Is the SubC really a Submariner?

[htrap2294]

So a friend and I were having a discussion. He mentioned he loves Submariners, but does not like the newer models. I asked him why, seeing that the 6 digit Subs are made with better materials.

His logic was Speedmaster Professional Hesalite vs. Sapphire Sandwich. Even though the Sapphire Sandwich had the better materials, the Hesalite was the more coveted watch.

He also pointed out that the SubC is not really a Submariner because the case design is entirely different - it no longer harkens back to the days of the old. He felt with the new case design, an element that is Rolex was lost.


Thoughts? Opinions?

[rickc007]

I agree with the Speedmaster logic. Not so with the SubC

[jrs146]

Pretty much every iconic item has evolved over time. Imagine if the cars we drove today were still exactly like the original models. I don’t buy into these notions at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I wouldn’t let that influence your opinions either.


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[htrap2294]

Originally Posted by jrs146

Pretty much every iconic item has evolved over time. Imagine if the cars we drove today were still exactly like the original models. I don’t buy into these notions at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I wouldn’t let that influence your opinions either.


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You're absolutely right. I thought about this too. Take the 911 for example, it has changed so much. Is it recognizable still as a 911? Sure, so is the SubC. However, is it really the 911 in anything apart from name? Well, that is debatable. If one looks at a Singer 911, they go for more than any top of the line 911. It's not because it was better, but because it is as close to the original as possible.

That being said, my personal opinion is a SubC is still a Submariner BUT I can see the logic that some people do not believe it is.

[Nairn1980]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

You're absolutely right. I thought about this too. Take the 911 for example, it has changed so much. Is it recognizable still as a 911? Sure, so is the SubC. However, is it really the 911 in anything apart from name? Well, that is debatable. If one looks at a Singer 911, they go for more than any top of the line 911. It's not because it was better, but because it is as close to the original as possible.

That being said, my personal opinion is a SubC is still a Submariner BUT I can see the logic that some people do not believe it is.

Agree with this

[cht]

The hesalite wasn't just a more "coveted" watch, it has a design and engineering purpose to contract and expand with temperature change.

The submariner materials offer no improvement in its function other than bling.

[FTX I]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

He also pointed out that the SubC is not really a Submariner because the case design is entirely different - it no longer harkens back to the days of the old. He felt with the new case design, an element that is Rolex was lost.


Thoughts? Opinions?

Sorry but I think your friend is full of it.

[htrap2294]

Originally Posted by FTX I

Sorry but I think your friend is full of it.

We all are at times, no? That's what makes opinions!

[FTX I]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

We all are at times, no? That's what makes opinions!

Maybe.

[DtownRRS]

If it's not, what does your friend say it is? Is he saying the Sub is dead and it should be marketed as a completely new watch? Just curious on where his train of logic would be going.

[Tmac478]

It's a sub because Rolex says it's a sub.

[traf]

I think your friend’s view is a bit dramatic. If you prefer the old one, buy and wear that. I also prefer the 5 digit sub, so that’s what I wear 🥃




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[904VT]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

So a friend and I were having a discussion. He mentioned he loves Submariners, but does not like the newer models. I asked him why, seeing that the 6 digit Subs are made with better materials.

His logic was Speedmaster Professional Hesalite vs. Sapphire Sandwich. Even though the Sapphire Sandwich had the better materials, the Hesalite was the more coveted watch.

He also pointed out that the SubC is not really a Submariner because the case design is entirely different - it no longer harkens back to the days of the old. He felt with the new case design, an element that is Rolex was lost.


Thoughts? Opinions?

The modern SubC 114060 shares more design cues from the early 6204s than the 5 digit 14060s do imo. 114060s and big crowns same shape case too

[htrap2294]

Originally Posted by DtownRRS

If it's not, what does your friend say it is? Is he saying the Sub is dead and it should be marketed as a completely new watch? Just curious on where his train of logic would be going.

Yes, his view was a bit extreme and thought that Rolex should give it an entirely new name. Do I agree with this opinion? No, but it was an interesting conversation and thought perhaps it would be worth posting here to get opinions.

[lenfried29]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

So a friend and I were having a discussion. He mentioned he loves Submariners, but does not like the newer models. I asked him why, seeing that the 6 digit Subs are made with better materials.

His logic was Speedmaster Professional Hesalite vs. Sapphire Sandwich. Even though the Sapphire Sandwich had the better materials, the Hesalite was the more coveted watch.

He also pointed out that the SubC is not really a Submariner because the case design is entirely different - it no longer harkens back to the days of the old. He felt with the new case design, an element that is Rolex was lost.


Thoughts? Opinions?

eternal discussion - Old vs. New

[DoctorA]

Originally Posted by jrs146

Pretty much every iconic item has evolved over time. Imagine if the cars we drove today were still exactly like the original models. I don’t buy into these notions at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I wouldn’t let that influence your opinions either.


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I agree with that logic!

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

Is the SubC really a Submariner?

Yes

[htrap2294]

Originally Posted by traf

I think your friend’s view is a bit dramatic. If you prefer the old one, buy and wear that. I also prefer the 5 digit sub, so that’s what I wear 🥃




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I personally like both. I find for the SS models, the 6 digit looks better. However, the TT and Gold Sub look better in the 5 digit models. Why? Well, the 5 digit is an inherently a slimmer watch - so if you are putting PM on them, it makes sense on the slimmer watch as it will appear more elegant.

However, for the SS models, they look better with the 6 digit case because it makes them chunky which is a good look for SS.

[AEC]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

You're absolutely right. I thought about this too. Take the 911 for example, it has changed so much. Is it recognizable still as a 911? Sure, so is the SubC. However, is it really the 911 in anything apart from name? Well, that is debatable. If one looks at a Singer 911, they go for more than any top of the line 911. It's not because it was better, but because it is as close to the original as possible.

That being said, my personal opinion is a SubC is still a Submariner BUT I can see the logic that some people do not believe it is.

I agree. I love my 6-digit Submariner, and I miss my air-cooled 911 terribly!

[rickc007]

I had read this too, one of the reasons the Speedmaster was chosen for NASA was it passed tests that others didn't. And one was other watches crystals popped out due to pressure, but the hesalite had more give.

Making the crystal saphire changes that

Originally Posted by cht

The hesalite wasn't just a more "coveted" watch, it has a design and engineering purpose to contract and expand with temperature change.

The submariner materials offer no improvement in its function other than bling.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by Tmac478

It's a sub because Rolex says it's a sub.

X2. In today's world no one likes to be told they are wrong. They like to equate their opinion as a valid truth and must be respected so. Your friend is wrong.

Rolex is the only authority that can say what it is and they say is a "Submariner". This fact is absolute.

[Maiden]

I guess in your friends mind anything ever made that evolves is never the original and we must change the name. Interesting logic.

[lmmrf]

Originally Posted by rickc007

I agree with the Speedmaster logic. Not so with the SubC

Interesting take given that the changes from 5-digit sub to 6-digit sub were far more significant than Omega simply switching the Speedmaster crystal from hesalite to sapphire; every other aspect of the Speedmaster remained virtually identical to the original from the 1960s.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by FTX I

Sorry but I think your friend is full of it.

X2. The Sub in it's current configuration has been made for 10 years now. It is still iconic to millions and one of the most desired pieces in the world.

[KBM]

Totally different is indeed dramatic. Put a 114060 and a 6538 side by side and it's obvious it's an evolution of the same watch.

While we're at it, I don't think Episode I should be called Star Wars.

[Likestheshiny]

Nothing got worse; several things got better. Functionality only improved, and the design cues are still there.

Anyone who looks at a modern sub and doesn't think it's a sub is just groping in the dark for some sort of smug pedestal to stand on.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

You're absolutely right. I thought about this too. Take the 911 for example, it has changed so much. Is it recognizable still as a 911? Sure, so is the SubC. However, is it really the 911 in anything apart from name? Well, that is debatable. If one looks at a Singer 911, they go for more than any top of the line 911. It's not because it was better, but because it is as close to the original as possible.

That being said, my personal opinion is a SubC is still a Submariner BUT I can see the logic that some people do not believe it is.

Some people? Your "friend" is the first I have ever heard of on this forum, or out in the real world.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by htrap2294

I personally like both. I find for the SS models, the 6 digit looks better. However, the TT and Gold Sub look better in the 5 digit models. Why? Well, the 5 digit is an inherently a slimmer watch - so if you are putting PM on them, it makes sense on the slimmer watch as it will appear more elegant.

However, for the SS models, they look better with the 6 digit case because it makes them chunky which is a good look for SS.

Here ya go.

[Dsmith1974]

Agree with the Speedy up to a point. The sandwich is not NASA certified and therefore not a moonwatch, but then again the Speedmaster predates the space program and wasn’t designed for space travel in the first place.

Does anyone know which Rolex Swiggert took on the Apollo mission? I think it may’be been a GMT, did he have to smuggle it on board and what happened to it?

[DahMan]

I traded 5 digit, for 6 digit, I got tired of always seeing nicks, and wear on the Bezel.
The 6 is just about perfect, with fit and finish.