Official London Olympics Thread

[mtrunner]

Originally Posted by kkwn98

Kindly show me proof. I take it you are referring to the teenage swimmer? A US coach's insinuation of doping does not make it reality.

Until there is proof of doping by the Chinese athletes, what you say is absolute nonsense and highly defamatory.

Yes it may be highly defamatory but her performance is highly suspicious and it isn't just the US coaches insinuation. Just do a quick search on the topic and there are a lot of other people out there wondering how this performance can be legitimate and many many of them questioning the performance are former Olympic swimmers.

A quote in a New York Times Article:

"China has brought uncertainty upon itself. Ye has never tested positive for banned substances. But in the 1980s and ’90s, according to news accounts, more than 50 Chinese swimmers did. Seven were caught by a surprise test at the 1994 Asian Games in Hiroshima, Japan. One swimmer, Yuan Yuan, was caught with 13 vials of human growth hormone at the 1998 world championships in Perth, Australia.

There has long been debate about whether doping in China was state-sponsored or directed by individual coaches. A former chief doctor for the Chinese gymnastics team told The Sydney Morning Herald last week that in the 1980s, it was state-sponsored.

Some say embarrassment over doping scandals led China to scrutinize its athletes more carefully. In any case, the dominance of China’s female swimmers in the mid-1990s has ebbed. China won only one gold medal in swimming at each of the past two Olympics, including the 2008 Beijing Games.

Already, it has won two in London. This follows a recent report by the official Xinhua News Agency that in March, a 16-year-old swimmer named Li Zhesi, a former relay champion, tested positive for the blood-boosting drug EPO. Though Ye’s achievement may once have brought only commemoration, it now comes with questions."

Unfortunately in sports like swimming, cycling and track and field performances that are jaw dropping are questioned. There has been way too many positive tests or ties to doping (affiliations with doctors who are known to have doped athletes etc.) not to question these unreal performances.

And I am so tired of hearing, well she or he didn't fail a drug test. That is just ridiculous. Marion Jones for instance won how many Olympic Medals and it was found latter she was doping the entire time. Look at Cycling. Many cyclist dope for years before finally getting caught. And this list of "clean athletes" that passed drug tests but were later busted is LONG.

[kkwn98]

Originally Posted by mtrunner

Yes it may be highly defamatory but her performance is highly suspicious and it isn't just the US coaches insinuation. Just do a quick search on the topic and there are a lot of other people out there wondering how this performance can be legitimate and many many of them questioning the performance are former Olympic swimmers.

A quoted in a New York Times Article:

"China has brought uncertainty upon itself. Ye has never tested positive for banned substances. But in the 1980s and ’90s, according to news accounts, more than 50 Chinese swimmers did. Seven were caught by a surprise test at the 1994 Asian Games in Hiroshima, Japan. One swimmer, Yuan Yuan, was caught with 13 vials of human growth hormone at the 1998 world championships in Perth, Australia.

There has long been debate about whether doping in China was state-sponsored or directed by individual coaches. A former chief doctor for the Chinese gymnastics team told The Sydney Morning Herald last week that in the 1980s, it was state-sponsored.

Some say embarrassment over doping scandals led China to scrutinize its athletes more carefully. In any case, the dominance of China’s female swimmers in the mid-1990s has ebbed. China won only one gold medal in swimming at each of the past two Olympics, including the 2008 Beijing Games.

Already, it has won two in London. This follows a recent report by the official Xinhua News Agency that in March, a 16-year-old swimmer named Li Zhesi, a former relay champion, tested positive for the blood-boosting drug EPO. Though Ye’s achievement may once have brought only commemoration, it now comes with questions."

Unfortunately in sports like swimming, cycling and track and field performances that are jaw dropping are questioned. There has been way too many positive tests or ties to doping (affiliations with doctors who are known to have doped athletes etc.) not to question these unreal performances.

And I am so tired of hearing, well she or he didn't fail a drug test. That is just ridiculous. Marion Jones for instance won how many Olympic Medals and it was found latter she was doping the entire time. And this list of supposedly clean athletes that passed drug tests but were later busted is LONG.

So, let's just forget about proof then, shall we? If there is a remarkable performance, then it must be tainted. Guilty until proven innocent.

You refer to a New York Times article. I look at the BBC and it states "Former swimmers, other Olympic champions and experts have all given their support to Ye."

Until there is proof of doping, then I choose to believe there is no doping and claims to the contrary being down to sour grapes and bad sportsmanship.

[mtrunner]

Originally Posted by kkwn98

So, let's just forget about proof then, shall we? If there is a remarkable performance, then it must be tainted. Guilty until proven innocent.

You refer to a New York Times article. I look at the BBC and it states "Former swimmers, other Olympic champions and experts have all given their support to Ye."

Until there is proof of doping, then I choose to believe there is no doping and claims to the contrary being down to sour grapes and bad sportsmanship.

Of course you can believe that she is clean. Unfortunately I have been around endurance sports all my life as both a competitor and spectator and have seen countless athletes test positive so I usually question all performances that are well out of the ordinary. History has proven that most times these performances are not legit.

By the way there are plenty of people who think her performance was legit but I have read countless people who question it. Here is just one more quote:

Executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association, John Leonard, had this to say regarding Ye's time (via The Guardian):

The one thing I will say is that history in our sport will tell you that every time we see something, and I will put quotation marks around this, 'unbelievable', history shows us that it turns out later on there was doping involved. That last 100m was reminiscent of some old East German swimmers, for people who have been around a while. It was reminiscent of the 400m individual medley by a young Irish woman in Atlanta.

Any time someone has looked like superwoman in the history of our sport they have later been found guilty of doping

[jdc]

Not all swimmers, the Australian Ian Thorpe who is doing a good job with the BBC covering the swimming said for youngsters at this age to improve times dramatically is not uncommon. In other age groups it would raise more questions as performances don't change as much.

[kkwn98]

Originally Posted by mtrunner

Of course you can believe that she is clean. Unfortunately I have been around endurance sports all my life as both a competitor and spectator and have seen countless athletes test positive so I usually question all performances that are well out of the ordinary. History has proven that most times these performances are not legit.

By the way there are plenty of people who think her performance was legit but I have read countless people who question it. Here is just one more quote:

Executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association, John Leonard, had this to say regarding Ye's time (via The Guardian):

The one thing I will say is that history in our sport will tell you that every time we see something, and I will put quotation marks around this, 'unbelievable', history shows us that it turns out later on there was doping involved. That last 100m was reminiscent of some old East German swimmers, for people who have been around a while. It was reminiscent of the 400m individual medley by a young Irish woman in Atlanta.

Any time someone has looked like superwoman in the history of our sport they have later been found guilty of doping

The person you quote above is the US coach who raised this whole thing in the first place.

Originally Posted by mtrunner

And I am so tired of hearing, well she or he didn't fail a drug test. That is just ridiculous. Marion Jones for instance won how many Olympic Medals and it was found latter she was doping the entire time. Look at Cycling. Many cyclist dope for years before finally getting caught. And this list of "clean athletes" that passed drug tests but were later busted is LONG.

Well, I am so tired of allegations, whispers and straight out accusations, without any proof whatsoever. What do you propose then? Again, are we to descend to a "guilty until proven innocent" regime?

[77T]

Originally Posted by mtrunner

Of course you can believe that she is clean. Unfortunately I have been around endurance sports all my life as both a competitor and spectator and have seen countless athletes test positive so I usually question all performances that are well out of the ordinary. History has proven that most times these performances are not legit.

By the way there are plenty of people who think her performance was legit but I have read countless people who question it. Here is just one more quote:

Executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association, John Leonard, had this to say regarding Ye's time (via The Guardian):

The one thing I will say is that history in our sport will tell you that every time we see something, and I will put quotation marks around this, 'unbelievable', history shows us that it turns out later on there was doping involved. That last 100m was reminiscent of some old East German swimmers, for people who have been around a while. It was reminiscent of the 400m individual medley by a young Irish woman in Atlanta.

Any time someone has looked like superwoman in the history of our sport they have later been found guilty of doping

Originally Posted by kkwn98

The person you quote above is the US coach who raised this whole thing in the first place.

Well, I am so tired of allegations, whispers and straight out accusations, without any proof whatsoever. What do you propose then? Again, are we to descend to a "guilty until proven innocent" regime?

Gary: no offense but I have been around endurance sports 40+ years and can assure you every PR is not a cheat.

If one thinks an individual doped, then we should keep it to the facts and not cast aspersions to an entire country.

kkwn98: No doubt we shall wait and see, the performance simply raised eyebrows - but other athletes have had a stellar performance do the same.

Several coaches have backtracked on Chinese doping speculation: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...tion=si_latest

So in the court of public opinion her performance is not widely in doubt.

She was 14 when she did her prior PB - and is now 16. It is not that uncommon to improve dramatically as normal growth hormones kick in. The test results are the test results and that is what stands.

Lastly, her last freestyle length being faster than American men's champion Ryan Lochte...have we considered this could be a red herring? Unless it shows up as his PB, he could have been cruising with a good lead in his race to conserve strength for other upcoming sessions.

[mtrunner]

Originally Posted by 77T

Gary: no offense but I have been around endurance sports 40+ years and can assure you every PR is not a cheat.

If one thinks an individual doped, then we should keep it to the facts and not cast aspersions to an entire country.

kkwn98: No doubt we shall wait and see, the performance simply raised eyebrows - but other athletes have had a stellar performance do the same.

Several coaches have backtracked on Chinese doping speculation: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...tion=si_latest

So in the court of public opinion her performance is not widely in doubt.

She was 14 when she did her prior PB - and is now 16. It is not that uncommon to improve dramatically as normal growth hormones kick in. The test results are the test results and that is what stands.

Lastly, her last freestyle length being faster than American men's champion Ryan Lochte...have we considered this could be a red herring? Unless it shows up as his PB, he could have been cruising with a good lead in his race to conserve strength for other upcoming sessions.

I have said my peace. I did not say she doped I just said her performance is highly questionable and all big performances are now questioned fair or not. I have a couple of friends who just rode the Tour de France and I have talked to them extensively on doping. Unfortunately it is part of endurance sports and when you have had systematic doping by a country it brings even more questions up. It may not be fair but it is reality. There are always going to be two sides, one who think it was a great performance and don't question it and there is another side who are going to be skeptical due to all the doping scandals in the past.

[MoBe]

Haven`t we seen all this nonsense before from some shithole country called East Germany,a regime obsessed with polishing it`s image on the world stage of Olympic competition for the sake political propaganda?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,it`s a duck!

[77T]

I'd really like this thread to avoid getting locked (at least until the Games conclude)

And encourage everyone to keep it within the guidelines

[MoBe]

Originally Posted by 77T

I'd really like this thread to avoid getting locked (at least until the Games conclude)

And encourage everyone to keep it within the guidelines

Let`s hope there are no former East Germans lurking on this thread.

[dalip]

Originally Posted by MoBe

Haven`t we seen all this nonsense before from some shithole country called East Germany,a regime obsessed with polishing it`s image on the world stage of Olympic competition for the sake political propaganda?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,it`s a duck!

You're about to get hit with a set of infractions. Do it again and you'll be out. No question

Any more of this rubbish and this thread will have to be closed.

Seriously. Use some sense.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis

Can we just call them the SHamlympics?

South Korea cheated out in fencing by a stuck clock.

Japan's # 1 gymnast in the world gets a 13.4 and they lose -- no, wait, the judges reconsider -- let's give him a 13.5, so now GB gets dumped from Silver to Bronze, Japan gets Silver, and Ukraine gets.... the shaft.

And, gee, guess what, # 1 on the gold medal count China has athletes that are doping. Color me surprised.

I shoulda quit watching when I learned there are 4 types of table tennis.

Has there been any proof that any Chinese Athletes have tested positive for any drugs yet.If not might I strongly suggest you keep all such suppositions to yourself and not on forum.

[Timber Loftis]

You know, I really just wish I had used the word "ALLEGED." I'm not at the games conducting blood tests and rectal exams, so of course I don't know for certain. Heck, I personally don't care -- I'm not even against doping in sports, and I think it's a fairly ridiculous thing to try to police. I was just stating what I'd read.

I did hear this, though. China, South Korea, Indonesia badminton players were disqualified for trying to throw games.

The federation found the players guilty of "not using one's best efforts to win a match" and "conducting oneself in a manner that is clearly abusive or detrimental to the sport" in matches Tuesday night.

In order to win a more favorable draw, players from the three teams were attempting to throw their matches. The audience booed as it became obvious the players were not exerting themselves as much as they could.

The South Korean appeal was rejected, the Indonesian appeal was withdrawn, and no word on what the Chinese planned to do about the ruling.

And that South Korean fencer was the subject of a related statement I saw:

If you'll remember from a couple days ago, an inconsolable Shin A Lam refused to leave the piste after a judge ruled that time had actually not expired (after it almost definitely had), leading to her opponent scoring another point to win the semifinal match.

Fencing's governing body then offered to award Lam a "special medal" recognizing her "aspiration to win and respect for the rules." In response, Lam promptly told them they could take their special medal and shove it.

"It does not make me feel better because it's not an Olympic medal. I don't accept the result because I believe it was a mistake."

The Korean team filed a protest to no avail, stating that they "can't agree with the decision of the referee."

Oh, and congrats to Bradley Wiggins:

Cyclist Bradley Wiggins made history today, winning the Olympic time trial for his seventh medal, the most in British history.

Wiggins is fresh off becoming the first British rider to win the Tour de France, making for what's been an amazing year for the now legendary cyclist.

[77T]

Did anyone see Spain & USA women's water polo end in a 9-9 tie?
Water wrestling and a ball being tossed around...

[witch watch]

On the subject of the Chinese swimmer and the raising of eyebrows on the performance, I can understand why.

[gulfstream69xr7]

Originally Posted by jdc

Not all swimmers, the Australian Ian Thorpe who is doing a good job with the BBC covering the swimming said for youngsters at this age to improve times dramatically is not uncommon. In other age groups it would raise more questions as performances don't change as much.

My son cut 15 seconds off of his mile track time from 4:35 to 4:20 going from 15 to 16. He cut another 9 seconds to 4:11 going from 16 to 17. A total of 25 seconds in less than two years.

The swimmer could be legit, but China's history is sketchy at best.

[witch watch]

Originally Posted by gulfstream69xr7

China's history is sketchy at best.

Nail. On. Head!

[gulfstream69xr7]

I was in the UK through Sunday. Did not get to see any of the events. The prices were absurd. Hung out in London on Saturday. The city was better than ever.

Friday morning I got to carry one of the Olympic torches. It was being displayed in my hotel. The manager took it out of the case and let us parade around the lobby with it.

He wouldn't let us light it though.

[gulfstream69xr7]

Originally Posted by kkwn98

Kindly show me proof. I take it you are referring to the teenage swimmer? A US coach's insinuation of doping does not make it reality.

Until there is proof of doping by the Chinese athletes, what you say is absolute nonsense and highly defamatory.

"But in the 1980s and '90s, according to news accounts, more than 50 Chinese swimmers have. Seven were caught by a surprise test at the 1994 Asian Games in Hiroshima, Japan. One swimmer, Yuan Yuan, was caught with 13 vials of human growth hormone at the 1998 world championships in Perth, Australia"

"This follows a recent report by the official Xinhua News Agency that in March of this year a 16-year-old swimmer named Li Zhesi, a former relay champion, tested positive for the blood-boosting drug EPO. While Ye's achievement might have once brought only commemoration, it now comes with questions"

They have given every reason to be suspect. I agree that she is innocent until proven otherwise. But state sponsored systematic cheating was Chinese modus operandi for a few decades.

[kkwn98]

Originally Posted by gulfstream69xr7

"But in the 1980s and '90s, according to news accounts, more than 50 Chinese swimmers have. Seven were caught by a surprise test at the 1994 Asian Games in Hiroshima, Japan. One swimmer, Yuan Yuan, was caught with 13 vials of human growth hormone at the 1998 world championships in Perth, Australia"

"This follows a recent report by the official Xinhua News Agency that in March of this year a 16-year-old swimmer named Li Zhesi, a former relay champion, tested positive for the blood-boosting drug EPO. While Ye's achievement might have once brought only commemoration, it now comes with questions"

They have given every reason to be suspect. I agree that she is innocent until proven otherwise. But state sponsored systematic cheating was Chinese modus operandi for a few decades.

Again, I invite you, or anyone else, to show me the proof. Every medal winner at the Olympics is subject to testing.

Have your suspicions if you must. But I would urge you to be fair and don't do a Timber Loftis and just come out and accuse them of doping, before subsequently back tracking.

As for the state sponsored systematic cheating comment, if we go there, how does one know that it's state sponsored and not individual sponsored?

[mtrunner]

Originally Posted by kkwn98

Again, I invite you, or anyone else, to show me the proof. Every medal winner at the Olympics is subject to testing.

Have your suspicions if you must. But I would urge you to be fair and don't do a Timber Loftis and just come out and accuse them of doping, before subsequently back tracking.

As for the state sponsored systematic cheating comment, if we go there, how does one know that it's state sponsored and not individual sponsored?

A Chinese doctor who was involved in the systematic doping of athletes in China has come forward and said Chinese Olympic athletes were doped and it was state sponsored. Athletes often didn't even know what they were being given.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/chinese...4064--oly.html

[steveclocks]

I'll change the subject !
Did you know that Belgium has already one bronze medal
If we get 3 medals in total we are very happy here, nobody expect any more.
We are a modest country after all
Yes we would like a bit more but hey lets see what happens and enjoy the games

[mtrunner]

Originally Posted by steveclocks

I'll change the subject !
Did you know that Belgium has already one bronze medal
If we get 3 medals in total we are very happy here, nobody expect any more.
We are a modest country after all
Yes we would like a bit more but hey lets see what happens and enjoy the games

Belgium may not win a lot of medals but I know one thing, the Belgium women's Olympic field hockey team are some of the cutest ladies in the Olympics!

[steveclocks]

and they got 1 point against China. Which the men hockeyteam did better too. They don't seem to have any luck, they are actually quiet good you know!
Our ladies team qualified on the last minute for the Olympics, but they are doing not bad either.
Ah, aren't we all Patriots
GO BELGIUM GO

[gulfstream69xr7]

We are a modest country after all

Yes, but you have the best breweries in the world. For that you would win, Gold, Bronze and Silver.

[gulfstream69xr7]

Have your suspicions if you must. But I would urge you to be fair and don't do a Timber Loftis and just come out and accuse them of doping, before subsequently back tracking.

What I said -

"They have given every reason to be suspect. I agree that she is innocent until proven otherwise. But state sponsored systematic cheating was Chinese modus operandi for a few decades"

They have a very long and well known history of doping swimmers. This is a fact. It is not conjecture.

She is innocent until proven guilty. I made that very clear. Nowhere have I accused her of doping. I even went as far as posting age specific athletic improvement in my own child to show how she could have possibly improved that much from 15 to 17 years of age.

Systematic state sponsored cheating has been well established with regards to chinese female swimmers. This is not news. Unlike the US, every aspect of the Chinese olympic program is state run.

No further comment.

[steveclocks]

come on guys next topic please

[dalip]

Originally Posted by padi56

Has there been any proof that any Chinese Athletes have tested positive for any drugs yet.If not might I strongly suggest you keep all such suppositions to yourself and not on forum.

Perhaps some of you need to re-read the above....

Cut out the speculation and especially the generalisations about China and other nations.

We will certainly not allow any political comment here. The next member to make any such statements will be removed without warning.

This is a worldwide forum and the arrogance displayed here by some is not in accordance with our established principles and rules.

if this athlete is found guilty of using drugs then she will be suitably dealt with as I'm sure will the team and those responsible.

But getting into a continued slur on China as a nation is just not on.

[johnbeth]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis

Can we just call them the SHamlympics?

South Korea cheated out in fencing by a stuck clock.

Japan's # 1 gymnast in the world gets a 13.4 and they lose -- no, wait, the judges reconsider -- let's give him a 13.5, so now GB gets dumped from Silver to Bronze, Japan gets Silver, and Ukraine gets.... the shaft.

And, gee, guess what, # 1 on the gold medal count China has athletes that are doping. Color me surprised.

I shoulda quit watching when I learned there are 4 types of table tennis.

Originally Posted by witch watch

On the subject of the Chinese swimmer and the raising of eyebrows on the performance, I can understand why.

Originally Posted by gulfstream69xr7

"But in the 1980s and '90s, according to news accounts, more than 50 Chinese swimmers have. Seven were caught by a surprise test at the 1994 Asian Games in Hiroshima, Japan. One swimmer, Yuan Yuan, was caught with 13 vials of human growth hormone at the 1998 world championships in Perth, Australia"

"This follows a recent report by the official Xinhua News Agency that in March of this year a 16-year-old swimmer named Li Zhesi, a former relay champion, tested positive for the blood-boosting drug EPO. While Ye's achievement might have once brought only commemoration, it now comes with questions"

They have given every reason to be suspect. I agree that she is innocent until proven otherwise. But state sponsored systematic cheating was Chinese modus operandi for a few decades.

To all the people quoted above, the Chinese swimmer has passed 4 tests according to FINA. So please stop the Chinese bashing.

"

Ye's clean: swimmer passed four tests in past 12 months, FINA confirms

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/swimm...#ixzz22M57f3Pv

"
We are a watch forum and we should be thanking our lucky stars we have an Open Discussion forum to discuss things other then watches.

[77T]

As some have said - let's change up the topic to what's happening in London now...

Some great competition going on and plenty of sights to see. Any updates from our TRF'ers who are there - or pics of your experience? Like the one below - pretty cool!