(Sort of) money aside Patrimony v Calatrava v Saxonia thin

[seabreeze]

Time for a really nice proper dress watch.
I love the saxonia thin and ALS....but The Patrimony and Calatrava are also very beautiful without a doubt, but many of the models would be out of reach, so it would be a simplier and or/older vs new.

General thoughts for elegance ?

[bourgognebob]

Would help if you had a specific calatrava in mind

[Guppydriver]

Just the quantity of fine, pre owned, Calatravas should give you many options.

I'm an ALS fanboy, but for a simple, elegant, and thin dress watch, going with a Patek seems prudent.

[seabreeze]

Originally Posted by bourgognebob

Would help if you had a specific calatrava in mind

Yes - Financially I am not in the calatrava gold universe, however I have seen some simler older attainable models.....
simple, elegant, stick dial, gold or rose gold, white or champagne dial.
5196R for example....if price was not an object for me 5227R-001 beautiful, but a bit too steep, unless i trip and fall at a walmart !

I know there is alot of knowledge here about theses lines so all suggestions are welcome.
Does that help?

[sinkholeninja]

As a recent owner of Saxonia thin in RG, it’s a perfect dress watch.

[seabreeze]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

As a recent owner of Saxonia thin in RG, it’s a perfect dress watch.

beautiful indeed.....this was my first instinct

[piratfisk]

Gun to my head today, I'd pick a 5196G, if you remove money from the equation. IDK how to verbalize it, but I don't care for the VC Pat. I do really like ALS & the Sax Thin is very nice. You do not need to know the seconds (usually ever, especially in formal settings), but the small seconds of the 37mm PP is very nice.

[vitalsigns]

Tough choice.

As far as pure horological punch and value, I think the ALS is the clear winner.

When you add styling into the mix it gets a bit more difficult. The ALS is a beauty, but doesn't dress down as well, whereas the 5196 can more easily be worn casually. The VC seems to sit between the ALS and the 5196 in this regard -- more dressy than the 5196 but less dressy than the ALS.

The 5196 of course has a solid caseback and a rather diminutive cal. 215 movement; the movement's fine but the ALS outpaces the 5196 here. The Patrimony has a small movement too.

So, intellectually, I like the ALS more, but based on what would get more wrist time (more versatile) and still be a very nice watch, my choices would come down to the 5196 and VC, with the 5196 likely getting the edge for that reason. If you toss a VC Traditionnelle into the mix, then the choice is more difficult.

If the dressiness of the ALS is not a concern, then I think it's the clear choice of the three.

[seabreeze]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

Tough choice.

As far as pure horological punch and value, I think the ALS is the clear winner.

When you add styling into the mix it gets a bit more difficult. The ALS is a beauty, but doesn't dress down as well, whereas the 5196 can more easily be worn casually. The VC seems to sit between the ALS and the 5196 in this regard -- more dressy than the 5196 but less dressy than the ALS.

The 5196 of course has a solid caseback and a rather diminutive cal. 215 movement; the movement's fine but the ALS outpaces the 5196 here. The Patrimony has a small movement too.

So, intellectually, I like the ALS more, but based on what would get more wrist time (more versatile) and still be a very nice watch, my choices would come down to the 5196 and VC, with the 5196 likely getting the edge for that reason. If you toss a VC Traditionnelle into the mix, then the choice is more difficult.

If the dressiness of the ALS is not a concern, then I think it's the clear choice of the three.

Dress, this is not a concern. I have worn a no date sub with everyrhing from tuxedos to bathing suits for the past 10 years 99% of the time despite the watches in my collection.

So I am adjusting the Collection to things I really want to wear

I am really encouraged by the positive feedback for the Saxonia thin. I know the heritage of the other brands but I keep coming back to this watch as being everything I need for the perfect dress watch

While I am waiting and figuring it out,
At some point, I stumbled on this lovely white Dial seamaster , which was quite affordable by these other watch standards, and looking forward to it. This could be my dress down dress up watch ha ha.


I appreciate the detailed response


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[Justindo]

The Patrimony is a fairly large watch for a dress watch while most Calatravas and the Saxonia Thin are quite a bit smaller, so wrist size would be a factor. You don't really narrow it down as to which Calatrava, so that would be helpful for giving advice, as you or others might like some more than others. That written, Lange is going to have the best movement finishing of the three, which is something but not everything.

Have you looked at the 38mm VC Traditionnelle? It's a good Goldilocks size and dresses down better than the Lange and better than some Calatravas, which may be a factor too. You seem to indicate that you don't care about dressiness, as you wore a Submarinier 99% of the time, but then why are you looking at a dress watch at all? I would recommend looking at all of these and others in person. Also, the Omega you posted is a nice piece and if you're looking for steel, you may want to look at JLC too, which slots between Omega and the other three brands you're looking at. JLC in steel offers a lot of watch for the money, especially pre-owned, although their list prices have shot up a lot in the last year.

[bourgognebob]

Originally Posted by seabreeze

Yes - Financially I am not in the calatrava gold universe, however I have seen some simler older attainable models.....
simple, elegant, stick dial, gold or rose gold, white or champagne dial.
5196R for example....if price was not an object for me 5227R-001 beautiful, but a bit too steep, unless i trip and fall at a walmart !

I know there is alot of knowledge here about theses lines so all suggestions are welcome.
Does that help?

I say go for the calatrava. It’s a watch that I’d say is more versatile, comes from an uber iconic brand and could be a safer bet when it comes to value retention (if that matters to you)

I see the recommendation of the 5196 which I’d suggest too but also the 6119 in either configuration if you can make it work financially. Although some will say the 6119 is too big but it’s all a matter of opinion. I’m a fan and think the size works on my 7.5in wrist and also love the hobnail bezel.

[seabreeze]

Originally Posted by Justindo

The Patrimony is a fairly large watch for a dress watch while most Calatravas and the Saxonia Thin are quite a bit smaller, so wrist size would be a factor. You don't really narrow it down as to which Calatrava, so that would be helpful for giving advice, as you or others might like some more than others. That written, Lange is going to have the best movement finishing of the three, which is something but not everything.

Have you looked at the 38mm VC Traditionnelle? It's a good Goldilocks size and dresses down better than the Lange and better than some Calatravas, which may be a factor too. You seem to indicate that you don't care about dressiness, as you wore a Submarinier 99% of the time, but then why are you looking at a dress watch at all? I would recommend looking at all of these and others in person. Also, the Omega you posted is a nice piece and if you're looking for steel, you may want to look at JLC too, which slots between Omega and the other three brands you're looking at. JLC in steel offers a lot of watch for the money, especially pre-owned, although their list prices have shot up a lot in the last year.

Thank you
A couple of things – I have been very interested in the JC Altron, but honestly want to put on my wrist. It was a bit of a letdown from the photos but maybe I’ll try that again.

I would love a dress watch precisely because I have relied on the sub mostly out of habit. Something I gifted myself when I turned 50 some 11 years ago and it remains very special. So in that sense I’m not looking for versatility for this but really dressy class and elegance, Even if I don’t wear it much, it will be that special watch for the right circumstance. Does that make sense. ?

Also, I have an enormous respect for the legendary Swiss branch, I remain always in admiration of German manufacturing . Nobody makes mechanical things better than the Germans in my opinion. That trying to cause a fight with that statement it’s more of an expression or generalization, taking nothing away from the swiss brands.
Or the Japanese, which I envy for their artistry and commitment but not really for their watchmaking

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[seabreeze]

Originally Posted by seabreeze

Thank you
A couple of things – I have been very interested in the JC Altron, but honestly want to put on my wrist. It was a bit of a letdown from the photos but maybe I’ll try that again.

I would love a dress watch precisely because I have relied on the sub mostly out of habit. Something I gifted myself when I turned 50 some 11 years ago and it remains very special. So in that sense I’m not looking for versatility for this but really dressy class and elegance, Even if I don’t wear it much, it will be that special watch for the right circumstance. Does that make sense. ?

Also, I have an enormous respect for the legendary Swiss branch, I remain always in admiration of German manufacturing . Nobody makes mechanical things better than the Germans in my opinion. That trying to cause a fight with that statement it’s more of an expression or generalization, taking nothing away from the swiss brands.
Or the Japanese, which I envy for their artistry and commitment but not really for their watchmaking

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Some pretty bad typos and Siri gaffs in there - I’ll try again

Originally Posted by Justindo

The Patrimony is a fairly large watch for a dress watch while most Calatravas and the Saxonia Thin are quite a bit smaller, so wrist size would be a factor. You don't really narrow it down as to which Calatrava, so that would be helpful for giving advice, as you or others might like some more than others. That written, Lange is going to have the best movement finishing of the three, which is something but not everything.

Have you looked at the 38mm VC Traditionnelle? It's a good Goldilocks size and dresses down better than the Lange and better than some Calatravas, which may be a factor too. You seem to indicate that you don't care about dressiness, as you wore a Submarinier 99% of the time, but then why are you looking at a dress watch at all? I would recommend looking at all of these and others in person. Also, the Omega you posted is a nice piece and if you're looking for steel, you may want to look at JLC too, which slots between Omega and the other three brands you're looking at. JLC in steel offers a lot of watch for the money, especially pre-owned, although their list prices have shot up a lot in the last year.

Thank you
A couple of things – I have been very interested in the JC ultra thin moon., but honestly, when I put one on my wrist. It was a bit of a letdown from the photos but maybe I’ll try that again.

I would love a dress watch precisely because I have relied on the sub mostly out of habit. Something I gifted myself when I turned 50 some 11 years ago and it remains very special. So in that sense I’m not looking for versatility for this but really dressy class and elegance, Even if I don’t wear it much, it will be that special watch for the right circumstance. Does that make sense. ?

Also, I have an enormous respect for the legendary Swiss brands, but I admire German engineering and manufacturing . Nobody makes mechanical things better than the Germans in my opinion. When think of Swiss I think of hospitality !

Not trying to create controversy with that statement it’s more of an expression or generalization.

Or the Japanese, which I admire for their artistry and commitment to excellence but not really for their watchmaking.

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[RaZCaL]

How about a VC Traditionnelle? My one and only dress watch. Love it!



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[noobs]

My only dress watch. I chose this one because of its traditional but also modern look. Depending on the light, it looks yellow gold/black dial (like on the picture), but it's actually rose gold/dark blue dial.

[nyc2la]

There are some wonderful options in the three brands you mentioned.

On the Lange front, it has nice variety.


The 1815 has some nice options within the line. Here’s a 40mm platinum.




And the Grand Lange 1 / Lange 1 (depending on wrist size) is a fantastic watch not to be overlooked.

[Justindo]

Originally Posted by seabreeze

Some pretty bad typos and Siri gaffs in there - I’ll try again




Thank you
A couple of things – I have been very interested in the JC ultra thin moon., but honestly, when I put one on my wrist. It was a bit of a letdown from the photos but maybe I’ll try that again.

I would love a dress watch precisely because I have relied on the sub mostly out of habit. Something I gifted myself when I turned 50 some 11 years ago and it remains very special. So in that sense I’m not looking for versatility for this but really dressy class and elegance, Even if I don’t wear it much, it will be that special watch for the right circumstance. Does that make sense. ?

Also, I have an enormous respect for the legendary Swiss brands, but I admire German engineering and manufacturing . Nobody makes mechanical things better than the Germans in my opinion. When think of Swiss I think of hospitality !

Not trying to create controversy with that statement it’s more of an expression or generalization.

Or the Japanese, which I admire for their artistry and commitment to excellence but not really for their watchmaking.

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I completely understand the want of a dress watch. To add to my previous post, look at the Lange 1815 line, which is my favorite of the brand, but they are more expensive than the Saxonias, albeit more versatile.

As for JLC, if the Master Ultra Thin didn't inspire you, look at the regular Master Control line and the Reverso line. Have fun with the hunt!

[Patekfinder]

I would look at a Cellini. You get a tremendous amount of watch for the money. I’m a big Patek collector, own a 5227 and 5296 as far as calatravas go… however my Cellini Moonphase gets the most wrist time.


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[Patekfinder]

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[seabreeze]

Originally Posted by Patekfinder

I would look at a Cellini. You get a tremendous amount of watch for the money. I’m a big Patek collector, own a 5227 and 5296 as far as calatravas go… however my Cellini Moonphase gets the most wrist time.


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I agree completely about the Cellini, But I feel like its time to step out of the rolex box and do this first. I have long admired JLC and Lange and would love to acquire one probably of each before anything else.

As for the trinity, to be honest, i would be punching above my financial weight and again they fall under watches I should own. Likely ending up with a more entry level model just to have one, and thats not me.


I am drawn to a few models The Saxonia Thin, The ultra thin although it felt tiny and I an very impressed by the Glassutte Panomatic Lunar

[Patekfinder]

Originally Posted by seabreeze

I agree completely about the Cellini, But I feel like its time to step out of the rolex box and do this first. I have long admired JLC and Lange and would love to acquire one probably of each before anything else.

As for the trinity, to be honest, i would be punching above my financial weight and again they fall under watches I should own. Likely ending up with a more entry level model just to have one, and thats not me.


I am drawn to a few models The Saxonia Thin, The ultra thin although it felt tiny and I an very impressed by the Glassutte Panomatic Lunar

As someone who is a fairly large Patek collector, I’ve owned everything short of a minute repeater in their collection, I had ignored Rolex and the Cellini for two decades because I was caught up in the holy trinity nonsense. It was nearly FIFTEEN YEARS after I started collecting Patek that I saw a Cellini in the wild, from a distance I was blown away. Walked up to the guy and asked him what is that, and he goes “It’s a Rolex… a Cellini.” I couldn’t believe how well executed the Cellini is. Bought a Moonphase the following week and it has been my GO TO dress watch while my Calatravas sit collecting dust.


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[enjoythemusic]

Longines makes some very nice formal timepieces. If you decide on a Calatrava, there's an abundance of reasonable 'older' models that work well with suits / tux events. Breguet is a solid choice

[seabreeze]

Originally Posted by Patekfinder

As someone who is a fairly large Patek collector, I’ve owned everything short of a minute repeater in their collection, I had ignored Rolex and the Cellini for two decades because I was caught up in the holy trinity nonsense. It was nearly FIFTEEN YEARS after I started collecting Patek that I saw a Cellini in the wild, from a distance I was blown away. Walked up to the guy and asked him what is that, and he goes “It’s a Rolex… a Cellini.” I couldn’t believe how well executed the Cellini is. Bought a Moonphase the following week and it has been my GO TO dress watch while my Calatravas sit collecting dust.


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I love stories like this.....and maybe i will because i love it too......another reason to appreciate the forum,

[windingmybusiness]

Originally Posted by Justindo

The Patrimony is a fairly large watch for a dress watch while most Calatravas and the Saxonia Thin are quite a bit smaller, so wrist size would be a factor. You don't really narrow it down as to which Calatrava, so that would be helpful for giving advice, as you or others might like some more than others. That written, Lange is going to have the best movement finishing of the three, which is something but not everything.

Have you looked at the 38mm VC Traditionnelle? It's a good Goldilocks size and dresses down better than the Lange and better than some Calatravas, which may be a factor too. You seem to indicate that you don't care about dressiness, as you wore a Submarinier 99% of the time, but then why are you looking at a dress watch at all? I would recommend looking at all of these and others in person. Also, the Omega you posted is a nice piece and if you're looking for steel, you may want to look at JLC too, which slots between Omega and the other three brands you're looking at. JLC in steel offers a lot of watch for the money, especially pre-owned, although their list prices have shot up a lot in the last year.

I also prefer traditionelle to patrimony. That would be my choice.

If going for Lange, spring for the Lange 1.


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[DJH1977]

I have white gold Lange thin and rose gold Patek 5227. If I had to pick, it would be the white gold Lange; putting a brown strap makes it casual if you want that look, and darker colors are proper dress.

[Loosetoe]

Calatrava 6119G. Good lord this is a magnificent watch. Simple and elegant

[codecow]

Since I already have a couple Calatrava I would opt for a platinum Patrimony.

[usmc_k9_vet]

Originally Posted by Patekfinder

As someone who is a fairly large Patek collector, I’ve owned everything short of a minute repeater in their collection, I had ignored Rolex and the Cellini for two decades because I was caught up in the holy trinity nonsense. It was nearly FIFTEEN YEARS after I started collecting Patek that I saw a Cellini in the wild, from a distance I was blown away. Walked up to the guy and asked him what is that, and he goes “It’s a Rolex… a Cellini.” I couldn’t believe how well executed the Cellini is. Bought a Moonphase the following week and it has been my GO TO dress watch while my Calatravas sit collecting dust.


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The way they did that specific Cellini is pretty special. I have tried it on and was also blown away. Very well executed and packed full of features. Your pictures are making me want to explore picking one up again. It’s also nice that, I believe, it is the only one they did with a moonphase in that metal, meaning it’s a reference unique compared to all others.


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[Jmaster]

Originally Posted by Patekfinder

As someone who is a fairly large Patek collector, I’ve owned everything short of a minute repeater in their collection, I had ignored Rolex and the Cellini for two decades because I was caught up in the holy trinity nonsense. It was nearly FIFTEEN YEARS after I started collecting Patek that I saw a Cellini in the wild, from a distance I was blown away. Walked up to the guy and asked him what is that, and he goes “It’s a Rolex… a Cellini.” I couldn’t believe how well executed the Cellini is. Bought a Moonphase the following week and it has been my GO TO dress watch while my Calatravas sit collecting dust.


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Very interesting perspective coming from someone who’s a Patek collector.

I have a completely opposite view on the Rolex Cellini line. I was underwhelmed with the Cellini when I had the chance to handle several and the Moonphase is the best in the entire line. However, it’s not really a correct comparison to the Calatrava, Patrimony (I much prefer the Traditionnelle) or the Saxonia that were suggested by OP, since they are more simple time only watches. In fact, the Moonphase would be more expensive than many options of those watches.

A more direct comparison would be other watches in the 3 brands that have some complications. I’m also not a big PP Calatrava but that’s a personal taste thing. When I look at what you get with a VC or Lange with some complications at the same price point as the Cellini Moonphase, I find those options more refined, better in design details and enjoy the much better movement finishing.

I guess different tastes is what makes this hobby interesting

[Patekfinder]

Hey you should also look at a Patek 5119J or 5119R Calatrava. The bezel is truly a marvel, the thinness, I love everything about this watch. It can be purchased in new condition for below what retail was as well. Truly my favorite Calatrava.


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