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Old 10 October 2019, 08:34 PM   #31
mongrelnomoad
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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
Did I say NO!
😂

(No.)
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Old 10 October 2019, 08:46 PM   #32
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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
Did I say NO!
I’m going to have to agree with Russell here. They are different watches in different markets. One is hip...one is for old guys who think they are hip...or young guys who think they are old lol

..Except for the guys with the dato lume :).
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Old 10 October 2019, 09:12 PM   #33
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I’m going to have to agree with Russell here. They are different watches in different markets. One is hip...one is for old guys who think they are hip...or young guys who think they are old lol

..Except for the guys with the dato lume :).
I'm confused...is the second option for RM owners??
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Old 10 October 2019, 10:11 PM   #34
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Actually, you are very very wrong on this... very best RMs are 15+ years old... 004, 008, 009, 011, 012...
Agreed!
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Old 11 October 2019, 03:00 AM   #35
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I’m going to have to agree with Russell here. They are different watches in different markets. One is hip...one is for old guys who think they are hip...or young guys who think they are old lol

..Except for the guys with the dato lume :).
The second is RM for sure.
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Old 11 October 2019, 03:53 AM   #36
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I'm confused...is the second option for RM owners??
In London Taaaaaaan, there's a term 'try hard' - someone who is trying so desperately hard to be hip and with it that they become a bit of a self-parody. RM is the definition of 'try hard'.

(I do like some of them, so don't flame me.)
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Old 12 October 2019, 12:33 AM   #37
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Pretty much all watches over 1k aren’t worth it. We buy them because we like them and they are fun toys.
Damn right.
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Old 12 October 2019, 01:25 PM   #38
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The bonbon collection is worth every dollar!
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Old 12 October 2019, 03:18 PM   #39
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IMHO..

RM is not a FAD. Some of the models are bubbles. As long as you pay MSRP, you should be fine.

RM is not about precious metals n diamonds. Even the movement is second. The most important features is *comfort*.. Lots of ppl cannot understand the the 100k+ MSRP because they judge strictly based on look n the material n the function. They didn’t experience the most important feature ie comfort. Why RM went all the way into all latest most advanced material? It’s for comfort on the wrist.

Comfort is the most expensive thing money can buy.

Talk about the 100k+ MSRPs.. they are targeting the global billionaire n multi-millionaires markets.. hundred thousand to them are like loose coins..

As long as RM keep focusing their market campaigns n do the right thing I think they should be alright. Especially when they are charging so much, they will have more room to move.
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Old 12 October 2019, 05:51 PM   #40
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IMHO..

RM is not a FAD. Some of the models are bubbles. As long as you pay MSRP, you should be fine.

RM is not about precious metals n diamonds. Even the movement is second. The most important features is *comfort*.. Lots of ppl cannot understand the the 100k+ MSRP because they judge strictly based on look n the material n the function. They didn’t experience the most important feature ie comfort. Why RM went all the way into all latest most advanced material? It’s for comfort on the wrist.

Comfort is the most expensive thing money can buy.

Talk about the 100k+ MSRPs.. they are targeting the global billionaire n multi-millionaires markets.. hundred thousand to them are like loose coins..

As long as RM keep focusing their market campaigns n do the right thing I think they should be alright. Especially when they are charging so much, they will have more room to move.
This ^^
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Old 12 October 2019, 05:51 PM   #41
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The bonbon collection is worth every dollar!
I wish I could like it. I don't. :(

I really wish I do like that collection, though. I just never see myself wearing any of them.
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Old 12 October 2019, 05:57 PM   #42
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From a separate thread on TRF re: Lange... Lange could learn a thing or two about marketing and hype from Mr. Mille.
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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
Did I say NO!
I love Lange as much as I think you do. That's why they can learn a thing or two from Mille.

The way things are going, Lange is one of the Richemont brands that's languishing when it comes to sales, sales growth, etc. I'd like them to be around for a while / forever.

The "old guys" Ninja refers to won't be able to keep Lange afloat forever -- need to figure out ways to draw in a new and younger crowd of collectors (who will become the new "old guys" in a few decades). Patek learned this long ago.
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Old 12 October 2019, 09:12 PM   #43
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Actually, you are very very wrong on this... very best RMs are 15+ years old... 004, 008, 009, 011, 012...
So true!!
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Old 13 October 2019, 01:31 AM   #44
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IMHO..
RM is not about precious metals n diamonds. Even the movement is second. The most important features is *comfort*.. Lots of ppl cannot understand the the 100k+ MSRP because they judge strictly based on look n the material n the function. They didn’t experience the most important feature ie comfort. Why RM went all the way into all latest most advanced material? It’s for comfort on the wrist.

Comfort is the most expensive thing money can buy.

Talk about the 100k+ MSRPs.. they are targeting the global billionaire n multi-millionaires markets.. hundred thousand to them are like loose coins..
Hahahaha, you've exactly proved my point. Ignore traditional concepts of value (because RM fails to stand on those merits) and let's focus on "most expensivist" marketing. "_______ is the most expensive thing money can buy." "Targeting the billionaire". You've highlighted exactly a brand built on hype not on substance.

The comfort argument cracks me up. I buy my mattress based on comfort. Race car for the wrist? I'll tell you a secret, there's nothing comfortable about race cars. You want the ultimate comfort? Don't wear a watch at all cause you're too rich to care or have personal responsibility to time. Most advanced materials? Carbon fiber and titanium are nothing new. Maybe it is new to deliver a $100k watch with a velcro nylon strap. It would be new for Cartier to deliver jewelry in brown paper bag too but that doesn't make it good though it is more comfortable to carry in my pocket than those stupidly large red boxes.

This is why it's a fad. The second there's a new most expensivist thing for the billionaires to spend their money on, RM will be a past fad. When the Rolex bubble bursts, Rolex still has 100's of years of heritage and one of the best vertically integrated watch making capabilities in the world. The second RM loses favor to the new most expensivist, they have no heritage or internal watchmaking base to evolve the brand. They can keep the hype going, meteorite bon bons, but that process of having to increase hype constantly makes it hard to create a substantive brand for the long term. Look at Rolex, they release a new dial and everyone freaks out. For RM they had to release candy crush for your wrist to get eyeballs and tell people it's worth it because it's comfortable.

This is totally the Wework mentality. Any layman who has had to earn their $ can see on its face it's a money losing business and there's no value there beyond hype and brand. It's really the people who are wealthy enough to spend on frivolity, hype, and newness that are driving RM and that kind of excess is itself a social trend that's already on the decline. Irrespective of your politics, it's clear that the popularity of the billionaire class is in the decline so brands that are defined by that will need to consider their future carefully.
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Old 13 October 2019, 02:22 AM   #45
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RM is a fad, change my view

I do believe RM makes great watches, would not kick one out of bed.
I do believe RM has accomplished something amazing and respect the brand he has built.
If I was a billionaire, I'd buy a couple of RMs.

And

I do believe that on it's current trajectory, it is fad.

"Fad : an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, especially one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities; a craze." - Google

I have not seen any investments or positioning of the brand that suggests they are investing in the long term (ie not short lived) and I have not seen anyone argue that product itself (object's qualities) are primary value metrics.

That said, I don't know everything there is to know about RM, so change my view!
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Old 13 October 2019, 11:44 AM   #46
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Wear if for a day and you’ll realize it’s one of the best luxury sports watches that is out there... key word here is sports
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Old 13 October 2019, 01:22 PM   #47
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Not worth it at all. Not low quality, but at least a 5x premium for just the name. At most 50k would be reasonable for most of their pieces
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Old 13 October 2019, 01:47 PM   #48
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Not worth it at all. Not low quality, but at least a 5x premium for just the name. At most 50k would be reasonable for most of their pieces
Can’t disagree more. I’ve never tried on a RM but I’ve done immense research of the brand and their offerings and they are true marvels of engineering and worth the price of admission. What RM puts into every piece from a design and engineering perspective, is haute horology at its peak. This is even validated by Philippe Dufour who is impressed by what RM is doing.
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Old 13 October 2019, 03:24 PM   #49
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its a veblen good.. they made 4800 watches in 2018. rolex made over a million?

sure it'd be great if they made 10x more watches and prices were cheaper but that isnt their model.

On average, every new Richard Mille sells for around $185,000, and there are three customers chasing every watch it produces
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Old 14 October 2019, 02:57 AM   #50
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I like RM a lot and I love Voutilainen. Some time ago I came across this picture on the internet, sums it up for me.

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Old 14 October 2019, 03:46 AM   #51
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In Philadelphia, its worth 50 bucks
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Old 14 October 2019, 04:38 AM   #52
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Can’t disagree more. I’ve never tried on a RM but I’ve done immense research of the brand and their offerings and they are true marvels of engineering and worth the price of admission. What RM puts into every piece from a design and engineering perspective, is haute horology at its peak. This is even validated by Philippe Dufour who is impressed by what RM is doing.
+1. I think in a similar facet to Pagani. a $3M bespoke hyper car, with incredible attention to detail that has a multi year wait list and yet sources its motor from AMG. See very few people criticizing Pagani for using AMG engines.
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Old 14 October 2019, 05:34 AM   #53
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In Philadelphia, its worth 50 bucks
Not to a karate man, karate men bleed on the inside.
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Old 14 October 2019, 06:19 AM   #54
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A friend said this to me, I kind of see a point in this.


They are not even remotely in the same league in terms of price. It’s not a great comparison. Almost everyone can afford a Panerai, not many can afford an RM.


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Old 14 October 2019, 07:11 AM   #55
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Not to a karate man, karate men bleed on the inside.
Its the quart of blood technique lol
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Old 14 October 2019, 08:32 AM   #56
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Its the quart of blood technique lol


Looking good, Matt.
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Old 14 October 2019, 08:59 AM   #57
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Looking good, Matt.
Feeling good, Neil!
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Old 14 October 2019, 10:04 AM   #58
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I was two years ago in St Martin on Vacation. Same dealer that I bought my Panerai before, his also a dealer for RM he had one in stock red strap for $150k, when I put it on, it ‏felt like a toy watch, I would never will spend this kind of money even if I have it. Just my 5c


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Old 14 October 2019, 01:19 PM   #59
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Ppl who said they will not buy a RM for xyz reasons obviously are not the market RM intend to target. While those who are buying, RM has done their homework n to the buyers they are the hottest watch company.
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Old 14 October 2019, 02:27 PM   #60
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Hahahaha, you've exactly proved my point. Ignore traditional concepts of value (because RM fails to stand on those merits) and let's focus on "most expensivist" marketing. "_______ is the most expensive thing money can buy." "Targeting the billionaire". You've highlighted exactly a brand built on hype not on substance.

The comfort argument cracks me up. I buy my mattress based on comfort. Race car for the wrist? I'll tell you a secret, there's nothing comfortable about race cars. You want the ultimate comfort? Don't wear a watch at all cause you're too rich to care or have personal responsibility to time. Most advanced materials? Carbon fiber and titanium are nothing new. Maybe it is new to deliver a $100k watch with a velcro nylon strap. It would be new for Cartier to deliver jewelry in brown paper bag too but that doesn't make it good though it is more comfortable to carry in my pocket than those stupidly large red boxes.

This is why it's a fad. The second there's a new most expensivist thing for the billionaires to spend their money on, RM will be a past fad. When the Rolex bubble bursts, Rolex still has 100's of years of heritage and one of the best vertically integrated watch making capabilities in the world. The second RM loses favor to the new most expensivist, they have no heritage or internal watchmaking base to evolve the brand. They can keep the hype going, meteorite bon bons, but that process of having to increase hype constantly makes it hard to create a substantive brand for the long term. Look at Rolex, they release a new dial and everyone freaks out. For RM they had to release candy crush for your wrist to get eyeballs and tell people it's worth it because it's comfortable.

This is totally the Wework mentality. Any layman who has had to earn their $ can see on its face it's a money losing business and there's no value there beyond hype and brand. It's really the people who are wealthy enough to spend on frivolity, hype, and newness that are driving RM and that kind of excess is itself a social trend that's already on the decline. Irrespective of your politics, it's clear that the popularity of the billionaire class is in the decline so brands that are defined by that will need to consider their future carefully.
Sorry, you've applied a lot of fallacious logic in making your arguments. To understand RM, first, you must put yourself in the position of someone who can afford RM (or several of them).

What is the traditional concept of value here?
Rolex watches used to be very cheap, Rolex was not a luxury brand. But now it is. Why is that?

Why is a RM worth more than a Rolex? Why is a Rolex worth more than a Seiko?

You see, you are trying to justify the cost of an item, where that cost isn't easily justified, the normal cost/benefit analysis doesn't really apply to luxury goods. That's why you can buy a t shirt from Costco for $15 and at the same time, you can get one from Givenchy for $700. What makes the Givenchy top better? I could argue that the Givenchy top is more comfortable, it looks better, it has brand recognition, it is made of better quality material, it is made in Italy as opposed to China etc, but these are all subjective. The real reason is the perceived exclusivity and scarcity. Anyone can afford a $15 top, but a lot of people cannot justify spending $700 due to other expenses/commitments in their life. So you see, just like precious metals, for whatever reason, human beings value scarce items. Gold is pretty to look at it, but would anybody value it, if it was everywhere? It is scarce, it is expensive, hard to find etc.

Your Rolex example with the dial, actually works in the favour of RM watches. Rolex releases a dial and everyone freaks out- True, because almost any Tom, Dick and Harry can afford a Rolex. The target audience is massive. Realistically, anyone with a decent job and without a drug habit, can buy a Rolex, should they so wish it. Not everyone of course, but pretty much anyone in the middle class and above. When RM releases something good (and I agree, that Candy Crush release is BS lol), only a small percentage of people freak out, because, only a small percentage of people can realistically afford one. Supply is so tight, that the demand is always there. The world has plenty of multi-millionaires and billionaires....

From a horological point of view, RM watches use innovative materials, have unique designs and are very resilient. They're easily identifiable by even non-watch enthusiasts. The guys who buy them? Usually young, often successful and almost always watch enthusiasts. In my circle, their RM pieces sit next to their Pateks and APs.

The brand has been around for long enough to not be a fad. Again, the watches have unmatched comfort and are easily recognised...but ultimately, they're known to be expensive and hard to acquire. I think RM have taken off because their watches are actually awesome. $200,000 awesome? Well, if you have $200,000 lying around, yes. Just like a SS Rolex is pretty awesome if you have the funds lying around.

A lot of people say "I don't like RM, they are ugly, bla bla" Fair enough. People say that about Ferraris and Lamborghinis too. Not everyone is going to like every watch. But, often, those who criticise the brand, aren't in the target audience. They couldn't afford the watch even if they liked it and part of me thinks if they could realistically acquire one, they would seriously consider the brand as opposed to write it off. Unfortunately a lot of people attach their self worth to what they can and cannot afford and therefore, often require a justification for not being able to afford something (be it property, a car, a watch etc).

So why did I personally justify buying a few RM watches:
1: I like the brand.
2: I love their designs.They look great and are comfortable.
3: I am a WIS, a non WIS would never spend more than a couple hundred on a watch.
4: I was after something different, something I wouldn't see on a daily basis.
5: I'm not worried about a bubble, the economics, losing etc. You'll find most RM owners won't be impacted by a loss in value of their watches, even if they were to sink to 0. If I was stretching even a little to get into the market- different story.
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