Leaving TRF; a different perspective

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by jmassey215

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to read this thread and weigh in with their thoughts.

Let me just say that this was my deal and I take full responsibility for it. I'm sorry that my friend, Alfred, was dragged into this whole debacle. Alfred is very respectable member/seller and should be trusted with the utmost confidence. I hope no one passes undue judgement on him because of this.

Whatever your opinion is of me and how this situation was handled, I can completely understand and accept.

I regret this issue couldn't have been dealt amicably by myself and the other member.

His pattern of unrealistic and irrational behavior/demands were immediate cause for concern and this factored into the decision that was made.

I'll end by saying this was a learning experience for me and I'll be much more careful in future dealings (so this scenario is never repeated again).

So do you accept that the watch you traded to him had an imperfect dial, and will you be offering a return?

[powerfunk]

OP, the product had a defect and it's your prerogative to get a reversal of the trade. That's the only good clean option besides keeping it; I think all this talk of partial refunds and a new watch is what (rightfully) put everyone on edge.

Sent from my 0PM92 using Tapatalk

[FNFZ4]

Eddie are you reading your own responses? This is getting hilarious

Both of them never asked for more photos

Why would I ask you for more photos? as I have said, I did not sell you the watch so why would I be involved?

I would say demand is a harsh word Alfred , i asked if there was any possibility of getting a watch since there was the defect. Knowing you are a so call reputable seller or member here i thought i asked and the fact that you were the original seller of the watch somehow makes me think that you may possibility do something.

oh demand is a harsh word is it? so how should i put it when you told me "since you are the original seller of the watch, I think you should replace this with a brand new watch" But if you came to me for help, I would have helped you, but you asked me to help you out by giving you a brand new watch which is technically insane.

Did you tell other what you told me why you wanted a brand new watch? Eddie said he wanted a brand new watch instead of getting the dial replaced at RSC if there was a defect on it because he said he does not trust Rolex to open the watch and "it would not be the same anymore" This was already a red flag for me that he has some kind of perhaps loose screws somewhere.

If i have questions and i walked into a rolex AD, i wish their employee wouldn't be so offended if i asked them about how the warranty works or if any watch is replaceable. I'm sure the worse answer would just be a "NO" from them.

I am also sure if you asked them several times and they answered the question several times like what you did to me i am pretty sure they will just ignore you. Eddie you didnt asked me once. you asked me like 3-4 times as if the answer was going to change.

Its ok Alfred, i know you didn't want to be in this but Jim is your buddy and you need to back him up so he can buy more watches from you later.

I never backed up anyone nor did I choose side in this. I told Jim the same thing I told you that I am not involved in this in anyway.

And now I think you do have paranoia of some kind. sure, I will side with someone just so that they buy more watches from me???

Not sure if even after that Alfred will still not admit he missed something from the very beginning

Again I am not involved with this. I never sold you anything. I never denied or admitted anything to you because I didnt do any deals with you. I dont even know who you are.

Alfred, by not admitting that the original watch sold had a defect even with the exact photo shown in your original post [and also trying to lie saying it is a stock photo ?? It reads the exact same serial number on my watch ] and standing on the side of Jim and . not being a independent 3rd party judging this trade is the exactly why you are involved

It is not a lie. It is the truth that I do use stock photos and here is why. When I get a batch of 5 white Brand New Explorers will I take a picture of all 5? I will most of the time take a picture of one from the batch and use that. However, when I am contacted by any member I disclose that fact and ask them if they watch pictures of the exact watch before I ship it to them. Most of them say no because it is a brand new watch. There is nothing wrong with this process for sellers who get multiple watches at a time. Even in new watches. I offer to take pictures. I recently sold an explorer II Black Dial and the pictures were of an unpolished watch, the buyer requested a light polish and after the polish was done i took pictures so the buyer can see.

I am not standing in the side of Jim. Again, this is evidence to your repetitive behavior like when you asked me about the warranty issue. you claim you asked me once so either you have selective amnesia, or have split personality, you asked me the same question with slightly same wording 3-4 times.

not being a independent 3rd party judging this trade is the exactly why you are involved. Your decision and word determined if i will get my watch back, but you decided to use your reputable and just wing it standing on Jim's side and don't want to look at the hard evidence

It is not my decision to give your watch back to you. I did not do the deal with you. That is the decision of the person whom you have traded with. Why would I be an independent 3rd party to this trade again? Just because I dont want to get involve so I get dragged in? Are you following your logic here?

Clearly there is something wrong here if these are your logical points. By simple not wanting to be involve in a trade that does not involve me and by not giving him a brand new watch to replace the explorer that he got from one of my clients, thats why he is involving me in this situation.

Eddie I dont know how else to put it buddy but asking for $400, Asking for a brand new watch and asking me to get involved in something that I am not and dragging me in the situation just because I wont side with you or for anyone in this instance sounds like EXTORTION to me.

Best of luck with your watch collecting.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by FNFZ4

It is not a lie. It is the truth that I do use stock photos and here is why. When I get a batch of 5 white Brand New Explorers will I take a picture of all 5? I will most of the time take a picture of one from the batch and use that. However, when I am contacted by any member I disclose that fact and ask them if they watch pictures of the exact watch before I ship it to them. Most of them say no because it is a brand new watch. There is nothing wrong with this process for sellers who get multiple watches at a time. Even in new watches. I offer to take pictures. I recently sold an explorer II Black Dial and the pictures were of an unpolished watch, the buyer requested a light polish and after the polish was done i took pictures so the buyer can see.

Probably a good time to point out that this is against forum rules, which state, partly I suspect to avoid situations similar to this one, that "Pics of the actual item being listed must be posted along with the ad."

[Submariner2015]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

OP, the product had a defect and it's your prerogative to get a reversal of the trade. That's the only good clean option besides keeping it; I think all this talk of partial refunds and a new watch is what (rightfully) put everyone on edge.

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I believe the partial refund talk and/or new watch inquiry only came when it became obvious to OP that "Jim" was not going to reverse the trade...if I'm reading the exchanges correctly

[FNFZ4]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Probably a good time to point out that this is against forum rules, which state, partly I suspect to avoid situations similar to this one, that "Pics of the actual item being listed must be posted along with the ad."

Adam, I do have pics of all the watches in case the buyer does require the actual pictures. I just use one from the batch as I make my posting template on note pad. If this was against the rules I apologies and moving forward will make several templates for the same model watches.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by FNFZ4

Adam, I do have pics of all the watches in case the buyer does require the actual pictures. I just use one from the batch as I make my posting template on note pad. If this was against the rules I apologies and moving forward will make several templates for the same model watches.

Just put up photographs of the actual watch that you are selling in the ad. This is only fair to the buyer, who may not realise that what they see is not exactly what they will get. All the other big-volume sellers do it, or at least they should be.

Thanks

[susuki1220]

Alfred, and you are still in denial that you miss the defect from the very beginning of the watch you sold to Jim with hard evidence. [ just pull up your old file of my watch in high resolution that you claim to keep with all your watch selling and you will clearly see it the faded/missing leg of "A"]

And if you saw the defect in your original photo and still told Jim that there is no defect then you would be lying. But regardless, your simple "no defect" answer to Jim prompted the nail in the coffin for any chance of Jim to untrade my watch back.

I'm not even responding the thread to get my watch back or to argue more, but to just show people on the forum that not everyone is perfect here but I expect any reputable/trusted seller here on TRF has enough courage to admit something that was defected from the very beginning and not try to get rid of all the responsibilities.

I love the explorer 2 Polar, wish i had gotten it sooner. I will love this one especially more because now it has a bit of history behind it that i can tell my grand kids one day.

Eddie

[Submariner2015]

Originally Posted by FNFZ4

Adam, I do have pics of all the watches in case the buyer does require the actual pictures. I just use one from the batch as I make my posting template on note pad. If this was against the rules I apologies and moving forward will make several templates for the same model watches.

Just my own observation but...I'm not so sure a seller can be so "trusted" anymore if they neglect to review the basic rules for posting in the "for sale section"...especially when involving selling luxury timepieces for thousands of dollars

[FNFZ4]

Original Picture

[FNFZ4]

Originally Posted by Submariner2015

Just my own observation but...I'm not so sure a seller can be so "trusted" anymore if they neglect to review the basic rules for posting in the "for sale section"...especially when involving selling luxury timepieces for thousands of dollars

You are entitled to your own opinion absolutely and your definition of a trusted seller may vary. However, in general By trusted meaning that a regular seller have sold many watches on this forum for years. Many of us have sold maybe even 1000 watches here. That you are safe buying from these sellers as they are proven not to be scammers (people who you wire money to and just disappear) Also, if you buy a watch from any trusted seller and are not happy with it, you can return it at the same condition. Just read the return policy.

[powerfunk]

Originally Posted by Submariner2015

Just my own observation but...I'm not so sure a seller can be so "trusted" anymore if they neglect to review the basic rules for posting in the "for sale section"...especially when involving selling luxury timepieces for thousands of dollars

It's certainly your right to buy where you want but to question his trustworthiness over this is silly IMHO. Consider not only the many favors he's done for members here, but also that he's completely open about it and that many sellers sell on multiple forums with slightly different rules. I wouldn't judge so harshly.

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[mailman]

Originally Posted by susuki1220

I've been on the forum for almost 4 years and been trying to learn about watches through the different threads here by TRF members. I'm glad there is a community like this as it benefits all of us in some way or another and truly some very useful information. Only until recently did i start trying to buy and sell/trade some watches.

I'm one of those that doesn't post much but only reads as i feel that i don't have enough knowledge to give back to the community. I even went to one of the local GTG at Beverly Hill held by one of the members here, Markk and was glad that I went as all these people that love watches were there having a good time sharing information because we have the same hobby.

My 1st rolex was a 5500 air king from ebay [ yes i know, it was actually authentic which later was sold to a member on the forum ]

My 2nd watch was the Omega GSOM which i bought from a trusted seller todreamawatch. Funny thing is Sergey sent 2 watches as he sent me the wrong one first and I return one to him with honesty.

My 3rd watch is a Daytona from a local AD, which i loved so much.

My 4th watch is a BLNR with an influence photo by Loevhagen on many of the BLNR + Jubilee bracelet post which means i have to get that combo.

Fast forward to last week is where everything went down hill. I posted a FSOT of my omega GSOM on the forum here to fund a Explorer 2 polar because I caught the rolex fever thanks to TRF . http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=443409


I ended up trading the watch with a member here jmassey215 [Jim] for an exp 2. He provided me many references and claims that he got burn before and want to find out the best way to trade the watch. He suggests to go through a trusted seller here FNFZ4 [Alfred] to do exchange and swap watches. [ Jim also bought the explorer 2 from Alfred originally] I opt out trying to avoid extra shipping fee and handling fee and me being a guy that believes in humanity that i sent him my GSOM first before he shipped his Explorer 2 to me [yes i'm crazy]. In the text message I even said if there is anything that you don't like please sent it back and i will exchange it, and i'm sure he agreed and honor the same, until later he broke his promise

Jim liked the GSOM i sent him because the watch was as described just like brand new without sticker as i wore it for one day and left it in the watch box since. He received the GSOM on 11/21 a Saturday overnight delivery to him. He was able to enjoy the watch over the weekend to accept everything before he sent the explorer 2 to me Monday which i received yesterday 11/24, Tuesday.

When i took out his EXP 2 watch for examination, i found 1 deep scratch on the side of the watch which you can feel with your nail. and a desk dive mark on the clasp. And of course being very picky about my watch i did ask in advance if there was any scratches visible and he said nope and it is also like new and wore twice. [ I actually didn't care about the scratch of the desk dive marks at all because i know i probably will scratch it up myself]



What i found next i couldn't accept as there was a defect on the polar dial. The word "DATE", the letter "A" was missing the bottom left leg. i have ocd.


First thing i did was actually to call RSC in Beverly Hills to see what is wait time and what are my options about the defect. RSC suggested to return to the AD i bought it from since it was fairly new[ 2month ] or the fix was going to be 4 weeks. RSC suggests that because it is a new watch they don't recommend opening it as usually they open the watch for full service but can do it if i really want it to for warranty issues.

Next I called Alfred knowing he was the original trusted seller of this explorer 2. I introduced myself and told him about the defect and I kindly ask if i can exchange for a new one with him, he declined and I totally understand and asks me to take it to RSC. I told him RSC is my last resort and i attempted to ask if the warranty covers the US as the original AD stamp was from Greece. His tone of voice was rude and condescending like i am stupid and asked me probably 3-4 times if i read the warranty card. I replied no as that is why i am asking you the question. He replied 'INTERNATIONAL'. I don't know why he chose this way respond but maybe because i didn't buy anything from him before and now that i called him for something he sold 2 month ago to Jim. That is totally fine but as a noob here if i have something that i don't understand i would like to ask and not get flamed. So my image of a reputable seller on TRF shattered instantly.

I then attempt to call Jim to tell him the situation and that i talked to RSC and alfred. I sent him a few photos of the defect close up so he can see. He replied saying that Alfred said i fake the call to RSC and that i never called and i am trying to scam him and use photoshop and that he wants to wait for Alfred to confirm that the watch is indeed defected from his original post. I told him there is no way for me to touch the dial as i just opened it like 30min ago and the dial is inside the crystal casing and why would i want photo shop and make this stuff up? I asked for to swap our watches back, he declined and said he wants to talk to Alfred first. [ i have the evidence that i indeed called RSC for 3 minutes to ask the specialist the question ]

I text Jim probably 2 hours later asking for a $400 compensation for the defect and i will keep the watch and i will go through the hassle of RSC and warranty and not having the watch for 4 week. If not then we can just swap our watch back as i am willing to lose on the shipping cost and just want the watch back so i can resell it and you can have your exp2 back and you deal with the defect with Alfred or RSC. He declined and this time he said him and Alfred know in fact that i'm trying to distort him money and scamming and there is no defect what so ever originally sold by Alfred and that Alfred couldn't have missed it when he sold it to me.

I sent both of them the original links to Alfred post 2 month ago where he sold Jim the watch. [ Alfred claims he uses stock photos for this thread, i told him look at the serial number and he never replied ]
http://www.uspro693.startdedicated.c...ghlight=216570

Serial number 773***86 on one of the photo and you can see the "A" bottom left leg missing ever so slightly. So open your eyes and tell me this is not the exact same watch that i have. [ funny he tried to say he uses stock photos?? be aware of his future post as it might be stock photos ]


After that, Jim still refused to ship back my watch. Jim threatens that i'm scamming him and no one will believe me my story because him and Alfred is very honest and has all the good reputation in the past on multiple forums. I don't understand why Jim is so afraid to get his watch back?? maybe he knew there was a defect from the beginning?

Lesson learned and i take my loss , i took the risk of the private trade from the beginning and i knew these things might happen. But i still want to give the story so new TRF members can see the power of leverage when you are dealing with a reputable member. Who is to judge reputable people don't do messed up things?

Judge for yourself, knowing all the reputable seller here and claiming having many feedback maybe because they treat you nicely due to business reason $$/item transaction and a smooth transaction. But when things go south i'm not sure if they will back you up or burn you. Talking to people in a condescending way because i'm not in the watch game breaks my little heart and not acceptable to an adult and the fact that the person trading the watch don't even want his own watch back is unbelievable.


TRF is a great place and has lots of knowledge. Please be careful of who you choose to deal with on the forums; reputable or not doesn't mean they treat you honestly and nicely like a human being.

Off to thanksgivings and seriously i'm not sure why Alfred is even in this mess as it is a private trade between me and Jim.

I'm sure i'll be back to TRF when i need my Gold Sub sometime next year

Eddie

Eddie, like it or not this is between you and Jim. Why you dragged Alfred into it is beyond me. It has nothing to do with him.

Anymore from you about it unless how a resolution came about and you will leave TRF for good...not by your choice but by ours.