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Old 22 May 2020, 07:02 PM   #1
Nutkunkup
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Got a call for 5167R from AD but..

Hi,

Just got a call from AD about 5167R but AD ask me to buy it as a bundle (watch’s price at least $50,000).

Are AD in US or Europe do this ?

Thanks
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Old 22 May 2020, 09:06 PM   #2
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Please do yourself a favor and call Patek in Switzerland +41 (22) 8842020 and ask them if this business practice is something they support. Let them know of the dealer in questions as well as am sure they'd want to know.

As for the dealer's 'offer', you know the truth deep in your heart. Your having to post here on TRF and asking tells the sad tale. :(

Again, please call Patek as they need to know about this dealer situation. If not for you, please do it for the next person who may have to suffer from this business practice by that dealer. Thank you.
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Old 22 May 2020, 10:27 PM   #3
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That’s bad but heard it goes on, would avoid this dealer out of principle.
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Old 22 May 2020, 11:53 PM   #4
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I’ve been offered watches above msrp before from ADs
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Old 23 May 2020, 12:01 AM   #5
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It’s definitely annoying, but on the flip side I don’t complain when the AD gives me a discount so why should I complain when they charge more, the fact is it’s very difficult paying the AD game, it’s a balancing act, on the one hand they can’t sell anything above the msrp on the other hand all the non in demand watches they can’t sell for msrp we all expect discounts? When was the last time somone spent full price on a JLc/IWC/Chopard/ect. We can’t have it both ways. The AD is in the business to make money they are very transparent about that, the issue is now collectors also got into the businesses to make money And that’s in direct competition to the dealers
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Old 23 May 2020, 12:49 AM   #6
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Happens in Asia I know for sure. Sad.

What’s the other watch, if he is specifying one? Or your choice on what to spend $50k?
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Old 23 May 2020, 01:22 AM   #7
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I've visited the Salon in Geneva 3 times in the last 2 years, to buy accessories for my watches (navy blue straps for 5524, 5172 strap for my 5212, white deployant...) and during my time there, whilst waiting for staff to bring me my things / handling payment / doing tax refund, each time I have overheard the staff telling customers something like this in English (and one time in Mandarin Chinese):

Staff: "You can't just buy a Nautilus, you need to buy other watches first, such as the beautiful pilot's watch or an annual calendar or a ladies' watch, and then you can buy the Nautilus ..."

Customer: "So can I buy a Nautilus and an Aquanaut after buying a pilot's watch?"

Staff: "No, you have to buy one or two more watches before you can buy the Aquanaut, so you need to have one or two watches in between ... the same rules apply in your country and also here in Geneva ... so you can only buy a sports watch after buying a few other watches...."

It actually shocked me how direct they were to the customers, who were seated in the salon and asking to see/buy Nautilus/Aquanauts.

So basically Patek knows this type of bundling - whether you're getting 2 watches at the same time as a bundle, or "bundling over a period of time" by getting a dress watch first and a sports watch later ...
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Old 23 May 2020, 01:26 AM   #8
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Yup you bet they do! They know good and well what goes on, as long as the perception that they care is there then they are fine with it, the fact is the flippers have been thier biggest partners for many many years now and they know it, it’s Only becoming an issue now because of all the publicity.

Flippers are the ones that get the watch from the market where there is no buyers for that particular ref, and get it in to someone’s wrist many tiresome over.
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Old 23 May 2020, 01:38 AM   #9
Murcielagoboy2
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Originally Posted by qrc36 View Post
I've visited the Salon in Geneva 3 times in the last 2 years, to buy accessories for my watches (navy blue straps for 5524, 5172 strap for my 5212, white deployant...) and during my time there, whilst waiting for staff to bring me my things / handling payment / doing tax refund, each time I have overheard the staff telling customers something like this in English (and one time in Mandarin Chinese):

Staff: "You can't just buy a Nautilus, you need to buy other watches first, such as the beautiful pilot's watch or an annual calendar or a ladies' watch, and then you can buy the Nautilus ..."

Customer: "So can I buy a Nautilus and an Aquanaut after buying a pilot's watch?"

Staff: "No, you have to buy one or two more watches before you can buy the Aquanaut, so you need to have one or two watches in between ... the same rules apply in your country and also here in Geneva ... so you can only buy a sports watch after buying a few other watches...."

It actually shocked me how direct they were to the customers, who were seated in the salon and asking to see/buy Nautilus/Aquanauts.

So basically Patek knows this type of bundling - whether you're getting 2 watches at the same time as a bundle, or "bundling over a period of time" by getting a dress watch first and a sports watch later ...

I don't consider this bundling to be honest.

Demand for sports Patek **currently** exceeds supply by a long way. Each AD has over 50 people a day coming in asking for a Nautilus who have no relationship with the brand (of which 40 are speculators who think they'll make a quick buck). AD/Geneva now have a choice. Tell people:

"I don't know you. I get very few Nautilus every year. They go to loyal customers who are proven fans of the brand and not just interested in a speculative fad. So get out of my store and get lost"
OR
"I don't know you. I get very few Nautilus every year. Here are some other watches which you may want to consider, and in time with some purchase history and demonstrable enthusiasm for the brand, we may be able to allocate you a hard-to-get model."

Telling people the latter isn't bundling. What those guys in Geneva appeared to be saying wasn't bundling.


Bundling is when you walk into an AD, demand a 5711, he doesn't know you, doesn't care about your future business, or whether you're a speculator, and and he says, "you can take my 5711 in the back if you buy this 5327 and a 5270 right now".

That's bundling.
At least that's my view.

Pity. The whole brand is being soiled by the desperate need for two lines of Patek which aren't even their most beautiful offerings... :shakes head and sighs:
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Old 23 May 2020, 01:53 AM   #10
YYR
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Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2 View Post
I don't consider this bundling to be honest.

Demand for sports Patek **currently** exceeds supply by a long way. Each AD has over 50 people a day coming in asking for a Nautilus who have no relationship with the brand (of which 40 are speculators who think they'll make a quick buck). AD/Geneva now have a choice. Tell people:

"I don't know you. I get very few Nautilus every year. They go to loyal customers who are proven fans of the brand and not just interested in a speculative fad. So get out of my store and get lost"
OR
"I don't know you. I get very few Nautilus every year. Here are some other watches which you may want to consider, and in time with some purchase history and demonstrable enthusiasm for the brand, we may be able to allocate you a hard-to-get model."

Telling people the latter isn't bundling. What those guys in Geneva appeared to be saying wasn't bundling.


Bundling is when you walk into an AD, demand a 5711, he doesn't know you, doesn't care about your future business, or whether you're a speculator, and and he says, "you can take my 5711 in the back if you buy this 5327 and a 5270 right now".

That's bundling.
At least that's my view.

Pity. The whole brand is being soiled by the desperate need for two lines of Patek which aren't even their most beautiful offerings... :shakes head and sighs:
Well said I think you explained this nicely
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Old 23 May 2020, 02:03 AM   #11
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Right Murcielagoboy2 I see what you mean. Patek does it because it can.

Hermès does the same ..... buy lots of non-leather stuff and you can get a Kelly or Birkin.
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Old 23 May 2020, 02:08 AM   #12
Murcielagoboy2
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Right Murcielagoboy2 I see what you mean. Patek does it because it can.

Hermès does the same ..... buy lots of non-leather stuff and you can get a Kelly or Birkin.
My friend, I think Patek (Hermes/Ferrari etc) does it because they need a fair way of allocating hard-to-get pieces - and quite rightly, the fairest way, is that they go to their most loyal customers.
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Old 23 May 2020, 02:23 AM   #13
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Pass, unless your bundle is in your favor (which it likely is not otherwise it wouldn't be a "condition" to get your 5167R).

You can get a brand new 5167R for 10 to 15% above retail if you're patient and persistent.
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Old 23 May 2020, 02:32 AM   #14
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Happens in Asia I know for sure. Sad.

What’s the other watch, if he is specifying one? Or your choice on what to spend $50k?
$50k of my choice but most of them are not popular model and it’s look not fit to me and some are ladies.
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Old 23 May 2020, 04:36 AM   #15
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So basically Patek knows this type of bundling - whether you're getting 2 watches at the same time as a bundle, or "bundling over a period of time" by getting a dress watch first and a sports watch later ...
I'd still call Patek in Switzerland and let them know of the situation. That's certainly NOT how they did things years ago. Has Patek become an even worse company than i imagined???

OP, if you want PM me the dealer's name and I'll call Patek for you, because as a journalist I'm curious if they approve of this type of activity.
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Old 23 May 2020, 06:32 AM   #16
YYR
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Officially they do, In actuality they know that this gets thier pieces sold
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Old 23 May 2020, 08:34 AM   #17
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I'd still call Patek in Switzerland and let them know of the situation. That's certainly NOT how they did things years ago. Has Patek become an even worse company than i imagined???

OP, if you want PM me the dealer's name and I'll call Patek for you, because as a journalist I'm curious if they approve of this type of activity.
It is very common practice, it happens every where including the US and the UK.

Watches of Switzerland had asked people to buy other watches if they wanted to but Aquanauts or Nautilus.
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Old 23 May 2020, 09:22 AM   #18
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Agreed, spot on. Nicely done..!

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Well said I think you explained this nicely
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Old 23 May 2020, 09:59 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by qrc36 View Post
I've visited the Salon in Geneva 3 times in the last 2 years, to buy accessories for my watches (navy blue straps for 5524, 5172 strap for my 5212, white deployant...) and during my time there, whilst waiting for staff to bring me my things / handling payment / doing tax refund, each time I have overheard the staff telling customers something like this in English (and one time in Mandarin Chinese):

Staff: "You can't just buy a Nautilus, you need to buy other watches first, such as the beautiful pilot's watch or an annual calendar or a ladies' watch, and then you can buy the Nautilus ..."

Customer: "So can I buy a Nautilus and an Aquanaut after buying a pilot's watch?"

Staff: "No, you have to buy one or two more watches before you can buy the Aquanaut, so you need to have one or two watches in between ... the same rules apply in your country and also here in Geneva ... so you can only buy a sports watch after buying a few other watches...."

It actually shocked me how direct they were to the customers, who were seated in the salon and asking to see/buy Nautilus/Aquanauts.

So basically Patek knows this type of bundling - whether you're getting 2 watches at the same time as a bundle, or "bundling over a period of time" by getting a dress watch first and a sports watch later ...
Sort of like buying a new Ferrari - develop a relationship and we will let you order that 488....
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Old 23 May 2020, 12:59 PM   #20
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I'd still call Patek in Switzerland and let them know of the situation. That's certainly NOT how they did things years ago. Has Patek become an even worse company than i imagined???

OP, if you want PM me the dealer's name and I'll call Patek for you, because as a journalist I'm curious if they approve of this type of activity.
This was at the Salon in Geneva, Patek's own boutique and their flagship.

It happens all around the world, and is allowed by Patek (and essentially promoted by Patek, because they are allowing it to continue). Patek knows it's a way for them to sell their less popular items.

Happens at Hermes too, they basically force people to buy their clothes, plates/bowls, lamps, furniture etc. in order to get a coveted bag.
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Old 23 May 2020, 01:13 PM   #21
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This was at the Salon in Geneva, Patek's own boutique and their flagship.

It happens all around the world, and is allowed by Patek (and essentially promoted by Patek, because they are allowing it to continue). Patek knows it's a way for them to sell their less popular items.

Happens at Hermes too, they basically force people to buy their clothes, plates/bowls, lamps, furniture etc. in order to get a coveted bag.


This happens in London too.
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Old 23 May 2020, 11:39 PM   #22
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Happens at Hermes too, they basically force people to buy their clothes, plates/bowls, lamps, furniture etc. in order to get a coveted bag.
They’re not forcing people to do anything

Loyal customers get the pick of the litter; for everyone else, you can’t have it, or feel free to buy it used at actual market value. Quite simple really
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Old 23 May 2020, 11:51 PM   #23
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If you don't have a relationship with an AD with a previous purchase history, how does an AD know if someone is a flipper or a reseller? They would rather sell to loyal clients, especially the hard to get pieces. The past few years, so many flippers have come out of the woods to make a quick profit and that happens with other items besides watches, when an item sells over list price on the secondary market.

I have never bundled, but I think it is a reasonable business proposition. If you don't like the offer, negotiate or walk away. An AD will have no problem selling an Aquanaut and the AD has no obligation to a new person without a purchase history. There is no guarantee someone will return to buy more watches or refer other people to the business. It is the current state with Patek sports watches and Rolex SS sport watches.
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Old 24 May 2020, 12:26 AM   #24
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i'll call and ask Patek in Switzerland about this next week and report back.
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Old 24 May 2020, 02:24 AM   #25
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Curious to the feedback from Patek itself. On how they're going to further sugarcoat what's already being stated here by the others.
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Old 24 May 2020, 02:32 AM   #26
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Realistically, what would somebody expect Patek to say about this if confronted?

We know the answer. "Patek Philippe does not condone this behavior and our Authorized Dealers are encouraged to make our timepieces available to all customers that state an interest in purchasing".

Or, throw those words into a blender along with some other niceties and you can come up with something similar.

If Patek came down on AD's for doing this, I assure you Patek suddenly would have nobody selling their (mostly overpriced) watches. I don't like it either, but I also didn't invest in a business to sell fine jewelry and watches. So, I can't pretend to understand what needs to be done to keep such a business operating and I try and not judge too much.
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Old 24 May 2020, 04:42 AM   #27
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I'd still call Patek in Switzerland and let them know of the situation. That's certainly NOT how they did things years ago. Has Patek become an even worse company than i imagined???

OP, if you want PM me the dealer's name and I'll call Patek for you, because as a journalist I'm curious if they approve of this type of activity.
Please do kindly keep us posted.
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Old 24 May 2020, 06:55 AM   #28
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You guys are dreaming if you think Patek cares or would even respond to the question.
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Old 24 May 2020, 08:58 AM   #29
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You guys are dreaming if you think Patek cares or would even respond to the question.
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Old 24 May 2020, 12:26 PM   #30
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i'll call and ask Patek in Switzerland about this next week and report back.
Please do. I am curious to know what is the outcome. I guess the best you get is some lip service that they don't encourage this but it's up to the AD etc.

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You guys are dreaming if you think Patek cares or would even respond to the question.
This is probably the most likely outcome.

Controversially, I actually start to think bundling might be a more upfront way of doing business with the AD. Look, ADs knows popular and hard to get pieces fetch better value than MSRP on the grey market and they want a share of the cake. So either they sell to the customer by allocation after the customer established a sufficient purchase record or they sell if bundled with another watch. It's the same thing to me. In the former, it is far less transparent as a customer can buy many pieces but still end up not getting any allocation and only promise of being on some vague / fictitious wait list and then never gets the call. Bundling deals, if agreeable to both parties is a transparent way to ensure the customer gets the watch he wants. It's not ideal but it's what it is nowadays.
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