FP Journe Email Update

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Armin Strom, MB&F, Ballouard, Halter, Moser (double hairspring)... there is an abundance of creativity in many directions. Seek and ye shall find. Not a slight at FPJ's accomplishments, he has his niche, others have theirs, and each has their own style and approach to timekeeping.

Imho there's never been a better (modern) time to enjoy both the art and creativity of horology... and there's room for growth too

You actually just pointed out exactly what I was referring to. All the brands you listed maybe except Armin Strom are not new independents which came into vogue in the last 2-3 years. And none of them focused on their finishing.

[enjoythemusic]

Ahhh, you mean the thicc stuff.... fair enough and agree they're no RR in that regard.

Wonder if commissioning finishing will be the 'next level' of horology. Hiring specialists to work with, for example, FPJ to create 'upscale' hand-finishing work. A collab of sorts, so the best of both worlds per se. FPJ could offer 'special editions' like that, and RR has collab'ed so there is precedence.

[tigerpac]

Here's another article from a different source to further support my previous statement.

https://www.fratellowatches.com/f-p-...que-lune/#gref

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks for providing the information that I asked for. There is misinformation in this forum and I don't believe everything I read here.

The 2015 article you quoted is for a discontinued model. That model is now called Automatique and nowhere in the current and retrospective models in the Journe website I see the Automatique/Octa Lune rotor being engine-turned. Comparatively, in the Resonance web page, we can see the description "steel components hand-finished". I believe all watchmakers will proudly tell the world they hand finish a component, like what they do for the Resonance steel components and other higher end models. I also tried to search for other sources for hand guilloche of the rotor but could not find any. The 2015 article you quoted is the only place I saw this and while I also frequent Monochrome, I notice some inaccuracies from time to time. I believe this is an instance of journalistic error. Or maybe the lingo "engine-turned finish" refers to the look of an engine-turned finish (stamp) only, and not "engine-turned" (hand).

Comparatively in the Patek website, they proudly tell people the dial on the 5230P is "hand-guilloched" vs the silence on the 5935A stamping.

Don't get me wrong I love FP and the brand. I'm a big Journe fanboy. I own 2 Journes and had dine a few times with FP and Masa. I would love my Journes to be hand-finished but I know they are not. That's not an issue to me because at that price, I don't expect them to be.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by tigerpac

Here's another article from a different source to further support my previous statement.

https://www.fratellowatches.com/f-p-...que-lune/#gref

Here is a very recent SJX article of their visit to the Journe Manufacture:
https://watchesbysjx.com/2023/10/ins...ure-visit.html

There was no mention of how the guilloche is done on the rotor. In the article, there was a sentence on the dial guilloche which I re-produce here "Interestingly, the only technique that CDG does not do in-house is guillochage. Otherwise, all dial operations from initial CNC through quality control happen on-site."

In the movement section, there was reference of CNC being used extensively - "The process starts in the basement, which houses numerous CNC machines for turning rods of gold, aluminium, and steel into movement plates, bridges, wheels, pinions, and other components".

"This struck me as an impressive level of automation for a facility producing just 1,000 movements per year – less than three per day on average. This routine, repetitive task could be done manually, but given the simple pattern and low ceiling for differentiation, doing so would be of minimal added value. Furthermore, the periodic laser analysis of the tool ensures a uniformity that would otherwise be impossible.

Naturally, the design of more complex movements can require a human touch. For watches like the Astronomic Souveraine and FFC, the perlage is done by hand."

Even perlage for almost all FP Journes is done by CNC as stated in the article, except for Astronomic Souveraine and FFC. My view is if there are non-CNC rose engine lathe in the Manufacture and if there are artisanal guillocheur manning the lathe, I'm certain SJX would have covered that in the article with photos.

As I posted previously, I will ask FP when I meet him again.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Here is a very recent SJX article of their visit to the Journe Manufacture:
https://watchesbysjx.com/2023/10/ins...ure-visit.html

There was no mention of how the guilloche is done on the rotor. In the article, there was a sentence on the dial guilloche which I re-produce here "Interestingly, the only technique that CDG does not do in-house is guillochage. Otherwise, all dial operations from initial CNC through quality control happen on-site."

In the movement section, there was reference of CNC being used extensively - "The process starts in the basement, which houses numerous CNC machines for turning rods of gold, aluminium, and steel into movement plates, bridges, wheels, pinions, and other components".

"This struck me as an impressive level of automation for a facility producing just 1,000 movements per year – less than three per day on average. This routine, repetitive task could be done manually, but given the simple pattern and low ceiling for differentiation, doing so would be of minimal added value. Furthermore, the periodic laser analysis of the tool ensures a uniformity that would otherwise be impossible.

Naturally, the design of more complex movements can require a human touch. For watches like the Astronomic Souveraine and FFC, the perlage is done by hand."

Even perlage for almost all FP Journes is done by CNC as stated in the article, except for Astronomic Souveraine and FFC. My view is if there are non-CNC rose engine lathe in the Manufacture and if there are artisanal guillocheur manning the lathe, I'm certain SJX will report that in the article with photos.

As I posted previously, I will ask FP when I meet him again.

Just want to highlight that TV does have a hand cut dial and not stamped. And the movement gets more hand work. It was confirmed with the boutique.

[dchang81]

I don't really rely on the watch blogs for accurate info. Parmigiani makes no pretense over the stamped dials for the PF line but several articles mentioned hand guilloche.

[tigerpac]

I'll stop reproving my statement over and over. However, I believe the engine guilloche rotors are actually done by a 3rd party supplier so that would jive with the sjx article.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by RRJ

I disagree - Greubel Forsey watches can be had in the 200k price range and they do everything FPJ does, but better. Better finishing, more complicated, more accessible. If you buy grey, value retention is a-okay. Not to mention FPJ prices are crashing hard, there is a CO selling on Chrono24 for CHF 130k. Romain Gauthier would be another great example for better „value“, although they might not be as complicated as some FPJs.


I also feel like pieces like the RQ and CO are kind of impossible to get, where as you can get any GF (- the handmade 1 for obvious reason) or RG any time.

FPJ was decent value at msrp a couple of years ago, nowadays, not so much.

That being said, I‘ve been waiting for a CO for 4y now and would still very much like to own one lol.

I think the plain CO from the boutique is about USD 110k? So 130k CHF is still a good 20+% premium and if we are looking at the same watch on C24. It is one without box and paper.

GF grey price is easily 40% off new. I almost added a Balancier Contemporain a few days ago but the out the door hit was just too high to swallow psychologically.

Somehow aftermarket price for CO has always been softer than RQ or even CS in terms of percentage. CO he probably a sleeper hit in the catalogue IMHO. Since the demand is low so production is also lower. As I was told that the wait is long for a CO mainly due to production limitation. A lot more people request for the RQ for obvious reason.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I think the plain CO from the boutique is about USD 110k? So 130k CHF is still a good 20+% premium and if we are looking at the same watch on C24. It is one without box and paper.

GF grey price is easily 40% off new. I almost added a Balancier Contemporain a few days ago but the out the door hit was just too high to swallow psychologically.

Somehow aftermarket price for CO has always been softer than RQ or even CS in terms of percentage. CO he probably a sleeper hit in the catalogue IMHO. Since the demand is low so production is also lower. As I was told that the wait is long for a CO mainly due to production limitation. A lot more people request for the RQ for obvious reason.

I think it was 118,400 in pt when I asked summer 2022. Probably higher now?

[RyanO]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I think it was 118,400 in pt when I asked summer 2022. Probably higher now?

I think it was mid 120s USD in PT EO 2023, though believe they are having an increases in 24.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KWSub]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I think it was 118,400 in pt when I asked summer 2022. Probably higher now?

It was USD $129.5k in PT in 2023.
USD $126.2k in RG.
Not sure how much price change there will be for 2024.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by RRJ

I disagree - Greubel Forsey watches can be had in the 200k price range and they do everything FPJ does, but better. Better finishing, more complicated, more accessible. If you buy grey, value retention is a-okay. Not to mention FPJ prices are crashing hard, there is a CO selling on Chrono24 for CHF 130k. Romain Gauthier would be another great example for better „value“, although they might not be as complicated as some FPJs.


I also feel like pieces like the RQ and CO are kind of impossible to get, where as you can get any GF (- the handmade 1 for obvious reason) or RG any time.

FPJ was decent value at msrp a couple of years ago, nowadays, not so much.

That being said, I‘ve been waiting for a CO for 4y now and would still very much like to own one lol.

Yes, although it feels like GFs latest releases kind of skimp out on finishing and are still very aggressively priced. The newer Balanciers are beautiful to me and wear amazingly but they are missing some of Greubel’s best parts like their frosting