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Old 29 January 2018, 10:04 PM   #301
tostan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
It could definitely be original or possibly altered by an unscrupulous seller that has figured out a way to tint or replace the lume with a darker color.
when I see a lot of 5513 sold by HQ MILTON (photo example)
the majority are lemon yellow
I hear he's buying them in Hong Kong.
is it possible that naturally tritium can become very yellow.
is there any explanation

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Old 30 January 2018, 12:04 AM   #302
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Natural tritium can indeed become very yellow. It all depends if it has been stored away in darkness, that’s what makes tritium patina. The sun actually lightens the color. Just a natural reaction. Back then the dials and hands were made by different company’s and painted using different batches of tritium, so it’s normal for sometimes the hands to age differently than the dial. But the hands could also be replacements as well if the color is too far off. Just depends. Many people have said or thought that an exorbitant amount of pumpkin colored and extreme yellow colored examples come from the Far East and some believe many to be altered. It’s honestly a case by case basis and have to inspect the watch in person under 10 and 20x magnification to confirm. Jacek of HQ is a stand up guy, the piece above looks fine. I would say the tritium hands on this piece are not original to the watch. The color is too far apart
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Old 30 January 2018, 12:34 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubKing View Post
Natural tritium can indeed become very yellow. It all depends if it has been stored away in darkness, thatís what makes tritium patina. The sun actually lightens the color. Just a natural reaction. Back then the dials and hands were made by different companyís and painted using different batches of tritium, so itís normal for sometimes the hands to age differently than the dial. But the hands could also be replacements as well if the color is too far off. Just depends. Many people have said or thought that an exorbitant amount of pumpkin colored and extreme yellow colored examples come from the Far East and some believe many to be altered. Itís honestly a case by case basis and have to inspect the watch in person under 10 and 20x magnification to confirm. Jacek of HQ is a stand up guy, the piece above looks fine. I would say the tritium hands on this piece are not original to the watch. The color is too far apart

Thank you for your explanations and clarifications
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Old 30 January 2018, 01:35 AM   #304
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The problem with altered watches are that they eventually pass through a trusted source. Bit naive to think a watch is fine just because it passes through ie Jacek. That said I do not think ”patinating” lume is common. Big risk to destroy a perfect dial just to make it stand out a bit. I doubt it is such a business that some people thinks.

Here’s a 5513 I wish I kept..

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Old 30 January 2018, 02:54 AM   #305
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The problem with altered watches are that they eventually pass through a trusted source. Bit naive to think a watch is fine just because it passes through ie Jacek. That said I do not think ”patinating” lume is common. Big risk to destroy a perfect dial just to make it stand out a bit. I doubt it is such a business that some people thinks.

Here’s a 5513 I wish I kept..

Not NaÔve at all Roh, if you were implying my advise was..?

there are reasons one would patinate lume, to cover stains to the plots, or to get hands to match better.. Yes there are silly risks involved but it's being done. One HK dealer comes to mind that still does this practice.. But aside from the lume; when it comes to trusted dealers, there is trust.

Dealers can make mistakes and often do. Especially when it comes to a watch they are selling, so it's more personal to the collector buying because he/she plans on keeping the piece, so the collector will look at the said piece with more scrutiny. There they may catch something the dealer didn't.

As stated above; you need to have the watch in hand to determine many of the times..
You cannot always tell from pictures because sellers will always photograph the watches in the best light possible.

I have dealt with Jacek personally, and one time I received a piece that I wasn't completely satisfied with and he took it back no questions asked and provided a full refund.

So in regards to my original advise, I stand by it.

Now if the OP's question was toward a different seller that wasn't well known, my advise would be different.
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Old 30 January 2018, 03:11 AM   #306
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Not NaÔve at all Roh, if you were implying my advise was..?

there are reasons one would patinate lume, to cover stains to the plots, or to get hands to match better.. Yes there are silly risks involved but it's being done. One HK dealer comes to mind that still does this practice.. But aside from the lume; when it comes to trusted dealers, there is trust.

Dealers can make mistakes and often do. Especially when it comes to a watch they are selling, so it's more personal to the collector buying because he/she plans on keeping the piece, so the collector will look at the said piece with more scrutiny.

As stated above; you need to have the watch in hand to determine many of the times..
You cannot always tell from pictures because sellers will always photograph the watches in the best light possible.

I have dealt with Jacek and once, I received a piece that I wasn't completely satisfied with and he took it back no questions asked and provided a full refund.

So in regards to my original advise, I stand by it.

Now if the OP's question was toward a different seller that wasn't well known, my advise would be different.
Weren’t aimed at you at all.

Just highlighting the fact people often think watches are ok just because they come from dealer x, y or z. Watches nowdays travel through so many hands and I know from experience that information get lost in various steps. I know watches that I know had changed parts, relumed hands etc that later found their way to reputable dealers where the watches were described as original, untouched etc. Some work nowdays is almost impossible to detect and thinking dealers only find new, untouched watches is naive. Most watches today are sold and sold again so the only thing to trust is your own knowledge. That said there are better and worse dealers around and Jacek is for sure great. It’s just not a guarantee as I doubt even he can tell sometimes.

For hiding damage you need to relume. To clean a dial is another topic which usually still leave traces. But yes, it happens. I do however think soya, coffee and oven aren’t a common way to make dials more desirable. At least not good dials. Already damaged dials might be touched up but they will still not look perfect just because they got treatment. As for our friend Ben I think his reputation is by far exaggerated. Many times his pics made watches look way more patinated than they actually were in reality. Perhaps some were altered but that creamy leather sofa, lighting and camera set up certainly helped the watches get that strong yellow patina. I also bet that many watches that Ben sold to collectors later found their way to Jacek and other great dealers. It’s just how the market works.

Speaking of Ben; the reason for him getting banned everywhere was not that watches were touched up. He got banned because he couldn’t describe watches properly. He still deals as far as I know and most watches are great. You just need to be able to judge for yourself.
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Old 30 January 2018, 04:15 AM   #307
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Quote:
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Speaking of Ben; the reason for him getting banned everywhere was not that watches were touched up. He got banned because he couldn’t describe watches properly. He still deals as far as I know and most watches are great. You just need to be able to judge for yourself.
Not to hijack the thread ... but I agree about NBTimes. There were only rumors/accusations about Ben's watches. I couldn't find one thread on any forum with a substantiated claim about relumed/altered dials on one of his watches. Not one. He still sells through Instagram, and yes, his watches often have great patina.
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Old 30 January 2018, 05:42 AM   #308
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Werenít aimed at you at all.

Just highlighting the fact people often think watches are ok just because they come from dealer x, y or z. Watches nowdays travel through so many hands and I know from experience that information get lost in various steps. I know watches that I know had changed parts, relumed hands etc that later found their way to reputable dealers where the watches were described as original, untouched etc. Some work nowdays is almost impossible to detect and thinking dealers only find new, untouched watches is naive. Most watches today are sold and sold again so the only thing to trust is your own knowledge. That said there are better and worse dealers around and Jacek is for sure great. Itís just not a guarantee as I doubt even he can tell sometimes.

For hiding damage you need to relume. To clean a dial is another topic which usually still leave traces. But yes, it happens. I do however think soya, coffee and oven arenít a common way to make dials more desirable. At least not good dials. Already damaged dials might be touched up but they will still not look perfect just because they got treatment. As for our friend Ben I think his reputation is by far exaggerated. Many times his pics made watches look way more patinated than they actually were in reality. Perhaps some were altered but that creamy leather sofa, lighting and camera set up certainly helped the watches get that strong yellow patina. I also bet that many watches that Ben sold to collectors later found their way to Jacek and other great dealers. Itís just how the market works.

Speaking of Ben; the reason for him getting banned everywhere was not that watches were touched up. He got banned because he couldnít describe watches properly. He still deals as far as I know and most watches are great. You just need to be able to judge for yourself.
X2. Well put.
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Old 30 January 2018, 06:58 AM   #309
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It should come as no secret that Classic Watch Repair advertises dial work/restoration on their website, which shares the same lume shade of yellow that Ben offered on a lot of his watches. If one of these worked-on watches, like Roh mentions, traveled through so many hands, I imagine it'd be hard to state definitively what alterations took place and by when and whom.

See second pic
http://www.classicwatchrepair.com/en...al-restoration
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Old 30 January 2018, 07:22 AM   #310
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Old 30 January 2018, 10:34 AM   #311
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Thanks to Springer, Roh, Lee and other vintage GMT enthusiasts here, acquired this transitional 16750 6.9m serial. Just a months ago, the seller asked if I wanted to sell it back to him for usd2500 more.


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Old 30 January 2018, 11:00 AM   #312
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Old 31 January 2018, 07:36 AM   #313
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The problem with altered watches are that they eventually pass through a trusted source. Bit naive to think a watch is fine just because it passes through ie Jacek. That said I do not think ĒpatinatingĒ lume is common. Big risk to destroy a perfect dial just to make it stand out a bit. I doubt it is such a business that some people thinks.

Hereís a 5513 I wish I kept..

Reminds me a lot of mine, got it NOS from a EU dealer who sourced from HK.


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Old 31 January 2018, 08:39 AM   #314
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My trusty used and abused 16750.
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Old 31 January 2018, 06:58 PM   #315
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2 different shades same watch

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Old 31 January 2018, 08:33 PM   #316
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on this watch.
the dial is it luminous in the dark ?

Quote:
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Reminds me a lot of mine, got it NOS from a EU dealer who sourced from HK.


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Old 1 February 2018, 07:00 AM   #317
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on this watch.
the dial is it luminous in the dark ?
No.
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Old 14 May 2018, 05:03 AM   #318
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Model 1675, Mark V dial, circa 1977.
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Old 14 May 2018, 12:06 PM   #319
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Old 14 May 2018, 11:14 PM   #320
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Here is some patina.



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Old 14 May 2018, 11:27 PM   #321
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Model 1675, Mark V dial, circa 1977.
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Here is some patina.



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Very nice!
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Old 14 May 2018, 11:32 PM   #322
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Old 14 May 2018, 11:58 PM   #323
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My 16800 matte dial from 82 , but it's more pumpkin than yellow though.
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Old 15 May 2018, 12:04 AM   #324
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Old 15 May 2018, 02:24 AM   #325
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Even subtle yellow lume is very nice, especially when the dial/hands patina matches!
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Old 15 May 2018, 03:29 AM   #326
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Former ingenue beginning to show her age a little...



That ancient gold print, faded black dial with yellow lume is still beautiful. Not bad for a 50 year old. :)
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Old 15 May 2018, 11:39 AM   #327
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Even subtle yellow lume is very nice, especially when the dial/hands patina matches!
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Originally Posted by Xantiagib View Post
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My 16800 matte dial from 82 , but it's more pumpkin than yellow though.
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Former ingenue beginning to show her age a little...



That ancient gold print, faded black dial with yellow lume is still beautiful. Not bad for a 50 year old. :)
Beautiful watches! great thread!
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Old 15 May 2018, 11:55 AM   #328
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Old 15 May 2018, 12:10 PM   #329
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Old 16 May 2018, 07:21 AM   #330
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My patina options

there is something special about nicely aged tritium lume.
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