geneva seal!

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

A few specimen watches are submitted for inspection, fees are paid, then the manufacturers churn out that particular model, complete w/ Geneva Seal without any further inspections taking place. It's a pure marketing exercise.

FPJ are one of the few watch houses who are actually located in the Canton, btw.

No, EVERY watch is inspected and tested as per the 12 requirements, documented, and submitted to Timelab before getting the certificate.

And Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin are but two giants you neglected to mention.

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

It seems that's what the unqualified Kid at PP wanted, no one to check and balance their efforts. And it's been downhill ever since imho.

In recent years have been saying to 'trust what you see' versus what a company claims (Patek, Panerai, etc).

MB&F, H. Moser, Czapek, Armin Strom, Roger W Smith, and others don't need a 'seal'... use your eyes (and a 10x loop).

And so how are you supposed to see the perlage for example on the plate under the date wheel with a loop? 90% of a movement will never be seen by anyone other than the next watch maker who services the watch.

[tymonster]

People don’t appreciate the seal until they have one. I know I didn’t.

Although I can’t even hack the seconds to sync to a clock but hey… it looks SO GOOD




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[HAL330]

Originally Posted by tymonster

People don’t appreciate the seal until they have one. I know I didn’t.

Although I can’t even hack the seconds to sync to a clock but hey… it looks SO GOOD




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Can’t hack my nearly $200000 (market price) 5711/1r either. And by 2018 when I bought it they had gone with their own “PP” which was bullSiat

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by HAL330

No, EVERY watch is inspected and tested as per the 12 requirements, documented, and submitted to Timelab before getting the certificate.

And Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin are but two giants you neglected to mention.

That's not true, but anyway PP now have their own seal, which they claim is more stringent than the Geneva Seal. Let the battle of the Seals commence!

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

That's not true, but anyway PP now have their own seal, which they claim is more stringent than the Geneva Seal. Let the battle of the Seals commence!

when you've done a tour at VC, get back to me.. I did one 4 years ago.

As for PP doing their own.... right. I guess Enron's own internal auditors did a better job than the IRS too.

[RyanJ]

Double Post somehow.

[RyanJ]

Originally Posted by eric23

Great info. I guess that is why it costs so much for a Patek!

If I am not mistaken, Patek does not even submit to get the Geneva seal anymore. From what I read is the Geneva Seal does not have any requirements for the performance of the movement. I think they updated that piece.

One of the obligations is that the movement must be manufactured in the Canton of Geneva. That also impacts it for some brands, like Rolex.

Pretty soon all the big brands will have their own seal...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by HAL330

And so how are you supposed to see the perlage for example on the plate under the date wheel with a loop? 90% of a movement will never be seen by anyone other than the next watch maker who services the watch.

Excellent point, truly is. We all know Panerai is guilty of decoration only where seen... but this is why word gets out regardless of what the manufacturer may claim... and why discussion boards like this are helpful (as are honest reviewers, not those who just parrot press releases aaaaaand just so happen to sell it).

So with knowing which brands to trust, then comes looking at the actual effort / time / skill. A Rexhep Rexhepi surely takes higher handcrafting skill than ________.

Of course you might prefer a classic Breguet decoration versus ________.

I do like the Geneva Seal, and METAS too for real-word testing. Sure COSC yet any truly high-quality modern movements should meet COSC.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by RyanJ

If I am not mistaken, Patek does not even submit to get the Geneva seal anymore. From what I read is the Geneva Seal does not have any requirements for the performance of the movement.

One of the obligations is that the movement must be manufactured in the Canton of Geneva. That also impacts it for some brands, like Rolex.

Pure marketing.

The amount of misinformation on here is insane... While the main origin intent of the seal was focused on the aesthetic and finish quality of the movement, this has since been changed as of 2012.. in fact the seal DOES have standards since 2012, they have added at least 3.. there is a test for testing the claimed power reserve, and a 7 day continuous test where the movement must not be off by 1 minute at the end of the 7th day... then a -.0.5 bar to +3 bar (or claimed water tightness) must be demonstrated.. so these aren't the tightest requirements, but they are baseline.. in the case of VC, their own internal target is +5/-2 seconds a day..

All results must be documented digitally and sent directly to the TimeLab in order to issue the seal documents and number for the complete watch.

The seal now also applies to case finish, whereas before it was just movement.

Patek claims to have stopped using the seal for the lack of functionality reasons, which was true in 2009, and some pieces like Roger Dubois (I believe it was them) were in fact failing some functionality tests while passing the aesthetic tests... so they made a revision, and Patek went their own way claiming the Geneva Seal wasn't strict enough... which it now is.

If this was just pure marketing, like I said.. why wouldn't everyone just do it and get the nice benefit of said "marketing".

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

I do like the Geneva Seal, and METAS too for real-word testing. Sure COSC yet any truly high-quality modern movements should meet COSC.

Right, COSC has been superseded by most decent Swiss makers... Geneva Seal however most certainly hasn't (at least not in all aspects, especially relating to finish work).

We can "Trust" Patek and AP to be doing their best, and self certifying with their own seals, but for me.. I like the Swiss bureaucratic documentation approach philosophy.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Excellent point, truly is. We all know Panerai is guilty of decoration only where seen... but this is why word gets out regardless of what the manufacturer may claim... and why discussion boards like this are helpful (as are honest reviewers, not those who just parrot press releases aaaaaand just so happen to sell it).

So with knowing which brands to trust, then comes looking at the actual effort / time / skill. A Rexhep Rexhepi surely takes higher handcrafting skill than ________.

Of course you might prefer a classic Breguet decoration versus ________.

I do like the Geneva Seal, and METAS too for real-word testing. Sure COSC yet any truly high-quality modern movements should meet COSC.

You just HAD to drag Panerai into this

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by HAL330

Right, COSC has been superseded by most decent Swiss makers... Geneva Seal however most certainly hasn't (at least not in all aspects, especially relating to finish work).

We can "Trust" Patek and AP to be doing their best, and self certifying with their own seals, but for me.. I like the Swiss bureaucratic documentation approach philosophy.

Agreed, I'll take Geneva Seal over whatever PP and AP....

Originally Posted by brandrea

You just HAD to drag Panerai into this

Well, they're too easy and everyone already knows anyway. Not like it's one of those 'Swiss Secrets'

But hey, I have two PAMs so I knew going into 'em the real deal. Oops, make that three PAMs if we include the table clock.

[RyanJ]

Originally Posted by HAL330

The amount of misinformation on here is insane... While the main origin intent of the seal was focused on the aesthetic and finish quality of the movement, this has since been changed as of 2012.. in fact the seal DOES have standards since 2012, they have added at least 3.. there is a test for testing the claimed power reserve, and a 7 day continuous test where the movement must not be off by 1 minute at the end of the 7th day... then a -.0.5 bar to +3 bar (or claimed water tightness) must be demonstrated.. so these aren't the tightest requirements, but they are baseline.. in the case of VC, their own internal target is +5/-2 seconds a day..

All results must be documented digitally and sent directly to the TimeLab in order to issue the seal documents and number for the complete watch.

The seal now also applies to case finish, whereas before it was just movement. The fact that it used to require being in Geneva was silly. Seemed like a way to exclude other manufacturers even if their movements and watches were better.

Patek claims to have stopped using the seal for the lack of functionality reasons, which was true in 2009, and some pieces like Roger Dubois (I believe it was them) were in fact failing some functionality tests while passing the aesthetic tests... so they made a revision, and Patek went their own way claiming the Geneva Seal wasn't strict enough... which it now is.

If this was just pure marketing, like I said.. why wouldn't everyone just do it and get the nice benefit of said "marketing".

I updated my post right after that one to include that they finally updated the seal to include looking at the movement. However, for the longest time it did not care about how well the movement worked. That is, supposedly, why Patek left.

It looks like in 2011 and in 2014 the Geneva seal got a huge upgrade which may have improved it.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by RyanJ

I updated my post right after that one to include that they finally updated the seal to include looking at the movement. However, for the longest time it did not care about how well the movement worked. That is, supposedly, why Patek left.

All of these seals are marketing. Do they have some merit, maybe...

I guess in the end, any brand can either take pride or not in the finish on a watch., for me finish is critical when buying... didn't care for the old Rolex stuff (pre 2000's) because they were so bad.. that said, while Rolex mostly finishes with an automated process, at least it's nice...

however, Geneva Seal requires the finish to all be by hand, and that forces a compliance that non-GS brands don't have to live up to.

[RyanJ]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I guess in the end, any brand can either take pride or not in the finish on a watch., for me finish is critical when buying... didn't care for the old Rolex stuff (pre 2000's) because they were so bad.. that said, while Rolex mostly finishes with an automated process, at least it's nice...

however, Geneva Seal requires the finish to all be by hand, and that forces a compliance that non-GS brands don't have to live up to.

You are correct. It is up to us as the customer to decide what we want in our watches. Sometimes I want a super hand finished movement (e.g. an ALS 1815 chrono) and sometimes I just throw on a Rolex Explorer with virtually no hand finishing.

I guess all the differences is a good thing so we have a nice variation of watches to choose from.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by RyanJ

You are correct. It is up to us as the customer to decide what we want in our watches. Sometimes I want a super hand finished movement (e.g. an ALS 1815 chrono) and sometimes I just throw on a Rolex Explorer with virtually no hand finishing.

I guess all the differences is a good thing so we have a nice variation of watches to choose from.

Yeah, but I just hate it when people always discount any sort of watch company mark of success as "marketing" .. I mean it's ALL marketing at some point, that's how commercial business do business... Rolex, AP, VC, makes no difference..

Matter of fact, Tim Masso is on record stating that VC (the main player with the Geneva Seal) has the absolute worst marketing of any watch brand... they should be selling better than Patek, and yet the barely make 25000 watches a year.

[HAL330]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTlGa5UmgkI

[rolexpatek363]

I'm guessing somebody here owns a VC, and is very proud of it.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

I'm guessing somebody here owns a VC, and is very proud of it.

close... someone here has decided to get one, after waiting 20+ years to do it. You can see in my signature what I currently have.

[Old Expat Beast]

Reminds me of how a $200 Seiko is ISO 6425 certified as a dive watch but no Rolex watch is, as far as I know.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by HAL330

So... requiring hand finishing case and movements, anglage, black polish, Geneva stripes, perlage and hand engraving are all marketing hype now?

If it's marketing.. is it good marketing then? Effective? And why aren't all the manufactures in Geneva taking advantage of it? No desire to sell more watches?

Originally Posted by HAL330

The amount of misinformation on here is insane... While the main origin intent of the seal was focused on the aesthetic and finish quality of the movement, this has since been changed as of 2012.. in fact the seal DOES have standards since 2012, they have added at least 3.. there is a test for testing the claimed power reserve, and a 7 day continuous test where the movement must not be off by 1 minute at the end of the 7th day... then a -.0.5 bar to +3 bar (or claimed water tightness) must be demonstrated.. so these aren't the tightest requirements, but they are baseline.. in the case of VC, their own internal target is +5/-2 seconds a day..

All results must be documented digitally and sent directly to the TimeLab in order to issue the seal documents and number for the complete watch.

The seal now also applies to case finish, whereas before it was just movement.

Patek claims to have stopped using the seal for the lack of functionality reasons, which was true in 2009, and some pieces like Roger Dubois (I believe it was them) were in fact failing some functionality tests while passing the aesthetic tests... so they made a revision, and Patek went their own way claiming the Geneva Seal wasn't strict enough... which it now is.

If this was just pure marketing, like I said.. why wouldn't everyone just do it and get the nice benefit of said "marketing".

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Reminds me of how a $200 Seiko is ISO 6425 certified as a dive watch but no Rolex watch is, as far as I know.

Have to agree and back before the Swiss COSC was founded watches like the Seiko Grand wiped the floor with all the Swiss brands in competition tests.Now if you were to take let's say 100 non WIS people at random from the street and show them a £5,000 Rolex and say a £35,000 Patek Philip or many other high end brands. I would say that 90- 95% would choose the Rolex watch over the Patek/or other brand. Simply because of the brand awareness and the fact that the word "Rolex" is always linked to luxury,and quality through the amazingly shrewd and clever marketing though the years without the aid of a Geneva seal.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by HAL330

Matter of fact, Tim Masso is on record stating that VC (the main player with the Geneva Seal) has the absolute worst marketing of any watch brand... they should be selling better than Patek, and yet the barely make 25000 watches a year.

Perhaps that's the point, not every brand wants to churn-n-burn 60,000 pieces a year and thus compromise in-house quality as Patek has been doing. VC making 25k timepieces a year is VERY impressive.

Some TRUE independent brands are happy making less than 400 pieces a year, and they're far higher quality than VC, PP, AP....

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Reminds me of how a $200 Seiko is ISO 6425 certified as a dive watch but no Rolex watch is, as far as I know.

Man of few words, and always a salient point

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Reminds me of how a $200 Seiko is ISO 6425 certified as a dive watch but no Rolex watch is, as far as I know.

That is actually not completely correct...

https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-bl...e-watches.html

[enjoythemusic]

I still vote METAS.

Ceramic_Black_Strap.jpg

Speedmaster-Moonwatch-Wrist.jpg

[HAL330]

Yes Absolutely. Omega and Tudor > Vacheron Constantin.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by HAL330

Yes Absolutely. Omega and Tudor > Vacheron Constantin.

But none of those are as accurate as my Hamilton.

265977523_2320593384743696_2200642068602398413_n.jpg

[SS Oyster]

Why is this thread in the ROLEX section?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Reminds me of how a $200 Seiko is ISO 6425 certified as a dive watch but no Rolex watch is, as far as I know.

Originally Posted by HAL330

That is actually not completely correct...

https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-bl...e-watches.html

Which Rolex watch is ISO 6425 certified then?