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Old 22 August 2017, 12:21 AM   #1
GES11T
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Need help with a vintage 5513

Calling vintage experts, what's your take on this piece in terms of originality and authenticity.
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Old 22 August 2017, 09:34 AM   #2
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Just adding some more details: '66 5513 Meter First Dial 1.4 mil serial
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Old 22 August 2017, 07:02 PM   #3
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The insert is a service one, need some better photos to judge thethe rest of it (sides, back etc...) 1.4m 1966 matte dial meters first do exist (i've had one and seen many) before anyone says otherwise
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Old 22 August 2017, 07:15 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Xantiagib View Post
The insert is a service one, need some better photos to judge thethe rest of it (sides, back etc...) 1.4m 1966 matte dial meters first do exist (i've had one and seen many) before anyone says otherwise
And I will say that a matte 1.4 5513 has an early service dial. To me it is a clear gilt serial and knowing how fragile these dials were I do not see it as odd that many got changed already during the matte meters first era. Also I can imagine that many owners wanted the new style dial. As we see gilt dials up to 1.6 I think the potential cross-over is too long to believe in 1.3-1.4m watches to be untouched with matte dials.

Each to their own though when it comes to transitional watches.
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Old 23 August 2017, 01:05 AM   #5
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I have a 1.49 mil serial matte 5513.
Clearly both gilt/gloss and matte exist in this serial range, both being correct.
Less blurry pics, with the hands placed at 10:00 would be helpful.
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Old 23 August 2017, 01:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II View Post
I have a 1.49 mil serial matte 5513.
Clearly both gilt/gloss and matte exist in this serial range, both being correct.
Less blurry pics, with the hands placed at 10:00 would be helpful.
I hope the pics helps... serial is 1.47 mil. Just more info about the watch, the dealer was up front about the serviced crystal, bezel & insert and also the bracelet is from a later model but claimed the dial and hands are original. I'm not convinced that the hands are original, they don't look 60 yrs old to me. I believe they've been painted to match the lume blots, I've compared with watches with original hands, they should age differently to the blots hence a different patina.

Further comments are welcomed, thank you in advance.
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Old 23 August 2017, 05:52 PM   #7
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And I will say that a matte 1.4 5513 has an early service dial. To me it is a clear gilt serial and knowing how fragile these dials were I do not see it as odd that many got changed already during the matte meters first era. Also I can imagine that many owners wanted the new style dial. As we see gilt dials up to 1.6 I think the potential cross-over is too long to believe in 1.3-1.4m watches to be untouched with matte dials.

Each to their own though when it comes to transitional watches.
I had a 1.4xm matte (stamped 66 inside back and sold in april '67) which I thought was a gilt with a service dial - but it was confirmed original - it had a smudge to the crown I have only seen on matte 66/67 5513's.

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Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II View Post
I have a 1.49 mil serial matte 5513.
Clearly both gilt/gloss and matte exist in this serial range, both being correct.
Less blurry pics, with the hands placed at 10:00 would be helpful.
There.. you see... you have to remember what a cottage industry Rolex was in the 60s - outsourcing dials and putting together toolwatches in a warehouse.
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Old 24 August 2017, 08:33 AM   #8
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I had a 1.4xm matte (stamped 66 inside back and sold in april '67) which I thought was a gilt with a service dial - but it was confirmed original - it had a smudge to the crown I have only seen on matte 66/67 5513's.
Confirmed how? Just curious so don't get me wrong.

I'm not saying it aint true but these transtional will always be doubtful in many peoples eyes. Each to their own though.
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Old 24 August 2017, 11:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Xantiagib View Post
I had a 1.4xm matte (stamped 66 inside back and sold in april '67) which I thought was a gilt with a service dial - but it was confirmed original - it had a smudge to the crown I have only seen on matte 66/67 5513's.


yes, what does "confirmed" mean? Im not sure who could possibly confirm anything with absolute certainty.
Being stamped 66 inside only means that the caseback is from 66...nothing more.

IMO a matte dial watch from 1966 will never obtain the same value as a glossy dial as there will always be doubt...my .02.
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Old 24 August 2017, 11:35 AM   #10
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I believe they've been painted to match the lume blots, I've compared with watches with original hands, they should age differently to the blots hence a different patina.

Further comments are welcomed, thank you in advance.
Its not uncommon for hands and dial to age differently as they didn't necessarily come from the same supplier. Have you looked at the hands under a loupe? Thats the best way to determine if they were relumed.
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Old 24 August 2017, 06:10 PM   #11
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The watch is made up of what seem like authentic parts, but there's not much that's original to the watch as it left the factory, IMHO. I agree with your opinion on the handset...you'd want to see some corrosion on the metal (it's unbelievably clean) and some variance/discoloration in the lume (they look freshly painted). Perhaps the movement and case are alright (I have concerns with the dial), but considering the watch as a whole, there are red flags.
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Old 24 August 2017, 08:59 PM   #12
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yes, what does "confirmed" mean? Im not sure who could possibly confirm anything with absolute certainty.
Being stamped 66 inside only means that the caseback is from 66...nothing more.

IMO a matte dial watch from 1966 will never obtain the same value as a glossy dial as there will always be doubt...my .02.
ok 'confirmed' was too strong of a word, lets call it 'plausibly correct' a colleague of mine who works at a rolex service centre for many years, confirmed this to me - sure someone could have put a spare 67 or 68 dial onto a 66 gilt or a 66 case and back on a later watch - but I have studied the ones that claim to be of this era and made my own judgment too...
Then there's the history of that watch which was a one owner from new and with full original papers... so no case change in this case - dial perhaps but the previous original owner says that never happened.

always buy the seller... anyhow my watch is long sold so can't offer any more photos at the moment
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Old 24 August 2017, 10:02 PM   #13
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And I will say that a matte 1.4 5513 has an early service dial. To me it is a clear gilt serial and knowing how fragile these dials were I do not see it as odd that many got changed already during the matte meters first era. Also I can imagine that many owners wanted the new style dial. As we see gilt dials up to 1.6 I think the potential cross-over is too long to believe in 1.3-1.4m watches to be untouched with matte dials.

Each to their own though when it comes to transitional watches.
You seem pretty sure...
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Old 25 August 2017, 09:19 AM   #14
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You seem pretty sure...
There's no doubt to me. I don't believe in matte subs or GMTs in a 1.4m serial. I think they are early replacements. That doesn't make me right but that is what I believe. When I find one which seems untouched I might change my mind but so far those I've come across haven't been in original condition except the dials. That is by no means proof but I have my opinion clear. Hope that is ok?
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Old 25 August 2017, 10:51 AM   #15
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It seems the consensus is pretty split in regards to whether pre 1.6 mil matte dial is original or service. To be honest only Rolex god knows n he is not talking. That said, my inquiring mind wants to know if pre 1.6 mil meter first commands the same value as later meter first?


I blame it on the autoconnect.
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Old 25 August 2017, 12:50 PM   #16
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ok 'confirmed' was too strong of a word, lets call it 'plausibly correct' a colleague of mine who works at a rolex service centre for many years, confirmed this to me - sure someone could have put a spare 67 or 68 dial onto a 66 gilt or a 66 case and back on a later watch - but I have studied the ones that claim to be of this era and made my own judgment too...
Then there's the history of that watch which was a one owner from new and with full original papers... so no case change in this case - dial perhaps but the previous original owner says that never happened.

always buy the seller... anyhow my watch is long sold so can't offer any more photos at the moment
.

Ive been collecting watches for 30 years and if I had $1 for every time I've heard from the original owner that the watch was never touched Id be a rich man (ok, not rich...but the strippers would love me). Its rarely true and the odds the dial were changed are just as great as if it wasn't. Rule #27 of collecting...never trust the story from the guy who works in the service department for many years.

Im not saying the dial is a service dial...im just saying that it is impossible to confirm either way and even the memory of the original owner is rarely accurate 50 years later...dont get me started on the "guy who works in the service department"...his opinion is worth as much as anyones on this forum. For that matter, the knowledge of the members of this forum is far far greater than anyone working in the service department.
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Old 25 August 2017, 12:52 PM   #17
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There's no doubt to me. I don't believe in matte subs or GMTs in a 1.4m serial. I think they are early replacements. That doesn't make me right but that is what I believe. When I find one which seems untouched I might change my mind but so far those I've come across haven't been in original condition except the dials. That is by no means proof but I have my opinion clear. Hope that is ok?
and yes, this is exactly why I feel, it will never command the same amount of money regardless of if its original or not...doubt.
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Old 25 August 2017, 02:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Xantiagib View Post
ok 'confirmed' was too strong of a word, lets call it 'plausibly correct' a colleague of mine who works at a rolex service centre for many years, confirmed this to me - sure someone could have put a spare 67 or 68 dial onto a 66 gilt or a 66 case and back on a later watch - but I have studied the ones that claim to be of this era and made my own judgment too...
Then there's the history of that watch which was a one owner from new and with full original papers... so no case change in this case - dial perhaps but the previous original owner says that never happened.

always buy the seller... anyhow my watch is long sold so can't offer any more photos at the moment
Sounds like you've talked yourself into some type of plausible explanation that fits your needs. At best, it will always be a watch "with a story." I've seen these types of justifications and comments many times on the forums and at watch shows the past decade regarding questionable vintage.
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Old 25 August 2017, 02:20 PM   #19
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There's no doubt to me. I don't believe in matte subs or GMTs in a 1.4m serial. I think they are early replacements. That doesn't make me right but that is what I believe. When I find one which seems untouched I might change my mind but so far those I've come across haven't been in original condition except the dials. That is by no means proof but I have my opinion clear. Hope that is ok?
I agree with Per, and commented on this a few posts down here in the thread. 1.4 million is definitely in gilt dial territory.
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Old 25 August 2017, 04:38 PM   #20
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back to the dial in question, it doesnt look right to me, the lume is too uniform, oddly aged colour, matched with oddly perfect hand set. In the second picture it looks like there is markings-? scratching around plots 1,2,3,7,8 .... need a loop and better shots but doesnt look good to me,

with the limited photos given and whats already been disclosed- id be passing on this watch.
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Old 27 August 2017, 05:24 PM   #21
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back to the dial in question, it doesnt look right to me, the lume is too uniform, oddly aged colour....
Colour? Personally I like 'Pumpkin' and it's still a meters 1st dial and would be a nice daily wearer. Nothing for most collectors though with the dubious dial-ser.nr match and the other replaced parts
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Old 29 August 2017, 02:11 AM   #22
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Interesting thread. I have a 155***** matte dial. Is this transitional. My lume is different to the OP. But it could just be lighting.

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Old 29 August 2017, 02:44 AM   #23
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Can we see the whole dial?

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Old 29 August 2017, 02:53 AM   #24
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Old 29 August 2017, 10:37 AM   #25
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Interesting how the lumes are a very different shade to OG and the hands lume matched plus they looked mint as well.
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Old 30 August 2017, 12:06 AM   #26
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I have a 1.49 serial matte meters 1st. it's no doubt an original dial. they do exist






Quote:
Originally Posted by Xantiagib View Post
The insert is a service one, need some better photos to judge thethe rest of it (sides, back etc...) 1.4m 1966 matte dial meters first do exist (i've had one and seen many) before anyone says otherwise
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Old 30 August 2017, 12:11 AM   #27
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pic of my 1.49 serial matte 5513

Thanks
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Old 30 August 2017, 12:28 AM   #28
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I have a 1.49 serial matte meters 1st. it's no doubt an original dial. they do exist
Are you the first owner? A meters first matte dial is the logical replacement for the very fragile gilt dials one would expect from this time.

It could of course be as you say but I am curious how you know.
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Old 31 August 2017, 02:46 AM   #29
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Of course I'm not I was born in '71. But I've seen many '66 subs with both gilt & matte dials. My watch being a 1.49 with stamp from 4th quarter of '66 matte dial is feasible. Watch is all original from insert , tube, crown etc.
I believe 66 was the transition yr from gilt to matte.
Thanks
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Are you the first owner? A meters first matte dial is the logical replacement for the very fragile gilt dials one would expect from this time.

It could of course be as you say but I am curious how you know.
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Old 28 November 2017, 07:50 AM   #30
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Hello

I'm a novice but keen to get into this field. Please can someone give me an indication of what I should pay for what a reputable dealer describes as an all original early meters first 5513 in very good condition with all papers and the original bracelet? It has a beautiful strong pumpkin patina across the hands and markers and the original pearl. I have been looking for some time and prices seem to be rising fast.

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