Buyer wants to open watch case

[star151]

I have a buyer for my PAM 51 who is requesting we go to a high end watch maker to have the watch case back opened to give him comfort the watch is real. I would probably ask the same if I was dropping that sort of money on a watch. Is there any reason why I should be weary of this request? I will ensure he is first certain he wants to buy it before I agree to the watch maker opening the watch.

Thoughts?

[Psmith]

Welcome to TRF

It's not unreasonable, but imho perhaps a little excessive - which 'high end' watchmaker does the buyer have in mind? They should find a Panerai-modified ETA movement inside. If you have all of the original paperwork to match the watch, then I would consider this good enough for verification - especially if you still have the purchase receipt or can verify the purchase with the dealer/seller. If the watch has no supporting paperwork then an inspection (by someone who knows what they are doing) is probably justified. But as your say, I would want a commitment from the buyer before opening the watch

[dysondiver]

show me the cash and ill show you the gear [s]

if you dont have any paperwork , guess its a fair request , how about just meeting at the ad and have them verify the watch ,,, whos paying though.

[dysondiver]

and as usual ,,, hello and welcome to the forum ,,, why not take a few mins and introduce yourself and tell us all a little about yourself.

[elcompa]

Originally Posted by Psmith

Welcome to TRF

It's not unreasonable, but imho perhaps a little excessive - which 'high end' watchmaker does the buyer have in mind? They should find a Panerai-modified ETA movement inside. If you have all of the original paperwork to match the watch, then I would consider this good enough for verification - especially if you still have the purchase receipt or can verify the purchase with the dealer/seller. If the watch has no supporting paperwork then an inspection (by someone who knows what they are doing) is probably justified. But as your say, I would want a commitment from the buyer before opening the watch

If it will do no harm and lock in the sale, I say let it happen. I think this is reasonable for any Rolex or other high end time piece. Rolex because there are so many really good fakes out there and other high end watches just because of the significant investment. I have had the back off my watch with a jeweler (on the day it arrived) not so much because I didn't believe the seller, but also to ensure that the one who sold it to me wasn't innocently taken advantage of and unknowingly passing on a bad item.

Bottom line up front (BLUF): It is proper "due diligence" in todays market. I support it and I have even done it. I hope this helps.

[Psmith]

Originally Posted by elcompa

If it will do no harm and lock in the sale, I say let it happen. I think this is reasonable for any Rolex or other high end time piece. Rolex because there are so many really good fakes out there and other hight end watches just because of the significant investment. I have had the back off my watch with a jeweler not so much because I didn't believe the seller, but also to ensure that the one who sold it to me wasn't innocently taken advantage of and unknowingly passing on a bad item to me.

BLUF: It is proper "due diligence" in todays market. I support it and I have even done it. I hope this helps.

Absolutely - as long as everyone knows what should be under the bonnet. The PAM 51 uses a modified ETA 7750 (the OP III calibre, in Panerai-speak)

[elcompa]

Originally Posted by Psmith

Absolutely - as long as everyone knows what should be under the bonnet. The PAM 51 uses a modified ETA 7750 (the OP III calibre, in Panerai-speak)

Good point and right you are.

[perpetualman88]

As a seller I have had several clients ask me to show them the movement as well. I of course always oblige but I have to charge them to reseal and pressure test the watch. Only 20 bucks but remember the customer is always right :)

[p_mcgee]

Be careful. Some watch makers don't have the right tool to open a Panerai & can leave it scratched up.

I'd take a few hundred dollars less & find another buyer who won't require the watch to be opened.

[kilyung]

As long as they hand over the money BEFORE it's opened. Just in case the watchmaker damages something.

[nauticajoe]

A little excessive, but if that will close the deal...go for it.

[nishant]

Originally Posted by kilyung

as long as they hand over the money before it's opened. Just in case the watchmaker damages something.

+1

[Cru Jones]

If the price is good, go for it (especially if you trust the jeweler). Maybe come to an understanding with the buyer that if authentic, he assumes the risk of the jeweler scratching the watch?

[T. Ferguson]

The deal should be he buys the watch first, "as is", and gives you the money up front right at the jeweler. The only contingency is if it is not authentic, in which case you give him his money back right then and there and you pay the jeweler for cracking open the case and pressure testing it.

If it's real then he still owns it, including any damage the jeweler did to it during the examination.

[red1108nyc]

I sold a pam 5 years ago and we all know it's simple ETA movement. The seller paid, received the watch and took it to his AD and had it opened. He then opined that his watch maker said the "movement is not real" and he wanted a refund. I subsequently posted a picture of the movement at the risti site and most of the guys jumped in and said the movement looks absolutely perfect.

The seller then decided to keep the watch.

Moral of the story. Not every watch maker knows what the real movement looks like.

Plus, I do not know if the watch maker he decided to use even used the right tool or damaged the case at all.

just a thought from my experience.

[nishant]

Think many of these new-found fears come from the deals gone recently wrong on the Risti site. While the lure of early models is beyond me, I do think that there hardly is any expert who knows it all. The early days of OP were totally disorganized at best and hence, use of cases, movements and stamps are all over the place. I would not have my watch opened by a random AD and be judged for authenticity when really they know sh*t most of the times.

[Hairdude1]

Originally Posted by kilyung

As long as they hand over the money BEFORE it's opened. Just in case the watchmaker damages something.

yes this

[jhcam8]

I've sold vintage Rolexes that buyers have taken to their watchmaker to verify - but, that was after the sale.
Had they not checked out I'd have refunded the buyer.

[mfer]

Originally Posted by T. Ferguson

The deal should be he buys the watch first, "as is", and gives you the money up front right at the jeweler. The only contingency is if it is not authentic, in which case you give him his money back right then and there and you pay the jeweler for cracking open the case and pressure testing it.

If it's real then he still owns it, including any damage the jeweler did to it during the examination.

^^^This.

BTW, I always ask for a 3 day return for anything. I always have my watches opened on my own dime. I have bought and opened a 49 in the past. If you are curious...here you go.


edit, pic had cosc numbers showing, now covered in red.

[swisswatchguy]

Ok, T.Ferguson....Turd Ferguson profile picture is awesome....Its a funny hat, cause its bigger than a regular hat...it s funny....

[star151]

As the OP I may as well close the thread with a final update.

I ended up advising the buyer that I stand behind the authenticity of the watch with the papers (stamped warranty card by AD, COSC Certificate, Books, Box) but would allow the watchmaker/maker to do an external assessment. When we met outside the watchmakers store he asked again and insisted he would pay for the watch to be opened and then sealed and pressure tested to which I agreed.

The watchmaker/valuer did take a close look at the watch and without opening suggested to the buyer that in his opinion it looked real but the buyer still wanted his valuation certificate. I left the watch (and collected a receipt) with the watchmaker/value and 4 hours later he confirmed that the watch was real - he sited that the number on the movement matched the numbers on the COSC certificate and told the buyer he was getting a very good 8 year old watch.

The deal was done but there still a little doubt with the buyer who asked if he could get a photo of my ID to which I smiled and suggested that the police will surely find me if I had wronged him (chain of SMS messages and phone number from a work phone).

Have not heard from the buyer - I am assume he is enjoying a nice watch and a good buy. Amen

[93 Turbo]

Surprised he didn't want you to leave a child if you have any as security.

I didn't know what stage you were at with this deal.

Was going to suggest you take it to the Richemont Group in Sydney (if your local) where they could verify the watch for you. Did this recently for piece of mind with a PAM I picked up in a trade.

They were super nice, verified & pressure tested the watch. Also provided paper work for this and gave me a limited edition catalogue. All free of charge.

That's how you bolt a watch enthusiast onto your brand...

[star151]

Originally Posted by 93 Turbo

Surprised he didn't want you to leave a child if you have any as security.

I didn't know what stage you were at with this deal.

Was going to suggest you take it to the Richemont Group in Sydney (if your local) where they could verify the watch for you. Did this recently for piece of mind with a PAM I picked up in a trade.

They were super nice, verified & pressure tested the watch. Also provided paper work for this and gave me a limited edition catalogue. All free of charge.

That's how you bolt a watch enthusiast onto your brand...

I think he (the buyer did) did but was fobbed off by the guys at Richemont in Sydney. His account was that they would not look at the watch. Perhaps it was a case of discrimination based on his poor English and he did look somewhat scruffy looking. I mean, I feel for the guy a little because he wanted the watch but was paranoid that the watch could be a fake.

Thumbs up to Ronnie at Fredman watches who was pretty fair with his evaluation.

[93 Turbo]

Originally Posted by star151

I think he (the buyer did) did but was fobbed off by the guys at Richemont in Sydney. His account was that they would not look at the watch. Perhaps it was a case of discrimination based on his poor English and he did look somewhat scruffy looking. I mean, I feel for the guy a little because he wanted the watch but was paranoid that the watch could be a fake.

Thumbs up to Ronnie at Fredman watches who was pretty fair with his evaluation.

Good to see Fredman helped you out. Perhaps as your buyer was not the owner of the watch Richemont may have been reluctant to assist. As this is the opposite to my experience as a owner 2 weeks ago. J

[Psmith]

Good to hear the deal was done - the buyer was certainly cautious! Were you equally cautious regarding his payment method - checking bank notes, etc? (!)

[canwatchco]

I have seen watchmakers butcher the caseback in their attempts to open a Panerai. I have even witnessed a Panerai dealer make a mess!

Do not forget that once the caseback is opened, it is no longer warrantied! So, unless it is out of warranty, the choice is always yours. If it is in warranty, find another buyer.

Also, from my experience, Panerai authorized dealers detest facilitating private transactions on a used watch, and may not be obliging when it comes to helping you out.

[Travelller]

Originally Posted by T. Ferguson

The deal should be he buys the watch first, "as is", and gives you the money up front right at the jeweler. The only contingency is if it is not authentic, in which case you give him his money back right then and there and you pay the jeweler for cracking open the case and pressure testing it...

Sounds like the best solution for both parties

Originally Posted by star151

...The deal was done but there still a little doubt with the buyer who asked if he could get a photo of my ID...

That's a bit too much, geez...

[lapince]

If it solid caseback I understand the buyer, I did the same thing for my Rolex sub C and for my 82, the 233 we went to Panerai to have an outside estimation, same for the 28 which is closed, but both of them had all the paperwork, and if I sell one I would want to do it, like this there is no reclamation from the buyer, what stops him from buying a fake, then going to the cops with the fake and saying you sold him? Your word against his, I know it's really twisted but some people are, in any position, buyer or seller, I don't want to be ripped off or some idiot hassling me....