5070G with only Cert of Origin

[andynj]

Looking at a 5070G - no paperwork except a cert of origin but from a well known dealer. Any thoughts? What of %age discount ?

[goog53]

U mean papers from the archives? Any pics? Condition? Service history? Has it been polished?

[martinr]

What if you want to sell?

[andynj]

I mean how big a difference should the lack of paperwork make with all other things equal.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by andynj

I mean how big a difference should the lack of paperwork make with all other things equal.

A "Certificate of Origin", or a "Certificate of Authenticity" are both meaningless documents unless you, personally, commissioned it.

Buy a watch based on condition and market value; anything more is a discussion point.

[Hairdude1]

Some older Pateks may only come with "Origin Papers" I would be more concerned with the condition and service history.

[mps354]

Originally Posted by andynj

Looking at a 5070G - no paperwork except a cert of origin but from a well known dealer. Any thoughts? What of %age discount ?

I guess I'm confused...the certificate of origin is the paperwork. So you are just missing the instruction manual?

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Tools

A "Certificate of Origin", or a "Certificate of Authenticity" are both meaningless documents unless you, personally, commissioned it.



Buy a watch based on condition and market value; anything more is a discussion point.

You're the man Larry but I tend to disagree. A certificate of origin from Patek is a major value added piece of paper.

No clue what a cert of authenticity adds lol

[KarlS]

i wouldnt buy any high value watch without box and paperwork....

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by andynj

I mean how big a difference should the lack of paperwork make with all other things equal.

In the case of a 5070 having the original certificate of origin could add thousands to the sale.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by mps354

I guess I'm confused...the certificate of origin is the paperwork. So you are just missing the instruction manual?

I share your confusion. The original certificate of origin is the only "paperwork" of significant value. Booklets, manuals, and even boxes can be sourced at a modest cost.

[Passionata]

Originally Posted by Tony64

I share your confusion. The original certificate of origin is the only "paperwork" of significant value. Booklets, manuals, and even boxes can be sourced at a modest cost.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by mps354

I guess I'm confused...the certificate of origin is the paperwork. So you are just missing the instruction manual?

im confused as to why there isn't both. The certificate of origin is usually stored in the same holder as the manual. So if you lost the manual you probably lost the certificate too.

I was assuming it was an extract from the archives as opposed to a certificate of origin.

[unknown]

If you want the watch and you will keep it a long time, buy it
Those papers are overrated
If you will sell it within a year, know that most potential clients will have a problem with the lack of original papers
But in 2050 the watch will be so rare that finding one with or without papers won't matter that much

BTW, I'm a watch collector and not a paper collector

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by unknown

If you want the watch and you will keep it a long time, buy it
Those papers are overrated
If you will sell it within a year, know that most potential clients will have a problem with the lack of original papers
But in 2050 the watch will be so rare that finding one with or without papers won't matter that much

BTW, I'm a watch collector and not a paper collector

So in a nutshell...if you buy a watch to wear it doesnt really matter...if you buy it as an investment it does matter...two watches next to each other ...one has full papers and box and same price and same condition...the full house will go first..logical...so there is a value...whether its 10 / 20 / 30% is up to the individual...

Watches were previously bought to wear and not to collect so pre 1990's nobody really cared about box and papers as they werent investments. However I think anybody buying a watch today understands the importance of box and papers and thus on modern watches its as intergral as the watch itself...grief people were moaning about the brown cardboard box!! So no I dont think its that important to have a box and papers on a vintage piece....on modern pieces yes

[unknown]

Originally Posted by KarlS

So in a nutshell...if you buy a watch to wear it doesnt really matter...if you buy it as an investment it does matter...two watches next to each other ...one has full papers and box and same price and same condition...the full house will go first..logical...so there is a value...whether its 10 / 20 / 30% is up to the individual...

but that's the point, they will not have the same price

and if the price difference is big enough I would be happy with the one without papers.

and definitely if it would be a keeper. If I know I'll wear it 20 or 30 years why would I care about papers.
If there is a big chance I would sell it within 2 years or so I would prefer to have papers because eI know it will be more difficult to sell

and like said, if it takes long enough it doesn't matter that much

If you were in the market for a 2499, would you buy one only if it came with papers?

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by unknown

but that's the point, they will not have the same price

and if the price difference is big enough I would be happy with the one without papers.

and definitely if it would be a keeper. If I know I'll wear it 20 or 30 years why would I care about papers.
If there is a big chance I would sell it within 2 years or so I would prefer to have papers because eI know it will be more difficult to sell

and like said, if it takes long enough it doesn't matter that much

If you were in the market for a 2499, would you buy one only if it came with papers?

No as its vintage and hence my views above. But imagine finding a 2499 with original box and papers (you forget the original nautilus box alone commands a huge price) along with its original invoice....to the millionaire collector thats teh grail and will thus command a significantly higher price than the one that doesnt....

Would I buy a 5070 / 5170 / 5270 without papers at say 20% discount??? No...in fact there is a 5131G up for auction with no papers....an easy skip for me...but then each to their own...

[jfriedkin]

With current and recently discontinued models, A certificate is petty important (or Extract from the Archives) Many of these models have replicas that are very hard to tell from the Real Deal. What is a Cert worth??

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by jfriedkin

With current and recently discontinued models, A certificate is petty important (or Extract from the Archives) Many of these models have replicas that are very hard to tell from the Real Deal. What is a Cert worth??

I respect your opinions, but have a hard time believing that a Patek replica could fool anyone able to part with the kind of money a real reference demands. Even the Rolex fakes are called out here on a regular basis. When you factor the sapphire caseback and significantly greater complexity of your typical Patek, it's hard to imagine anyone in the market could be deceived. Collectors want the COO more for completeness then to verify authenticity.

Also, the archive extract won't suffice for many modern collectors. It's obtainable for a modest fee from Patek, whereas the original certificate of origin is only issued at the time of sale and cannot be replaced. One really isn't a substitute for the other, but if the COO is lost then the archive is the only, but lesser, option.

[RussW]

Originally Posted by Tony64

I respect your opinions, but have a hard time believing that a Patek replica could fool anyone able to part with the kind of money a real reference demands.

I'm not so sure. As far as I'm concerned Bruno is the 5070 king. I recall over on Purists a year or two ago there was a thread about a fake 5070 that even Bruno thought may have been genuine.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by RussW

I'm not so sure. As far as I'm concerned Bruno is the 5070 king. I recall over on Purists a year or two ago there was a thread about a fake 5070 that even Bruno thought may have been genuine.

Fair enough, but anyone capable of producing a convincing modern Patek replica surely could fabricate an equally convincing paper certificate. N'est-ce pas?

My point being that generally the COO adds to completeness rather than verification of authenticity. To me that its real (and only) value.

[RussW]

Originally Posted by Tony64

Fair enough, but anyone capable of producing a convincing modern Patek replica surely could fabricate an equally convincing paper certificate. N'est-ce pas?

My point being that generally the COO adds to completeness rather than verification of authenticity. To me that its real (and only) value.

Good points, and agreed

[Tools]

Originally Posted by GB-man

You're the man Larry but I tend to disagree. A certificate of origin from Patek is a major value added piece of paper.

No clue what a cert of authenticity adds lol

I guess that the point I was trying to make is that any "cert" needs to be authenticated, just like the watch.

Too many just glance at the papers and say "It must be good, it has papers" when that may be a very poor decision.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Tools

I guess that the point I was trying to make is that any "cert" needs to be authenticated, just like the watch.



Too many just glance at the papers and say "It must be good, it has papers" when that may be a very poor decision.

That's an excellent point. As noted above if you can make a convincing 5070 you can make convincing papers!

Have to be incredibly careful these days.

[wach16]

Originally Posted by KarlS

i wouldnt buy any high value watch without box and paperwork....

Agree!

[hush]

Originally Posted by RussW

I'm not so sure. As far as I'm concerned Bruno is the 5070 king. I recall over on Purists a year or two ago there was a thread about a fake 5070 that even Bruno thought may have been genuine.

[miccro]

Any follow up on this? If the OP is passing I'd be interested in details / price asked by seller...

Mike