted by ahantel

Very much agree with you JP. The biggest tells on the resprayed dials are defects that are somehow still glossy. If there are divets or significant marks on the dial they shouldn't still be glossy, though fine spidering is normal on original gloss (like below). Additionally, the depth of the printing is often lost on resprayed dials so the mirror of the dial is flat instead of with the negative printing of the gilt.

The finish on this does not bear any resemblance to the OP’s watch.

[Shawnnyang]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

My question is if it’s obviously been refinished then why is LAWW giving it a pass?

They’ve only had it for a day. Not everyone there has had a chance to weigh in. Given who they are, I’m going to listen to whatever they say. Also, those pictures were taken at an angle and under certain lighting to specifically show me the condition of the lacquer so not necessarily completely representative of the watch visually.

I’m respectful of opinions around here but think they’ll be better positioned to opine especially given that they will have a chance to handle the watch live.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by roh123

Well, you would expect the hands to glow as well under uv. I can't say they are relumed but my guess is that they are replaced and that they are much later. Swiss only gilts from this era often had gilt hands. And they should for sure glow.

Here's what you would expect.

Oh hey nice picture.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Shawnnyang

They’ve only had it for a day. Not everyone there has had a chance to weigh in. Given who they are, I’m going to listen to whatever they say. Also, those pictures were taken at an angle and under certain lighting to specifically show me the condition of the lacquer so not necessarily completely representative of the watch visually.

I’m respectful of opinions around here but think they’ll be better positioned to opine especially given that they will have a chance to handle the watch live.

What’s the point asking the guys on this board if you are gonna take the word of LAWW anyway?

If I were you, I would definitely be very cautious on this watch. For a early 60s watch, the dial condition looks too new IMO

[05carbondrz]

If there is even a question of originality from long Time respected Collectors,Why risk it on such an expensive piece that 70% of the value is the dial?

[Franks07]

OP...this is sage advice from one of the very best on this Forum. Speaking personally I can say categorically that I would never purchase a watch without a "green light" from "Springer". J.P's opine is as good as it gets


Ss

Originally Posted by springer

Look at the finish on the dial - clearly resprayed with clear lacquer. This finish is not from damage but from respraying. If you look close, you can see particles in the lacquer finish.

It is not uncommon these days to find resprayed or refinished dials due to the value of these older watches.Along with resprayed dials, you will find refinished markers, refinished hands or all three. Be careful out there.

Here is a blow-up of the dial.

[Shawnnyang]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

What’s the point asking the guys on this board if you are gonna take the word of LAWW anyway?

If I were you, I would definitely be very cautious on this watch. For a early 60s watch, the dial condition looks too new IMO

I’m fully appreciative of opinions and can’t really argue as I’m not an expert of any kind. Im sure everyone that’s weighed in knows their stuff. But again not everyone has been able to handle the watch and view it under a loupe and under different lighting conditions. (I mean the concerns have ranged from it looking too new to it being too spotty and aged)

In any case, my initial question wasn’t one of originality but a general maintenance question as well to learn more about about this dial variation.

Nonetheless, I remain appreciative of everyone’s input and will just leave it at that. People are still welcome to comment but I’m happy to leave it in the hands of a well respected shop.

[Autavian]

Hey Shawn

We understand how difficult It can be when opinions that may not be in line with yours present themselves with a slight dilemma, especially when you have an idea in your head that you spent X amount of dollars on a piece and you want to believe everything is correct.

Unfortunetly, I have to agree here with springer and the other members who chimed in. The watch in questions accurately shows signs of being re-sprayed and relaquered. The hands without a doubt redone to match, but the dial was certainly relumed as well.

All in all, it appears you have a redone and relumed dial for sure. If you didn’t pay premium and your ok with the suggestions and advice from experienced collectors and can live with the dial being redone then so be it. Many buyers would pass on a redone/relumed gilt dial.

Again, we all know the knot in the chest to stomach this, we have all been there, but there evidence is quiet obvious here.

Hopefully everyone’s feedback here may prompt a discussion with the seller, who very well may not have known either. These pieces are circulating through many hands and a very fast rate and not everyone handling/flipping/moving them, is well versed in determining relaqure/reluming/re-painting etc.

Best of luck

E

[mattedialdoc]

Originally Posted by Autavian

Hey Shawn

We understand how difficult It can be when opinions that may not be in line with yours present themselves with a slight dilemma, especially when you have an idea in your head that you spent X amount of dollars on a piece and you want to believe everything is correct.

Unfortunetly, I have to agree here with springer and the other members who chimed in. The watch in questions accurately shows signs of being re-sprayed and relaquered. The hands without a doubt redone to match, but the dial was certainly relumed as well.

All in all, it appears you have a redone and relumed dial for sure. If you didn’t pay premium and your ok with the suggestions and advice from experienced collectors and can live with the dial being redone then so be it. Many buyers would pass on a redone/relumed gilt dial.

Again, we all know the knot in the chest to stomach this, we have all been there, but there evidence is quiet obvious here.

Hopefully everyone’s feedback here may prompt a discussion with the seller, who very well may not have known either. These pieces are circulating through many hands and a very fast rate and not everyone handling/flipping/moving them, is well versed in determining relaqure/reluming/re-painting etc.

Best of luck

E

Very well stated


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[SubKing]

I concur with all said above. Dial re-sprayed which means they had to clean off the old lume before spraying, then relume after they re-spray the dial. Hands are also replacements and matched.

I also know what this feels like and it's the worst part of this hobby to find this stuff out to be true. I encourage you to contact the seller immediately and either inform them that either you can return the watch for a full refund since not as described, or if you like the watch and want to keep it, work out a price reduction for a partial refund.

Doesn't matter what dealer sold you the watch. Don't let them sway your gut feeling. I have been sold relumed watches from very well known dealers in the past that swore the piece was not relumed, but I found out after the fact it was.. But a 10x loupe tells no lies.

Dealers are not the most keen when it comes to the details like collectors are. I feel some dealers concentrate more on the money side of things some times, which causes them to miss details them selves...

It's all a learning process, but we all grow wiser every day with every mistake. At the end of the day, if you have a bad feeling in your gut, that's not paranoia, that is something that might actually be wrong. Trust your gut and take the advice given to you here, I promise its the most unbiased advise you will get.

[themaninblack]

Interesting. I will take a dissenting view here to some. I think it is unlikely that this watch has been re-sprayed.

I own quite a few gilt dial Rolex watches from between 1958 and 1966. At least two of them show dial deterioration characteristics that are consistent and very similar to the OP's watch. One of them, a 5513, has unquestionable provenance and service history because it was purchased new by my father in 1964. The bubbling and rippling that you see on these dials happens quite often but is sometimes only visible in the right light and at the right angle of view and magnification. Sometimes it is worse and is the precursor to quite serious deterioration and breakdown of the surface.

The OP's watch has very good sharp clean coronet and print, the minute track is very neat other than where some blistering is apparent. The deteriorating flattening lume is typical of some watches from this era but it does look rather consistent, one might expect a little more irregularity, doesn't prove one thing or another. Good looking insert by the way.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I concur with all said above. Dial re-sprayed which means they had to clean off the old lume before spraying, then relume after they re-spray the dial. Hands are also replacements and matched.

I also know what this feels like and it's the worst part of this hobby to find this stuff out to be true. I encourage you to contact the seller immediately and either inform them that either you can return the watch for a full refund since not as described, or if you like the watch and want to keep it, work out a price reduction for a partial refund.

Doesn't matter what dealer sold you the watch. Don't let them sway your gut feeling. I have been sold relumed watches from very well known dealers in the past that swore the piece was not relumed, but I found out after the fact it was.. But a 10x loupe tells no lies.

Dealers are not the most keen when it comes to the details like collectors are. I feel some dealers concentrate more on the money side of things some times, which causes them to miss details them selves...

It's all a learning process, but we all grow wiser every day with every mistake. At the end of the day, if you have a bad feeling in your gut, that's not paranoia, that is something that might actually be wrong. Trust your gut and take the advice given to you here, I promise its the most unbiased advise you will get.

those "blisters" are just re-spray that wasnt uniform and has dried like that.

If you could share some pics referring to your watch with similar effect that would be helpful of course