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Old 13 February 2019, 06:44 PM   #1
carlings
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Best luxury dress watch under 15k (new/used)?

I couldn't find a discussion thread for this particular price range here, so hopefully this is welcome.

15,000 bucks is a LOT of money -- but also seems like something of a "value" price point in the high end, to the degree you can talk about any such thing.

At least you have plenty of choices of not-so-complicated, but nevertheless beautifully finished watches from the top watchmakers.

What should be the top contenders? Right now I'm thinking:

Lange 1815 38.5mm used
Lange 1815 up/down with the older 36mm case
Lange Saxonia Thin new or used Saxonia with small seconds
Patek Calatrava 5119 or 5196 used
JLC Master Ultra Thin Moon in gold
Breguet Classique with enamel or guilloché dial?
Vacheron Constantin Patrimony

Then you have the off-beat picks, like picking up a vintage perpetual from AP. Seems like you're asking for trouble come servicing time though.

For the best finishing, it seems simple enough. You go with the Lange, done. But finishing isn't everything. In the flesh I was particularly impressed with the beauty of Breguet's dials, and that goes for both the enamel and guilloché offerings.

The JLC Moon is also very nice, particularly in rose gold. But it may be slightly overpriced considering your top end options.

What else should be considered? And what dress watch would you personally buy for 15k?
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Old 13 February 2019, 10:19 PM   #2
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I think that price point is very interesting since you are willing to go used.
There are so many models to choose from, I would have a tough time making a complete list.
Just a few more
Moser: Pretty much every simple 3 hand model
IWC: loads of dress models in Gold, maybe an annual calendar
JLC: So many models that are trim and Gold aside from the master ultra thin moon
Breguet: a few other lines aside from the Classique
Vacheron: Traditionalle, 1942 and many others
AP: Jules Audemars, Edward Piguet
Cartier: Too many to list
GO: lots of models
Parmigiani
Lange and Hyne
Zenith
Rolex Cellini
Blancpain



Pretty much every major brand has a few dress models that have been produced recently that can be had for around that price that I’d be glad to own.

At the moment I don’t own any dress watches at that price point, just higher priced and substantially less.

Every watch you listed is a nice watch, and as you said not everything is about finishing, I think it’s just personal taste.
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Old 13 February 2019, 11:10 PM   #3
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Patek 5119j and JLC Reverso Duo


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Old 14 February 2019, 01:19 AM   #4
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I’d do the vc 38 manual from the hodinkee best dresswstches under 20k. That was a beautiful watch. Used are great values
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Old 14 February 2019, 01:29 AM   #5
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Breguet classique, with a guilloche and retrograde seconds. As you’ve stated, the dial and finishing are world class.

I also quite like the Blancpain Villarete Quantième. Very underrated piece with fantastic finishing, plus a moon phase and day/date/month complication.
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Old 14 February 2019, 03:06 AM   #6
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My answer to the question has been a small and completely under the radar 3998P Calatrava which I continue to like a lot.
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Old 14 February 2019, 04:59 AM   #7
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Love the Arnold & Son HM Perpetual Moons, lesser known but definitely worth a look.
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Old 14 February 2019, 05:04 AM   #8
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New A.Lange & Sohne Saxonia Thin RG.
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Old 14 February 2019, 05:47 AM   #9
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Lange 1815 38.5mm. Superb 3 hand watch. Not much can touch it for the price.
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Old 14 February 2019, 09:57 AM   #10
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Lange is nice but doesn't move me. I smile every single time I look down at my Breguet classiques. For example, the retrograde seconds is lovely. The moonphase with power reserve and grand feu is completely charming to wear.
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Old 14 February 2019, 01:27 PM   #11
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I think the VC May present the best value. They go for steep discounts, and who knows- maybe the brand won’t be so soft one day.

They have a historically fantastic reputation. If you bet on them regaining their magic in the next 10-15 years, it could pay off.


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Old 14 February 2019, 02:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlings View Post

What else should be considered? And what dress watch would you personally buy for 15k?
JLC Reverso in gold, words can’t describe how beautiful !

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Old 14 February 2019, 06:08 PM   #13
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Lange is nice but doesn't move me. I smile every single time I look down at my Breguet classiques. For example, the retrograde seconds is lovely. The moonphase with power reserve and grand feu is completely charming to wear.
You may have hit the nail on the head there. Lange is so freaking impressive, but their designs are almost too perfect sometimes, you know? It's like they're objectively beautiful, but can lack some feel.

At least that's what I felt when trying the Saxonia Thin. I now think that watch isn't for me -- I think it has to be a 1815 if going Lange, which I feel injects some personality into it. It's also slightly less formal.

That "beautiful, but lacks feel/personality" is something that prevents me from digging the VC Patrimony too. Though I must add, I have not actually tried it on yet.

Here's the thing: I don't actually wear suits. My work doesn't requires it! I actually hate suits. I regularly wear jeans. Yet I'm lusting after a high end dress watch in gold. Am I crazy?

To make it even worse, I'm digging the super-formal Patek 5119 design. It just feels romantic.

Speaking of romantic, too bad the FP Journe Chronometre Bleu has shot up in the used market. That watch is stunning and seems versatile too.

My top contenters right now are probably the Patek 5119 or the 1815 in 36mm or 38,5mm, with the latter being the very top contenter.

I should probably start digging into Moser and other smaller brands.
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Old 14 February 2019, 10:26 PM   #14
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Yellow gold Lange 1. A little more interesting than the 1815 in my opinion, and an iconic watch. They are out there at this price, I've stupidly passed on enough of them to know!
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Old 14 February 2019, 10:46 PM   #15
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I should probably start digging into Moser and other smaller brands.
I'd highly recommend trying Moser, especially the endeavour center seconds collection.
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Old 15 February 2019, 12:54 AM   #16
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If you can stretch that budget a little, I would go with Lange 1815 Up/down preown, which has a more interesting dial than the 1815 time only. The latter uses a non-Lange manufactured balance spring and lacks the free sprung balance.
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Old 17 February 2019, 01:55 AM   #17
carlings
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The up/down is nice but so far I haven’t seen them close to 15k.

Anybody have experience with vintage perpetuals/calendars? The AP Quantieme looks interessting, can’t believe I can get a Holy Trinity perpetual calendar in gold under 10k. They’re not even that vintage being from the 90s.
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Old 17 February 2019, 02:05 AM   #18
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There was a time when you could throw a chrono blue in the mix but those days are over lol

I personally like the VC patrimony small seconds or Lange 1815. I also like the patek 5196G even though it is nowhere near as good a value.
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Old 17 February 2019, 09:25 AM   #19
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The dress watch I'd buy with $15k would the Breguet Classique 7147 grand fue. Not on your list but something to consider would be a Piaget Altiplano.
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Old 18 February 2019, 03:41 AM   #20
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Well, the term "dress watch" can be open to interpretation, but I find this VC Overseas with the blue dial to be absolutely stunning, and it looks great with a suit or jeans. And yes, it fits under a cuff.

Very, very underrated watch, and can be bought on the secondary market in the range of $15K (maybe a little more.) Retail is close to $21K. The quality, feel, attention to detail, three included straps, and that blue lacquer dial with a simple design that screams 1960s ... it's just beautiful. The outer blue ring on the dial goes turquoise when light hits it the right way. Hard to capture its full beauty in photos. Nothing else like it on the market, not with this kind of design and luxury feel.
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Old 18 February 2019, 01:58 PM   #21
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Like the VC Overseas, but would call it a sports watch, not a dress watch. Others may disagree.
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Old 18 February 2019, 07:01 PM   #22
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The VC Overseas unfortunately doesn't do much for me. Years ago I "wanted" to like it but in the end I realized I dislike the bezel and bracelet design and I also don't like the dial much, including the shape of the markers at 6, 9 and 12, the framed date, and the twin outer ring. Compared to the original 222 the Overseas is screaming "I am different" at cost of sacrificing simplicity and beauty IMO. I would love to own a 222 and I like quite a few VC dress watches, but I think VC messed up when transferring its legendary 1970s sports watch into the 21st century, just like IWC, and unlike AP and Patek.
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Old 19 February 2019, 02:11 AM   #23
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The VC Overseas unfortunately doesn't do much for me. Years ago I "wanted" to like it but in the end I realized I dislike the bezel and bracelet design and I also don't like the dial much, including the shape of the markers at 6, 9 and 12, the framed date, and the twin outer ring. Compared to the original 222 the Overseas is screaming "I am different" at cost of sacrificing simplicity and beauty IMO. I would love to own a 222 and I like quite a few VC dress watches, but I think VC messed up when transferring its legendary 1970s sports watch into the 21st century, just like IWC, and unlike AP and Patek.
Ah, like everything, it's in the eye of the beholder. I think the VC is beautiful, and there's not a watch at any price point that can beat that blue dial. The Overseas Date is simple but very interesting in design, elegant but also somewhat rugged, classic and proportionally perfect. All the things you mentioned are the reasons I love it.

On the other hand, the AP and Patek equivalents, I guess something from the Royal Oak line and the Nautilus, do nothing for me at all. I find the designs dated and boring, like something my grandfather would wear. (I never liked those odd little screws around the AP bezel.) Nothing wrong with those watches for some guys, of course, just not for me.
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Old 19 February 2019, 02:51 AM   #24
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Ah, like everything, it's in the eye of the beholder. I think the VC is beautiful, and there's not a watch at any price point that can beat that blue dial. The Overseas Date is simple but very interesting in design, elegant but also somewhat rugged, classic and proportionally perfect. All the things you mentioned are the reasons I love it.

On the other hand, the AP and Patek equivalents, I guess something from the Royal Oak line and the Nautilus, do nothing for me at all. I find the designs dated and boring, like something my grandfather would wear. (I never liked those odd little screws around the AP bezel.) Nothing wrong with those watches for some guys, of course, just not for me.
I have never been a big fan of the Royal Oak either but I do like the more basic Nautilus and was hunting for a 3700 before ending the hunt with a 5711 from the AD. I can understand people like you who see the Royal Oak and Nautilus designs as dated. Becoming unfashionable (again!) is certainly a risk but then again will the Porsche 911 ever go out of style (as long as there are gas engines)? In the end I am not bothered as I just like the watch.
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Old 19 February 2019, 06:40 AM   #25
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I like all the watches on your list and I don't think you'd go wrong with any of them. Obviously, watches are personal, but, objectively speaking, the Langes are finished the best. The 1815 is a pretty versatile watch and can be dressed up or down, more so than the Saxonia. It would be my first choice but if you were looking for something a bit more elegant looking, you might add the 38mm manual wind VC Traditionnelle to your list. It's less sterile with more character than the Patrimony line but is still a classic design with beautiful dauphine hands and batons and the finishing is only surpassed by Lange in this price range. It also dresses up or down fairly easily.

If you're looking for something more dressy and more elegant, albeit probably less versatile, the hobnail bezel and Roman numerals of the 5119 are gorgeous and the unique case, hands, and guilloche or enamel dial of the Breguet are lovely features. Regardless, you are in a fortunate position and should enjoy the journey.
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Old 19 February 2019, 03:41 PM   #26
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I’d get a 5120, that micro rotor is a sight. Not a fan of the 5119.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlings View Post
I couldn't find a discussion thread for this particular price range here, so hopefully this is welcome.

15,000 bucks is a LOT of money -- but also seems like something of a "value" price point in the high end, to the degree you can talk about any such thing.

At least you have plenty of choices of not-so-complicated, but nevertheless beautifully finished watches from the top watchmakers.

What should be the top contenders? Right now I'm thinking:

Lange 1815 38.5mm used
Lange 1815 up/down with the older 36mm case
Lange Saxonia Thin new or used Saxonia with small seconds
Patek Calatrava 5119 or 5196 used
JLC Master Ultra Thin Moon in gold
Breguet Classique with enamel or guilloché dial?
Vacheron Constantin Patrimony

Then you have the off-beat picks, like picking up a vintage perpetual from AP. Seems like you're asking for trouble come servicing time though.

For the best finishing, it seems simple enough. You go with the Lange, done. But finishing isn't everything. In the flesh I was particularly impressed with the beauty of Breguet's dials, and that goes for both the enamel and guilloché offerings.

The JLC Moon is also very nice, particularly in rose gold. But it may be slightly overpriced considering your top end options.

What else should be considered? And what dress watch would you personally buy for 15k?
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Old 19 February 2019, 05:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlings View Post
I couldn't find a discussion thread for this particular price range here, so hopefully this is welcome.

15,000 bucks is a LOT of money -- but also seems like something of a "value" price point in the high end, to the degree you can talk about any such thing.

At least you have plenty of choices of not-so-complicated, but nevertheless beautifully finished watches from the top watchmakers.

What should be the top contenders? Right now I'm thinking:

Lange 1815 38.5mm used
Lange 1815 up/down with the older 36mm case
Lange Saxonia Thin new or used Saxonia with small seconds
Patek Calatrava 5119 or 5196 used
JLC Master Ultra Thin Moon in gold
Breguet Classique with enamel or guilloché dial?
Vacheron Constantin Patrimony

Then you have the off-beat picks, like picking up a vintage perpetual from AP. Seems like you're asking for trouble come servicing time though.

For the best finishing, it seems simple enough. You go with the Lange, done. But finishing isn't everything. In the flesh I was particularly impressed with the beauty of Breguet's dials, and that goes for both the enamel and guilloché offerings.

The JLC Moon is also very nice, particularly in rose gold. But it may be slightly overpriced considering your top end options.

What else should be considered? And what dress watch would you personally buy for 15k?
I would not get a Patek at this price range. Patrimony would be my pick.
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Old 20 February 2019, 05:42 AM   #28
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You don't want a Patek in this price range unless you're a fan of significant signs of wear + unknown service history. A decent pre-loved Patek territory starts at around 17K for not so popular models.

In the given range, Lange is your best bet. Dramatically underappreciated by the market and yet so sophisticated. JLC is a good option too when you go pre-loved.
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Old 20 February 2019, 09:59 AM   #29
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Old 20 February 2019, 11:22 AM   #30
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I think that the classic Patek 5120 is no longer made.

Quote:
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I’d get a 5120, that micro rotor is a sight. Not a fan of the 5119.
I picked the 5119 because I prefer a second hand. Few people look at the front of my watch. I doubt anyone but myself would want to see the movement.
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