New to Omega, looking to purchase my first speed master. Need advice

[Parapraxis]

Hey guys,

I've always told myself I'll have a speed master in the collection one day. But to be honest, there are just so many and they're all (from the outside looking in) the same. They also keep making more. None of them hold their value particularly well. And speedy owners can be a bit pretentious. So I've avoided taking the dive for some time.

But there is no denying the history behind this model line. Also, omega has been making some really good watches lately, I must admit. As such, I'm ready to start learning more and maybe buy my first piece.

My vague research thus far has led me to the new 321 Ed white release from last year. It's super loaded with history. That calibre is beautiful to look at through the display case back. And most practical of all, it's a reasonable size. Yes, it's expensive, but it's holding it's value well so that's always reassuring (not that I'm looking to sell).

So I'm thinking of approaching my AD to request this piece. But wanted to confirm with the wisdom of the enthusiasts first for any advice/suggestions. Any and all info will be appreciated.


Cheers

[AEC]

Heck yeah, that's a nice choice. I don't know, you claim to be confused, but it sounds to me like you have it figured out. Calling me pretentious wasn't very nice, though.

[C0d]

Gorgeous watch.

Last I checked there was waiting list on those. And no they aren't holding their value, they are seeking for 20% or so premium in the used market.

[logo]

Parapraxis: “Speedy owners are pretentious, they don’t hold value and the watches all look the same.”

Also Parapraxis: “I want an Ed White 321.”

lol

Jokes aside, the 321 is a nice watch for the right person - it’s an extremely niche watch though. The movement is great, but ultimately for me I want a moon watch, and sadly Ed White did not go to the moon. So it’s twisted lugs a la Buzz and Neil, or bust for me. Not to mention the lack of hesalite on that watch burns my soul just a little. If you are not a NASA die hard I’d advise going the way of an 1861 or 3861. Immediately available, less $$$, looks the same to the non-Speedmaster aficionado (and still look great), and are every bit as remarkable a time piece, not to mention they are holding value pretty decently per Chrono24 if that’s important to you. The history is in Speedmaster DNA, every model. The current Ed White is an homage to history, not history itself - Not like the current edition of the Ed White is an exact replica of what NASA strapped onto space suits.

There’s no universally wrong answer when it comes to speedmasters, but you do have to spend time finding what is the best suited version for you.

[1William]

I am an Omega and Speedmaster fan and currently own the 1861, 3861, DSOTM Vintage Black and a GSOTM. They currently get more than half of the wrist time and I do not see that changing. I like the 321 but am not there as far as cost, even if I could get one from an AD, and this is a watch that is for the true aficionado. My 1861 lives on aftermarket straps and bracelets and I have a lot of fun playing with the different configurations. The 3861 on the new bracelet is great, timing is perfect and I do like the changes to the dial. The larger, 44.25 mm DSOTM/GSOTM are fun on the OEM straps but I wear them more on the Omega NATO's. The values on the 1861/3861's have been consistent for the last bit and if you buy right you should not lose much money on a sale or a trade. I would go talk to your AD and see what the prognosis is on getting a 321 and what they will do on the price of a 3861 or if they have any stock on the 1861/1863 and what they will charge. Several of our Trusted Sellers have both new and pre-owned Speedmasters for some very fair prices. I would buy a 1861/1863/3861 and see if the watch works for you before I dropped the money on a 321. The Speedmaster also wears much smaller than the advertised 42mm. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[Parapraxis]

This is really helpful advice guys, thanks so much.

Yes, the 321 is crazy expensive. But if it's my one-and-done speed master, it was why I was considering it. Value retention is important to me. Again, not because I'm a flipper, but because I'm a young collector and at this point in my life I need to know my money is somewhat safe before spending it.

You guys make good points about the 1861/3861. Could you guys educate me a bit on the difference? I know there are different crystals as well, it all gets a bit confusing.

PS. I didn't mean ALL speedy owners are pretentious, just some can be (like any brand). Thanks for the help guys

[raclaims]

I don’t think personally the 321 is expensive. I think in fact the opposite

It’s a terrific piece and you’ll see much fewer on wrists than daytonas

Get a 321 you will not be disappointed

[gnuyork]

This is what I understand, though I am no expert...

The 1861 is the long running tried and true movement based on the 861, which was a variation of the 321 movement.

The 3861 is the latest METAS coaxial movement and so far for me it's been remarkable for accuracy. It also adds hacking and hand winding.

As far as 1861/1863...the 1861 is the moonwatch with a Hesalite crystal, the 1863 is the sapphire sandwich, both top and display case back are sapphire. The 1863 movement is slightly different than the 1861, some plastic parts are swapped for metal due to seeing the movement.

For the 3861, there is no difference in the movement, but there still is the choice of the Hesalite/solid case back and the Sapphire sandwich. The newer 3861s have a slightly different case, they are thinner than the 1861/1863 variants, which to me is a good thing. The lug flow twist is a bit different too.

The bracelet on the 3861 seems to be a love it or hate thing. For me it's love. It's tapers nicely, lighter, and feels very comfortable. The bracelet on the 1861 is more hefty and bulky and does not have as extreme of a taper, but if you like to feel the heft, then it's preferable.

There are dial differences between he 1861 and 3861... the newer 3861 seems to have a deeper black dial, and it's also stepped. There are less division between the minute markers on the 3861 that better align with the frequency of the movement. Some feel that it makes the dial less clear, and I must admit, I sort of felt that way in the beginning from photos, but it's not much of an issue in person, and in fact I have come to prefer this dial. Could be confirmation bias though.

Also the 42mm Speedmaster wears more like a 40mm because the case measurements are measured to include the crown guards, which are incorporated into the asymmetrical case.

The dial and bezel size of the 42mm Speedmaster moon watch and the 321 Ed White (or the FOIS) are identical in size. I have tried on the FOIS and while it seemed to wear a bit smaller, the straight lugs gave the mid case more of a slab feeling, making it seemingly chunky. The twisted lugs on the moonwatch seem to mask that beautifully.

I have the 3861 Hesalite and I love everything about this watch. In a perfect world (for my wrist) it would be 40mm (to include the crown guards). I tried the Speedy reduced and it wore tot small for me. Something in between would be ideal... but then it wouldn't be the moon watch.


Between the 1861/63, the 3861, and the 321 I don't think you can pick a wrong Speedmaster.

[Stevec14]

I say go for the 321. I have it, and it’s the perfect watch for me. Just brilliant. Good luck getting one

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by Parapraxis

None of them hold their value particularly well.

Which speedmasters don't hold their value?

[logo]

Originally Posted by Parapraxis

This is really helpful advice guys, thanks so much.

Yes, the 321 is crazy expensive. But if it's my one-and-done speed master, it was why I was considering it. Value retention is important to me. Again, not because I'm a flipper, but because I'm a young collector and at this point in my life I need to know my money is somewhat safe before spending it.

You guys make good points about the 1861/3861. Could you guys educate me a bit on the difference? I know there are different crystals as well, it all gets a bit confusing.

PS. I didn't mean ALL speedy owners are pretentious, just some can be (like any brand). Thanks for the help guys

Let’s start at the beginning with the 321 movement. This was the movement that was in the original Speedmaster that NASA tested to be approved for space missions. You can Google the tests they did, and it should show how robust the watch really is. Originally, the speedmaster had flat lugs and no crown guard, as you see on the Ed White.it was never intended as a space watch at that time, and was borrowed from racing. The original would have had a closed case back, an aluminum bezel and a hesalite crystal. The hesalite served a purpose - when it cracks, it does not break into a thousand pieces which would be very bad in a small space ship. Also important, who was Ed White? He was not the first person in space, not the first to do a space walk, and was never on the moon (he died in the Apollo 1 explosion). He was simply the first American to do a space walk, and the first to wear a Speedmaster doing so. So it’s important to recognize his celebrated achievement is from Omegas perspective as the first to wear their watch doing an EVA, not due to a space milestone in general. It was also not the first Omega in space, but if you like the Ed White aesthetic, the first Omega in space ref is a great option to consider at a lower cost.

Anyway, with that came the Speedmaster professional branding, twisted lugs and crown guards - still with the 321 movement, hesalite glass and an aluminum bezel. These would likely be the ones that NASA officially issued, and we’re on the wrists of Neil and Buzz on Apollo 11, actually making it outside the Lunar lander and onto the lunar surface with Buzz. From that point onward, it was a Moonwatch, and the appearance has been largely unchanged to this day - still twisted lugs, crown guards, aluminum bezel and available in hesalite.

Around 1969, Omega switched from a 321 to a 861 movement. The primary difference being how the chronograph function works, with the 321 using a column wheel vs a cam system in the 861 which was cheaper to produce and maintain. The 861 was really based off the 321 though. The 861 watches were re-tested by NASA, also achieving the tag of approved for manned space missions. Again, these were all hesalite and closed case back. The 861 would have been used on the skylab missions in the 70s, and there’s some debate whether it also went to the moon on the later Apollo missions. It has logged a significant amount of time in space).

The 861 became the 1861 in the mid 90s. The only difference was rhodium plated parts, so no retesting was necessary - it’s basically the same movement and watch that was produced from 1969 up to 2021, which is pretty amazing. The 1861 was used on space shuttle missions, by the Russian cosmonauts as well. Also lots of time in space.

In 2021 the 3861 was released. The movement is completely different, bearing no resemblance to the 321 or the 861/1861. It is coaxial and is without a doubt the “better” movement. However, it was not flight tested by NASA - apparently Omega did their own testing. It’s not a big deal anymore because astronauts wear whatever they want now, but to me it just slightly removes itself from the historical lineage because of that, and the lack of space hours currently. In other ways though, the aesthetic detail is a bit more true to the 1969 321 watches with the dot over 90 bezel and a slightly deeper step dial compared to the 1861.

Important to know that Omega has used tons of different bracelets throughout the years, so mixing and matching what you like is very reasonable.

Return to moon watches and the Mars watch for the current space program is TBD, but I suspect it won’t be a speedmaster. For what it’s worth, Bezos had a 3861 speedmaster for his blue origin flight lol.

All that to say, the 321 movement has history, no doubt. But so do all the others. And for me, I would have rather a 321 in a speedmaster pro case to celebrate the moonwatch (an accomplishment for mankind), rather than to celebrate Omegas first watch on a space walk on Ed Whites wrist (omegas achievement).

[gnuyork]

Originally Posted by logo

And for me, I would have rather a 321 in a speedmaster pro case to celebrate the moonwatch (an accomplishment for mankind), rather than to celebrate Omegas first watch on a space walk on Ed Whites wrist (omegas achievement).

Yes, a 321 in a Professional case, aluminum bezel would be the one

[BendyBee]

If u can wait or dont mind paying extra, you will not be disappointed with 321. The movement alone is worth having just to look at. If not, 3861 it is. Personally, 321 for me.

[Jayhawks]

Great post!

Agree on all points. I have an 1861, 3861, DSOTM, and Speedy Racing Chronometer...as well as two Seamasters. All told, Omega is on my wrist 75% of the time with an Explorer and Sub making up the difference. In my opinion, the Speedys are so much more interesting to look at than my other watches. I appreciate the others for what they represent: icons, simplicity, etc., but that twinkle in your eye when you strap them up is lacking in comparison. Also, the Speedy Pro is a chameleon with its uncanny ability to accommodate almost any strap. A new strap many times = a new watch, in my experience.

Good luck and and report back!

Originally Posted by 1William

I am an Omega and Speedmaster fan and currently own the 1861, 3861, DSOTM Vintage Black and a GSOTM. They currently get more than half of the wrist time and I do not see that changing. I like the 321 but am not there as far as cost, even if I could get one from an AD, and this is a watch that is for the true aficionado. My 1861 lives on aftermarket straps and bracelets and I have a lot of fun playing with the different configurations. The 3861 on the new bracelet is great, timing is perfect and I do like the changes to the dial. The larger, 44.25 mm DSOTM/GSOTM are fun on the OEM straps but I wear them more on the Omega NATO's. The values on the 1861/3861's have been consistent for the last bit and if you buy right you should not lose much money on a sale or a trade. I would go talk to your AD and see what the prognosis is on getting a 321 and what they will do on the price of a 3861 or if they have any stock on the 1861/1863 and what they will charge. Several of our Trusted Sellers have both new and pre-owned Speedmasters for some very fair prices. I would buy a 1861/1863/3861 and see if the watch works for you before I dropped the money on a 321. The Speedmaster also wears much smaller than the advertised 42mm. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[Oyster Sauce]

321 would definitely be my top choice -- as good as it gets in a modern Speedy

[htc8p]

the cal 321 is the most unique speedmaster. my AD says that you just have to pre order and it is sure to arrive for you.

it seems really dated but beautifully made. if you want expensive patek philippe level speedmaster, then that is what you want.

personally im not that big of a fan but i would definitely know it if i saw it in the real world

[Parapraxis]

Hey guys,

Thanks so much. This has been amazingly helpful. The comments you've provided plus some additional research I've done these past 2 days has now allowed me to have a decent grasp of the speedmaster line. Which seemed impossible just a week ago when I was daunted by the task of trying to make sense of it all.

Just to clarify a few points:
- when people say "first omega in space" (FOIS) they are referring to a 321 movement? so the Ed White is a FOIS?
- whereas, "first watch on the moon" (FWOM) are the 861/1861/3861 lineage?
- and the FOIS is the first Omega in space, not the first watch in space right? So really that milestone is important to Omega but not really to anyone else? Whereas, Omega being the first watch on the moon is a huge milestone across the watch market?
- what exactly is meant by twisted lugs? I've seen that term a few times.
- also, what's all this craze about the Snoopy edition?

Thanks guys!

[GTS Dean]

Originally Posted by Parapraxis

Hey guys,

Thanks so much. This has been amazingly helpful. Which seemed impossible just a week ago when I was daunted by the task of trying to make sense of it all.

Just to clarify a few points:

- whereas, "first watch on the moon" (FWOM) are the 861/1861/3861 lineage?

Thanks guys!

"Moonwatch" is 321/861/1861 series with twisted lugs and crown guards. These have been certified by NASA for EVA duty, vs inside space craft use.

"Twisted" refers to the sculpted machining of the case lugs where they join the bracelet/strap.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

Which speedmasters don't hold their value?

?

[gnuyork]

Originally Posted by Parapraxis

Just to clarify a few points:
- when people say "first omega in space" (FOIS) they are referring to a 321 movement? so the Ed White is a FOIS?

No the FOIS (First Omega in Space) is different than the 321 Ed White... they share the same style case but that is about it. The FOIS has an 1861 movement in it (I believe), aluminum bezel, and different dial and case back, and only comes on a leather strap.

[logo]

Originally Posted by Parapraxis

Hey guys,

Thanks so much. This has been amazingly helpful. The comments you've provided plus some additional research I've done these past 2 days has now allowed me to have a decent grasp of the speedmaster line. Which seemed impossible just a week ago when I was daunted by the task of trying to make sense of it all.

Just to clarify a few points:
- when people say "first omega in space" (FOIS) they are referring to a 321 movement? so the Ed White is a FOIS?

The First Omega in Space (FOIS) is a watch that was reissued by Omega to commemorate... the first Omega in space (the Ref CK 2998). That actual first Omega in space, CK 2998 went up in 1962 on Walter Schirra's wrist during the Mercury program. I believe the CK 2998 would have had a 321 movement, which would have been new at that time, and the case has no crown guards and straight lugs - same as the Ed White. The hands are different from the speedmasters from 1965 onward. I think the reissue FOIS has a cal 1861.

- whereas, "first watch on the moon" (FWOM) are the 861/1861/3861 lineage?

First watch on the moon is better represented specifically as ref 145.022, which is what Buzz wore. This had a 321 movement, twisted lugs, crown guards and Speedmaster Professional on the dial, in contrast to the reference worn by Ed White which was a generation earlier in the speedmaster lineage - 321 movement still, but not yet a Speedmaster Professional, as it had straight lugs and no crown guards and just said "Speedmaster" on the dial. In 1969, the 321 movement was replaced with the 861 and there is some thought that the 861 also went to the moon on later Apollo missions, or at minimum orbited the moon. The 1861 is essentially the 861 as I mentioned above, with the 3861 being totally different. The movement is one part of the lineage of the moonwatch, but the Speedmaster Professional designation and aesthetic is the most important part - it's what makes a speedmaster a moonwatch or not.

- and the FOIS is the first Omega in space, not the first watch in space right? So really that milestone is important to Omega but not really to anyone else? Whereas, Omega being the first watch on the moon is a huge milestone across the watch market?

Correct, and same deal for Ed White. The watch he wore was the first Omega to be worn during an EVA, but Ed White was not the first to do an EVA. So it's a watch that was important to Omega and Ed White, but not really in the broader watch context nor in the broader space exploration context. TBH it's a bit odd they did the Ed White as the modern 321 incarnation and not a reissue of the CK 2998 (FOIS) or as the 145.022 reissue, as to me the Ed White bit is neither here nor there.

- what exactly is meant by twisted lugs? I've seen that term a few times.

Have a look at the modern Ed White 321 - notice the lugs are straight almost like a datejust, and there are no crown guards, leaving the pushers to stick out prominently. This is what makes this watch a 39mm.

Then google a modern 3861 speedmaster professional. Note there are guards for the pushers, which makes the watch a 42mm (the bezel and dial are the exact same size as the Ed White, it's just that the case measurement extends out closer to the pushers and crown, so it wears quite similarly). Also note that the lugs have a ridge down the middle, as though they have been twisted inward towards the bracelet, giving them a slightly broader look than the Ed White straight lugs.

- also, what's all this craze about the Snoopy edition?

Good question.

Thanks guys!

See my answers above. As I mentioned before, the Ed White 321 is quite the niche watch and I'd suggest doing more research before deciding on that one. There are many variations to the speedmaster so it's important to think about the reason behind the purchase of one model over another, and for me I just find the selection of specifically the Ed White ref as the 321 incarnation a bit odd by Omega. Also, I think most would argue the bracelet on the 321 is a major selling feature, and I'd agree. So to help compare apples to apples a bit better, have a look at this video of an Apollo 11 50th anniversary bracelet (which can be ordered from an Omega boutique, and is the same as the Ed White 321, but with 20mm lugs). The owner has attached it to an 1861 speedmaster. Stunning!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br3PSfa3zM0

[Xv1]

Originally Posted by logo

See my answers above. As I mentioned before, the Ed White 321 is quite the niche watch and I'd suggest doing more research before deciding on that one. There are many variations to the speedmaster so it's important to think about the reason behind the purchase of one model over another, and for me I just find the selection of specifically the Ed White ref as the 321 incarnation a bit odd by Omega. Also, I think most would argue the bracelet on the 321 is a major selling feature, and I'd agree. So to help compare apples to apples a bit better, have a look at this video of an Apollo 11 50th anniversary bracelet (which can be ordered from an Omega boutique, and is the same as the Ed White 321, but with 20mm lugs). The owner has attached it to an 1861 speedmaster. Stunning!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br3PSfa3zM0

Wow, that IS nice!!!

[mquarter]

How hard is it to get at retail from an Omega OB? E.g. for Snoopy you've got no chance, what about for Ed White?

[logo]

Originally Posted by logo

See my answers above. As I mentioned before, the Ed White 321 is quite the niche watch and I'd suggest doing more research before deciding on that one. There are many variations to the speedmaster so it's important to think about the reason behind the purchase of one model over another, and for me I just find the selection of specifically the Ed White ref as the 321 incarnation a bit odd by Omega. Also, I think most would argue the bracelet on the 321 is a major selling feature, and I'd agree. So to help compare apples to apples a bit better, have a look at this video of an Apollo 11 50th anniversary bracelet (which can be ordered from an Omega boutique, and is the same as the Ed White 321, but with 20mm lugs). The owner has attached it to an 1861 speedmaster. Stunning!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br3PSfa3zM0

Adding some clarification as I miswrote a ref number:

Ref 145.022 came out in 1968, some had the 321 movement before transitioning to the 861 in the same ref number. Damn omega confusing us. Some of these may have been on later moon missions with the 861, but at minimum orbited the moon and certainly the Skylab missions had the 861.

Ref 105.012 was what Buzz wore.

Ref 145.012 is what many of the other astronauts who went to the moon wore.


Main point is that at minimum a moon watch has: Twisted lugs and crown guards, Speedmaster professional designation.

Additionally, many would argue it must have hesalite crystal. Others will want it to have a dot over 90 bezel in aluminum.

Add all of the above with a 321 movement and that’s a glorious thing that hopefully omega will one day release.