If Tudors are overpriced for an ETA, what watches are not?

[soho]

I have seen several posts on these boards saying that Tudors are overpriced for watches with ETA movements. I am a big Tudor fan and disagree (or, perhaps more accurately, consider the point to be unimportant to me), as I know that the movements are solid and think that Tudor offers many things to owners beyond the movement (look and style, overall build quality, great straps options, history, variety, etc.).

But the comments do make me curious at to what the "non-overpriced" watches with ETA movements would be? For example, as I understand things a Pelagos is a roughly $4,000 watch with a ETA 2824 movement. What other watches are there out there with the same or similar movement that are significantly cheaper? I know that my B&R which has an ETA 2892 (I think) retails for a little over $4,000 (though it is easily available BNIB at a very substantial discount a off of that). I am sure that my question is oversimplying things, and any illumination is appreciated.

[karmatp]

Heck, most watches are way overpriced. I do own a couple of divers with the ETA 2824 that cost me less than $900. There are many divers produced in this world with the 2824 that cost less than a $1000, and they are great quality watches, they are just not the marketing giants like Rolex/Tudor.

If you are looking for a cheap, high quality diver, you need to go over to Watchuseek and look under the Dive Watch Forum. You will be amazed at how many Swiss Made watches come with ETA movements and cost a grand or less.

[Dan Pierce]

All true, Trevor. But you'd have to find another brand using the highest chronometer grade ETA movement to make a reasonable comparison.
dP

[soho]

Mods - I meant to put this in the Rolex General Discussion forum. My apologies for the misfire, and please move if possible. Thanks.

[FeelingTheBlues]

I don't mean to insult anybody but if everybody cared to read a bit more about ETA movements the whole overpriced crazy wouldn't exist. You have the right to prefer an in-house movement, whatever floats your boat as long as you buy what makes you happy. However, the stigma around that specific brand is, to me, exaggerated if not completely false. There are some cheaper ETA's around but most of the higher end brands will use the best movements from that company, I find the comparison between a Tudor's movement and a 100$ very cheap ETA (if that ever exists) to be a real case of apples and oranges.

For what it's worth, I have serviced an ETA 2824-2 at my school. Upon putting it on the timegrapher I got an incredible amplitude (I don't remember the exact numbers but it was going around 300° in all positions) and the watch's accuracy changes in all positions would be very small. I already knew that ETA made great movements but when you notice it yourself on a machine it's different, it's actually quite surprising how well it performed.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by soho

Mods - I meant to put this in the Rolex General Discussion forum. My apologies for the misfire, and please move if possible. Thanks.

This thread is not about Rolex nor Tudor but about other watches with ETA movements and therefore does not belong in Rolex Forum. Also I don't agree that they are overpriced at all. Now my PN white dial Daytona 6239 is overpriced for an ETA movement watch.



Carry on....

[incontrol]

I have several "micro brand" watches with ETA 2824-2 movements. None of them are Chronometer grade and all of them keep great time. I even play golf wearing them and they all run perfectly. I love my horologically (if that is a word!) superior watches, but I also enjoy their less expensive brothers!

[GB-man]

I have never had any issues with eta movements. In house does have a warm and cozy feeling but... with that aside I feel the pelagos is a damn cool watch and 4k is not crazy to me.

[mike]

I have a couple Ball watches with ETA movements that are Quartzlike in accuracy and consistency.

[watchupee]

Personally I don't see why people get caught up in the in house thing with basic three hand watches. I look for reliability, ruggedness, accuracy and if the movement is easily serviced. I like to take my watch to my watchmaker, and not have to mail my watch and be bent over for a basic service. As for the overpriced aspect most watches are "overpriced". You can buy a seiko sumo with great fit and finish, an in-house hacking and hand winding movement for under 500$ from Higuchi. But it's not Swiss so therefore gets looked down upon as inferior. Lately I have been a seiko kick. It took me a few years to get over the brainwashing of "Swiss Made" but it really is just hype IMO.

[Macro]

I view the in-house vs ETA thing as a bit like going to a restaurant and finding out that they are heating up frozen ready meals. I'd rather pay for someone to make the whole product, not just serve up someone else's product on a fancy plate.

To get back to watches, I love the designs of the Black Bay and Pelagos, but a lot of the price seems to be for the prestige of owning a baby Rolex, when in fact the movements are not the same.

I think Christopher Ward make cheapish watches with ETA mvmts, and they market themselves as premium quality.

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by Macro

I view the in-house vs ETA thing as a bit like going to a restaurant and finding out that they are heating up frozen ready meals. I'd rather pay for someone to make the whole product, not just serve up someone else's product on a fancy plate.

To get back to watches, I love the designs of the Black Bay and Pelagos, but a lot of the price seems to be for the prestige of owning a baby Rolex, when in fact the movements are not the same.

I think Christopher Ward make cheapish watches with ETA mvmts, and they market themselves as premium quality.

Really??? Frozen ready meals?
ETA is just as "in house" as any other movement.

Some of you are a marketing man's dream.
dP

[HDHNTER]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

Really??? Frozen ready meals?
ETA is just as "in house" as any other movement.

Some of you are a marketing man's dream.
dP

Loving my Pelagos that arrived a couple of hours ago & IMHO... it is the watch the SubC SHOULD have been.

[Wahlberg]

I like them a lot but for 3-4k euro I rather add the 2K and get a Rolex.

If they priced this watch at 2K it would be easier to justify.

[applebook]

It's pretty easy to find cheaper watches with the same or similar ETA movements as Tudors.

It's not that ETA movements are bad; it's that most of them are available in watches for significantly less than what some marketing machines like TAG charge for their basic watches.

Not all ETAs are the same. IWC, for example, completely reworks its ETA ebauches and produces the finest Valjoux 7750 chronograph you can find outside of the grand complications offered by a few other manufacturers (I believe UN). An ETA inside of an IWC uses mostly custom parts that cost the manufacturer money to produce.

Does Tudor do anything more than TAG (basic regulation, refinishing and a few part replacements)? TAG is a terrible value, and it's a good baseline on how companies should price basic ETA watches --below what TAG asks. "Asks" because few will pay a dime for a TAG outside of a retail store.

That Heritage chrono's price is bad considering that it uses an extremely undesirable, unreliable, and inferior module based movement. Something better from Sinn costs half the price.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Macro

I view the in-house vs ETA thing as a bit like going to a restaurant and finding out that they are heating up frozen ready meals. I'd rather pay for someone to make the whole product, not just serve up someone else's product on a fancy plate.

To get back to watches, I love the designs of the Black Bay and Pelagos, but a lot of the price seems to be for the prestige of owning a baby Rolex, when in fact the movements are not the same.

I think Christopher Ward make cheapish watches with ETA mvmts, and they market themselves as premium quality.

I love frozen meals from fancy restaurants!!

[Dan Pierce]

Worth a little frostbite, Ken!
dP

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

Worth a little frostbite, Ken!
dP

I think so my friend!

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by Macro

I view the in-house vs ETA thing as a bit like going to a restaurant and finding out that they are heating up frozen ready meals. I'd rather pay for someone to make the whole product, not just serve up someone else's product on a fancy plate.

To get back to watches, I love the designs of the Black Bay and Pelagos, but a lot of the price seems to be for the prestige of owning a baby Rolex, when in fact the movements are not the same.

I think Christopher Ward make cheapish watches with ETA mvmts, and they market themselves as premium quality.

Honestly I cannot see how this comparison could ever work and be used. No matter who makes the movement or not you cannot say it's less good because the movement comes from another brand if this brand cares to give a good quality control test to its product. Whether the movement comes from ETA, Lemania or any other brand, if it's well tested and built you should enjoy its accuracy and quality even if it's in an Omega, Longines or IWC case.

Perhaps it sounds cheap if watches come with movements from other companies but I believe some people should remember that even Rolex and Patek used non in-house movements not so long ago and that those very references are big time collectibles nowadays. The Zenith Daytona and the references 5970 or 3970 with Lemania chronographs are incredible timepieces and yet they were the result of an association with two good brands, same thing goes with, for instance, Tudor (or Longines...or a lot of other brands) and ETA's chronometer movements. Let's not forget that Blancpain and Audemars Piguet use Frederic Piguet movements in some of their references and that Jaeger-Lecoultre has been known to be a big provider of movements and ébauches for Cartier, Patek, Vacheron and other brands as well. If you ask me I wouldn't compare those names with frozen meals...

If we were talking about a 30 000$ watch with a movement unable to be more accurate than +/- 30 seconds a day then I could think about agreeing with you but when it comes to the brands mentioned so far I cannot see this analogy working.

[p_mcgee]

I like ETA movements. My ETA-based Panerai & IWC cost about $400 to get repaired while my in house PAM 233 will undoubtedly cost more than a grand to service. They are all about equally accurate & as has been mentioned not all ETA grades are the same.

[SearChart]

Upper ETA movements are of very high quality and they make great workhorse movements or as a base for a new movement.

[RolexWatcher]

What's wrong with ETA? They are the dominant movement manufacturer - in fact, they have an effective monopoly on movement manufacturing. No other company comes close in competing with them.

Just because they supply movements to a range of watch in different price segments doesn't mean their movements are bad.

[watchupee]

No need to re-invent the wheel for sake of prestige. Completely In-house is a relatively new phenomena in watchmaking brought on by the prestige wars.....There are always these ETA vs in-house posts by people relatively new to horology. I see these types of posts come and go quite frequently on various watch fora. Most of them come from relatively new enthusiasts that haven't dove too deep into the history of things. Once you do, it's like Alice and the rabbit hole....It goes deep and there are plenty of skeletons in many "prestigious" brand's closets, and plenty of smoke and mirrors.

[HDHNTER]

Originally Posted by watchupee

No need to re-invent the wheel for sake of prestige. Completely In-house is a relatively new phenomena in watchmaking brought on by the prestige wars.....There are always these ETA vs in-house posts by people relatively new to horology. I see these types of posts come and go quite frequently on various watch fora. Most of them come from relatively new enthusiasts that haven't dove too deep into the history of things. Once you do, it's like Alice and the rabbit hole....It goes deep and there are plenty of skeletons in many "prestigious" brand's closets, and plenty of smoke and mirrors.

[Macro]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

ETA is just as "in house" as any other movement.

Some of you are a marketing man's dream.
dP

I am not completely a marketing man's dream - I have seen very little to no Rolex marketing - apart from at F1. I choose to buy Rolex, Seiko and Casio if I want a robust quality watch, rather than buying a marketing-driven modern Tudor or Christopher Ward. I'd actually say I'm the opposite of a marketing man's dream in that I choose a watch based on the whole package of mvmt, history, quality, reliability, design, reputation, etc. rather than a fancy case, or a famous name with an off-the-shelf mvmt.

Not sure how 'ETA' is 'in-house' for non-Swatch brands.

As for frozen ready meals - some of these comments are deliberately tongue in cheek so please don't get worked up!!! I love a lot of watches, I just choose very carefully before spending money now!

I don't dispute that high grade ETA mvmts are accurate and reliable - but to me I'd rather buy a Rolex than something trying to market itself as as good as a Rolex.

To return to the original OP question, Tudor are great looking with a reasonable mvmt, but they are IMO expensive and certainly not the baby Rolex that some believe them to be.

[Macro]

Agreed.

Originally Posted by applebook

It's pretty easy to find cheaper watches with the same or similar ETA movements as Tudors.

It's not that ETA movements are bad; it's that most of them are available in watches for significantly less than what some marketing machines like TAG charge for their basic watches.

Not all ETAs are the same. IWC, for example, completely reworks its ETA ebauches and produces the finest Valjoux 7750 chronograph you can find outside of the grand complications offered by a few other manufacturers (I believe UN). An ETA inside of an IWC uses mostly custom parts that cost the manufacturer money to produce.

Does Tudor do anything more than TAG (basic regulation, refinishing and a few part replacements)? TAG is a terrible value, and it's a good baseline on how companies should price basic ETA watches --below what TAG asks. "Asks" because few will pay a dime for a TAG outside of a retail store.

That Heritage chrono's price is bad considering that it uses an extremely undesirable, unreliable, and inferior module based movement. Something better from Sinn costs half the price.

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by Macro

I am not completely a marketing man's dream - I have seen very little to no Rolex marketing - apart from at F1. I choose to buy Rolex, Seiko and Casio if I want a robust quality watch, rather than buying a marketing-driven modern Tudor or Christopher Ward. I'd actually say I'm the opposite of a marketing man's dream in that I choose a watch based on the whole package of mvmt, history, quality, reliability, design, reputation, etc. rather than a fancy case, or a famous name with an off-the-shelf mvmt.

Not sure how 'ETA' is 'in-house' for non-Swatch brands.

As for frozen ready meals - some of these comments are deliberately tongue in cheek so please don't get worked up!!! I love a lot of watches, I just choose very carefully before spending money now!

I don't dispute that high grade ETA mvmts are accurate and reliable - but to me I'd rather buy a Rolex than something trying to market itself as as good as a Rolex.

To return to the original OP question, Tudor are great looking with a reasonable mvmt, but they are IMO expensive and certainly not the baby Rolex that some believe them to be.

First of all, I don't buy baby Rolexes. I purchased the Tudors I own and wear them proudly because they offer the features and design I happen to prefer. I own a Rolex GMT because it's the best damn travelers watch ever made. To me, sometimes Rolex does it better, sometimes Tudor. I don't get hung up on the status BS.

Second, an ETA movement is "in house", just not the house you prefer. Nothing wrong with wanting a watch built completely by a single company, although that would also exclude Rolex until very recently. Rolex didn't even make their own bracelets until they purchased the company they sourced them from in the 1980's. Again, not something I loose any sleep over.

Third, although the frozen food comparison makes no sense IMHO, it was taken as tongue in cheek. However, comparing Tudor and Michael Ward is another matter.
dP

[HDHNTER]

Originally Posted by Macro

To return to the original OP question, Tudor are great looking with a reasonable mvmt, but they are IMO expensive and certainly not the baby Rolex that some believe them to be.

Baby Rolex, LMAO... if I wanted Rolex I wouldn't have sold off all of mine.

[soho]

Originally Posted by Macro

To return to the original OP question, Tudor are great looking with a reasonable mvmt, but they are IMO expensive and certainly not the baby Rolex that some believe them to be.

OP here. Actually, my original question was not whether Tudors are great (to me they are) or expensive, but rather what some of the cheaper-watches-with-same/similar-ETA-movements are. Apologies if I was unclear.

[And]

Try Sinn or Damasko.

I don't know what grade Valjoux 7750 my Damasko DC56 has but I know it's accurate to within 2 seconds a day no matter what the temperature or what position it's left in or whether I've mowed the lawn or rode my motor bike with it on. And that's good enough for me.