when patina is too good to be true

[oldLeatherNeck]

Originally Posted by psv

Everybody has to make up their own mind. I do think it is a fair question to discuss on this forum and there is no point to belittle people seeking answers and/or more information. It is healthy to skeptic in this sport.

Personally I bought one watch from Ben a few years back, an A-series SD16600 with original papers. I was told it was unpolished, it did look curiously mint and later when I sold it I had it reviewed by someone more knowledgable than me in terms of vintage Rolex, and that person said he firmly believed it has been polished. The months after I bought my Sea-Dweller, Ben sold several more Sea-Dwellers. Always "unpolished". Always A-serial. Always with "original punch papers" but never with any other accessories like box, tool + wallet, anchor, box, etc.

I have no proof of tampering, EZ bake ovens, laser welding, etc. It might very well be that he specialize and only buys/sells watches with a certain look because that is what sells.

Regardless, anyone dealing with vintage watches needs to be very cautious and patient.

For me, the amount of hype, excessive price increases, market control by a few individuals, and risk of forgery has pretty much killed my interest in vintage Rolex.

unpolished by HIM, but polished by previous owner . LOL.

Don't be confused UNPOLISHED with NEVER POLISHED

[007Sub]

I know this thread has largely focused on lume, but I've seen some impossibly thick vintage cases coming out of China (read: Laser welding). I think it really comes down to having a very very strong study of what the real vintage case should look like... what the factory chamfers for various years on various watches are supposed to look like. Buyers need to do their homework or ask for help from trusted sellers or collectors that have seen hundreds of pieces (in person already) and can attest to what is and what isn't possible. A lot of times, if its too good to be true, it may be. Minding the source is an important part of the equation.

All said and done, the absolute best practice is to buy a vintage piece from an original owner. Next best thing is a highly trusted seller.

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Now that we have an explanation from both sides would be great if we could publicly see some examples with expert advice of any watches sold by him or advertised by him that have had the attributes mentioned by some.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=391100

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...rare-valuable-

there's more, you just gotta poke around...

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=391100



http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...rare-valuable-



there's more, you just gotta poke around...

Going through the first thread I am as confused as this thread since the buyer there bought the watch already after all the discussions? The other from 2011 seems to have some relevance but when was he banned on VRF and why?

[cruvon]

I still haven't seen examples pointing to doctored lume and laser welded cases which Ben denies and is the subject of the latest allegations by some in this thread.

I have chosen to stay on the fence on this as far as him being on the seller list because am as confused as everyone else here is with both for and against charges leveled. Also, the knowledgeable mods here on rolexforums have so far not found anything wrong with Ben's watches and haven't banned him. Neither have the buyers of his watches complained and Ben has given his side of the story.

That only leaves the anonymous experts who have leveled the allegations and who owe us an explanation. I guess the members who are making the allegations here are only repeating what they heard elsewhere. When I read these allegations, no one seems to explain with evidence how they technically came to that conclusion of doctored lume or laser welded cases; which has the potential of making this hobby quite tasteless. I think the community deserves to know the technical details and see the evidence when there are allegations leveled. I am sure it's not rocket science for everyday collectors like us to understand any presented evidence if exists and is in the interest of all collectors and the hobby? Otherwise the day won't be far when every vintage watch will be the subject of ridicule!

[polarinda]

Originally Posted by cruvon

I still haven't seen examples pointing to doctored lume and laser welded cases which Ben denies and is the subject of the latest allegations by some in this thread.

I have chosen to stay on the fence on this as far as him being on the seller list because am as confused as everyone else here is with both for and against charges leveled. Also, the knowledgeable mods here on rolexforums have so far not found anything wrong with Ben's watches and haven't banned him. Neither have the buyers of his watches complained and Ben has given his side of the story.

That only leaves the anonymous experts who have leveled the allegations and who owe us an explanation. I guess the members who are making the allegations here are only repeating what they heard elsewhere. When I read these allegations, no one seems to explain with evidence how they technically came to that conclusion of doctored lume or laser welded cases; which has the potential of making this hobby quite tasteless. I think the community deserves to know the technical details and see the evidence when there are allegations leveled. I am sure it's not rocket science for everyday collectors like us to understand any presented evidence if exists and is in the interest of all collectors and the hobby? Otherwise the day won't be far when every vintage watch will be the subject of ridicule!

I dont see anyone pointing out directly that the lumes are fake or doctored. Just suspicion based on the large number of near perfect patina coming from the same source? Me included. I hope being suspicious is not a sin here. Everytime a watch is being posted for opinions...it arises from suspicion.
Myself...i just wanna know how to identify natural patina.

Vincent65 said he has resources to identify such in his first post here but when i ask him to share, he did not respond. Wonder why?

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by polarinda

I dont see anyone pointing out directly that the lumes are fake or doctored. Just suspicion based on the large number of near perfect patina coming from the same source? Me included. I hope being suspicious is not a sin here. Everytime a watch is being posted for opinions...it arises from suspicion.
Myself...i just wanna know how to identify natural patina.

Vincent65 said he has resources to identify such in his first post here but when i ask him to share, he did not respond. Wonder why?

I really was done with this absurd waste of time, which is why I didn't answer your ridiculous, unfounded demands for me to provide you with some sort of explanation about my very simple and straight-forward post, in response to your very ill-advised and similarly accusatory thread. But, I feel I have to respond to this as you're now putting words into my mouth, which I will not tolerate.

First of all: I never said "I have the resources to identify natural patina'. Show me where I typed that.

Read my post again - carefully - and understand it. Here it is, verbatim, to save you trawling back through this diatribe:

Geez... here we go again.

"Is the a way to tell if they are natural?"

Yes, do some proper research, and make an informed decision.

If you 'don't believe it', don't buy it - simple.

Here's what it means, in case you feel it's remotely ambiguous or hard to grasp: educate yourself through proper research and make up your own mind. Believe what you see, or not. Buy it, or not. Nothing more, nothing less. No claim that I have some exclusive, secret scientific method to determine the authenticity of patination on ancient tritium dial indices or hands, so you really need not 'wonder' any more about that, because you made an erroneous assumption based on your own misunderstanding of my clear, concise and direct post. That's it - you stand corrected.

Secondly: you started this thread with one particular seller in mind, as is abundantly clear from your first post, but you thought it best (for you) not to directly name him. You knew very well that with your direct and accusatory thread title - and first post - that some people would try to 'guess' and suggest to whom you are referring (so doing the naming for you), which they gladly did, indirectly, and you did not deny or correct them as to the identity of said 'online seller'. In fact, you confirmed it with an approval of someone else's 'jokey' suggestion as to their identity. You raise the spectre of 'suspicion' (your word) based on your own doubts (which you are entitled to, of course), and then, laughably, you tried to back-track.

As a convenient reminder, here are just a select few of your posts again, in sequence, for clarity:


when patina is too good to be true

*
There's an online seller selling vintage rolexes and every one i see has perfect patina.
Question is...could this patina be added on with "brush paint" or other methods?

Is the a way to tell if they are natural?

I havent bought from the seller yet because seriously ...i have not believed in those patina yet.

*
Quote:
Originally Posted by wesley crusher View Post
lol!

Nice one, mon.

+1


*
A 16610 rarely has hands that match the patina on the markers or pearl.
He used to have one with all of that bearing the same shade and intensity. Thats what stopped me from buying.
Have pmed a few here asking the source. Please deal at your own discretion.


*
Im not slandering. I raised a question about the near perfect patina in every vintage watch i see from him...and asked how to identify naturally occuring patina from sped up ones.
But i was told to not buy if not comfortable...which i agree...and will do so.

You are all free to make your own judgement...and for the record..i have not openly said without reservations that they are fake or otherwise...just doubts which hopefully someone in the know will clear up.
I hope it's not against the law to doubt someone in a watch forum.


*
Thx cru...
Maybe it's time we all make our own informed decisions.
Interestingly my original question about methods to tell original patina from sped up ones is still unanswered...so i guess theres no way to tell in reality and tests that can be performed to tell the difference has not been invented yet.
Interestingly we often see posts of watches from ebay posted here and asked for opinions on authenticity but when it comes to patina, it's unauthenticatable.

*
Thx r4gs for at least answering my question.
Liked i said in my first post..i have yet to believe in those patina that comes in droves from the same seller but as a person/seller(i have emailed him before)..i have no problems and that wasn't my contention in this thread.

Maybe he was lucky and smart in sourcing these pieces.credit to him. He may or may not know the history of individual watches that he sells. We need to evaluate the watches on their own.

Nothing against him..really.

*
Maybe you were on a different channel all these while?
I said i have doubts about his watches. I didnt say he was a crook seller. I didnt even name him publicly. He may or may not have known his sources . Does he know they were modified in anyway with certainty? He didnt say so.
Did he modify them? He answered the forum no. So case closed.
If you wanna help, show us the resources you mention in your first response about detecting artificial patina instead.

*
Share with the forum if you have resources to identify natural patina. Since you are so tuned in.

*
I dont see anyone pointing out directly that the lumes are fake or doctored. Just suspicion based on the large number of near perfect patina coming from the same source? Me included. I hope being suspicious is not a sin here. Everytime a watch is being posted for opinions...it arises from suspicion.
Myself...i just wanna know how to identify natural patina.

Vincent65 said he has resources to identify such in his first post here but when i ask him to share, he did not respond. Wonder why?

It's quite an interesting progression, really. You are perfectly entitled to your suspicions, theories and opinions, like any one else. It pays to be careful, of course. We all agree on that. It's a tricky domain, after all. Skepticism can be a good thing, but only to a point, in my view, especially publicly. Assumptions are another matter altogether. My personal opinion is that this thread was a bad idea.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

i was interested in a watch he has been trying to sell for MORE THAN A YEAR. after asking for some more pictures, i gave him the price i was interested in, which i felt was in line with where this reference is going for on ebay. we arent talking about a 6542 here but a 1970s DJ. upon receiving my price, he sent me a scathing email telling me i was wasting his time and he wouldnt have wasted his time taking pictures.

well, the watch is still unsold and he has lowered the price such that he is now only a few hundred dollars away from my "wasting time" price and it still wont sell.

i also have some other experiences ive heard from several serious collectors regarding laser welding, touched up dials, franken watches. im not going to repeat them here but where there is smoke, there is fire.

Can we please stop spreading anonymous accusations? If the accusations have any merit they should be on the record with some detail, not anonymous and vague. It's irresponsible. People hiding behind anonymity have their own axes to grind, of course, and discrediting the competition is common in all businesses.

This is one man's livelihood we're talking about here, and tons of money spent by watch lovers/collectors over the years. Shedding doubt without backing it up with facts should not be allowed on this forum, IMHO. For example, does anyone have a photo of a case from this seller that is said to be laser welded? I can't find a single photo on any forum, and this is a seller that has sold thousands of vintage watches.

[polarinda]

"Is the a way to tell if they are natural?"

"Yes, do some proper research, and make an informed decision....."

Maybe you shoudn't "yes" to it then. You are assuming that info is in the web somewhere...coming from someone who loathes assumptions?

Not putting words in your mouth..but you did say yes(meaning you know where that info is) and asked me(and others perhaps) to look for answers on our own.

[polarinda]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

I really was done with this absurd waste of time, which is why I didn't answer your ridiculous, unfounded demands for me to provide you with some sort of explanation about my very simple and straight-forward post, in response to your very ill-advised and similarly accusatory thread. But, I feel I have to respond to this as you're now putting words into my mouth, which I will not tolerate.

First of all: I never said "I have the resources to identify natural patina'. Show me where I typed that.

Read my post again - carefully - and understand it. Here it is, verbatim, to save you trawling back through this diatribe:

Geez... here we go again.

"Is the a way to tell if they are natural?"

Yes, do some proper research, and make an informed decision.

If you 'don't believe it', don't buy it - simple.

Here's what it means, in case you feel it's remotely ambiguous or hard to grasp: educate yourself through proper research and make up your own mind. Believe what you see, or not. Buy it, or not. Nothing more, nothing less. No claim that I have some exclusive, secret scientific method to determine the authenticity of patination on ancient tritium dial indices or hands, so you really need not 'wonder' any more about that, because you made an erroneous assumption based on your own misunderstanding of my clear, concise and direct post. That's it - you stand corrected.

Secondly: you started this thread with one particular seller in mind, as is abundantly clear from your first post, but you thought it best (for you) not to directly name him. You knew very well that with your direct and accusatory thread title - and first post - that some people would try to 'guess' and suggest to whom you are referring (so doing the naming for you), which they gladly did, indirectly, and you did not deny or correct them as to the identity of said 'online seller'. In fact, you confirmed it with an approval of someone else's 'jokey' suggestion as to their identity. You raise the spectre of 'suspicion' (your word) based on your own doubts (which you are entitled to, of course), and then, laughably, you tried to back-track.

As a convenient reminder, here are just a select few of your posts again, in sequence, for clarity:


when patina is too good to be true

*
There's an online seller selling vintage rolexes and every one i see has perfect patina.
Question is...could this patina be added on with "brush paint" or other methods?

Is the a way to tell if they are natural?

I havent bought from the seller yet because seriously ...i have not believed in those patina yet.

*
Quote:
Originally Posted by wesley crusher View Post
lol!

Nice one, mon.

+1


*
A 16610 rarely has hands that match the patina on the markers or pearl.
He used to have one with all of that bearing the same shade and intensity. Thats what stopped me from buying.
Have pmed a few here asking the source. Please deal at your own discretion.


*
Im not slandering. I raised a question about the near perfect patina in every vintage watch i see from him...and asked how to identify naturally occuring patina from sped up ones.
But i was told to not buy if not comfortable...which i agree...and will do so.

You are all free to make your own judgement...and for the record..i have not openly said without reservations that they are fake or otherwise...just doubts which hopefully someone in the know will clear up.
I hope it's not against the law to doubt someone in a watch forum.


*
Thx cru...
Maybe it's time we all make our own informed decisions.
Interestingly my original question about methods to tell original patina from sped up ones is still unanswered...so i guess theres no way to tell in reality and tests that can be performed to tell the difference has not been invented yet.
Interestingly we often see posts of watches from ebay posted here and asked for opinions on authenticity but when it comes to patina, it's unauthenticatable.

*
Thx r4gs for at least answering my question.
Liked i said in my first post..i have yet to believe in those patina that comes in droves from the same seller but as a person/seller(i have emailed him before)..i have no problems and that wasn't my contention in this thread.

Maybe he was lucky and smart in sourcing these pieces.credit to him. He may or may not know the history of individual watches that he sells. We need to evaluate the watches on their own.

Nothing against him..really.

*
Maybe you were on a different channel all these while?
I said i have doubts about his watches. I didnt say he was a crook seller. I didnt even name him publicly. He may or may not have known his sources . Does he know they were modified in anyway with certainty? He didnt say so.
Did he modify them? He answered the forum no. So case closed.
If you wanna help, show us the resources you mention in your first response about detecting artificial patina instead.

*
Share with the forum if you have resources to identify natural patina. Since you are so tuned in.

*
I dont see anyone pointing out directly that the lumes are fake or doctored. Just suspicion based on the large number of near perfect patina coming from the same source? Me included. I hope being suspicious is not a sin here. Everytime a watch is being posted for opinions...it arises from suspicion.
Myself...i just wanna know how to identify natural patina.

Vincent65 said he has resources to identify such in his first post here but when i ask him to share, he did not respond. Wonder why?

It's quite an interesting progression, really. You are perfectly entitled to your suspicions, theories and opinions, like any one else. It pays to be careful, of course. We all agree on that. It's a tricky domain, after all. Skepticism can be a good thing, but only to a point, in my view, especially publicly. Assumptions are another matter altogether. My personal opinion is that this thread was a bad idea.

By your post above, anyone who posts a question on a watch from an ebay seller asking for opinions on the dial is directly trying to accuse the seller with regards to his reputation?

Give me a break dude.

So when you reply to such posts by suggesting the hands or markers look dubious you would then be slandering the seller? Really?

Where in the above quotes from me have you found me calling nbtimes a fake seller? Where? I havent bought any watch from him because i suspect the patina may not be natural and ask how to identify them.
I may have indirectly agreed to the identity of the seller in question throughout this thread but have accuse him of nothing.
Interesting progression indeed.

[polarinda]

For the record, i have no qualms about the watch cases. Just not comfortable with the patina.
And if i wanna give a negative feedback on a seller, i will make sure his name is on the title thread.

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Going through the first thread I am as confused as this thread since the buyer there bought the watch already after all the discussions? The other from 2011 seems to have some relevance but when was he banned on VRF and why?

in the first link, people are question if the dial on the watch is real or a fake. they also point out that it is a 1675 with a 16750 caseback, which wasnt mentioned in the ad.

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

in the first link, people are question if the dial on the watch is real or a fake. they also point out that it is a 1675 with a 16750 caseback, which wasnt mentioned in the ad.

saw you mention the below on that thread link you posted

"jfmiii: we all know who this is from. i will only say to be very careful. if you do a google search, do some digging on VRF, etc, you will find a lot of people question his watches. there is a reason he is banned from selling on VRF. tread carefully."

Can you shed some light on when he was banned from VRF and the reason? When I asked Ben the reason, he said its because of business rivalry without mentioning names and reiterating what he said in his previous mail I posted here with his consent.

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by swish77

Can we please stop spreading anonymous accusations? If the accusations have any merit they should be on the record with some detail, not anonymous and vague. It's irresponsible. People hiding behind anonymity have their own axes to grind, of course, and discrediting the competition is common in all businesses.

This is one man's livelihood we're talking about here, and tons of money spent by watch lovers/collectors over the years. Shedding doubt without backing it up with facts should not be allowed on this forum, IMHO. For example, does anyone have a photo of a case from this seller that is said to be laser welded? I can't find a single photo on any forum, and this is a seller that has sold thousands of vintage watches.

id be happy to discuss my viewpoints with you or anyone else here via PM, but im not going to post the details of private discussions ive had with TRF or VRF forum members.

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

id be happy to discuss my viewpoints with you or anyone else here via PM, but im not going to post the details of private discussions ive had with TRF or VRF forum members.

I too am happy to get the reasons via pm from you but if its something serious and since you've made the allegations publicly, why not share the reasons with everyone publicly in this thread with the consent of those making the allegations? Or atleast ask the concerned people to share it here? I think that would be more fair on everyone tuned into this soap opera thread!

[QueueCumber]

I've seen a few pieces Ben has posted with less than perfect lume and patina on his website and on IG and via Whatsapp. Also, I have seen pieces with crazed dials and missing lume, albeit rare pieces potentially making the purchase worthwhile to some people because of the rarity.

Do these pieces stay on his site? No.

Can you see the imperfections well on IG. No. But, that is also a fault of the medium. This is why I ask for better pictures via Whatsapp and thoroughly grill him about crazing, discoloration, lume originality, etc., and have a non-dealer expert or two look at the piece if I am interested.

For me the problem is more the pricing on his pieces than anything else. They aren't in line with the quality for me. The pricing tends to be 1.75 times higher than I would expect based on similar pieces here in the states available within the same one month period. This is not a problem that is unique to him though. Other Hong Kong and European dealers/stores are charging similar rates it seems on pieces that are in poor condition. They don't end up selling the pieces and just seem to pass them around from dealer to dealer, much like what also seems to happen here when a piece is marked too high for the private sector (read as "non-auction market") and doesn't sell.

Sure a piece sells at auction for $150k at hammer and then ends up being $183k with Buyer's Premiums, but if I understand it correctly, the seller who put the item up to auction, ends up with 10% less than the hammer price after paying their commission to the auction house (So they end up with $135k on a piece which the buyer paid $183k). I'm sure it behooves a dealer to offer a potential seller the actual hammer price while selling the person on the 10% they won't lose by gambling at auction (as the seller may actually get a lot less even than the last auction's hammer prices depending on several factors or higher based on the trend towards higher prices for certain vintage watches), and then raise the price a certain percentage that is well enough below the Buyer's Premium price to keep buyers from just waiting for the piece to come up at an auction instead of buying from the dealer. Of course, this is all mental masturbation on my part. My above example is based on the Antiquorum Cousteau's son's PPDRSD.

Man those auction houses make out like bandits though....

[MitchSteel]

You know guys, this hobby, sure is turning into a shit show.

[QueueCumber]

Originally Posted by MitchSteel

You know guys, this hobby, sure is turning into a shit show.

It will only get worse as the increasing amounts of collectors hoard more and decent pieces become harder to find...

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by MitchSteel

You know guys, this hobby, sure is turning into a shit show.

One of the many reasons I went to a 5 digit reference. Less BS and solid timepieces with tool watch history.

[sennheiserz]

Originally Posted by MitchSteel

You know guys, this hobby, sure is turning into a shit show.

Amen.

I've been burned on several of the last pieces I've bought from highly trusted people, not even necessarily by their fault, and at some point that beautiful patina outweights the feelings that I'm going to discover some issue with the pieces I currently own and assume are correct.

Ugh.

Color matching done using acrylic paint that falls out, redone cases, movements in bad shape being passed around the community. My favorite is when I ask for an opinion on a piece and all the dealers I talk to 'remember' that piece and say to stay away.

The piece of mind from my SubC ND is truly a feature at this point, knowing everything came from the factory, and was touched by the watch manufacturer.

Vintage is definitely not for the faint of heart, I've left it before, and returned like a persistent lover, yet cycle back to disappointment. Knowing that the amount of money I have tied up in them could be cut in half if it turns out something is incorrect or an acrylic crystal falls off and damages the dial is part of the game I guess. I think this hobby was a lot more fun when such serious sums of money weren't on the line, which starts to attract the less scrupulous actors.

/rant

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by sennheiserz

Amen.

I've been burned on several of the last pieces I've bought from highly trusted people, not even necessarily by their fault, and at some point that beautiful patina outweights the feelings that I'm going to discover some issue with the pieces I currently own and assume are correct.

Ugh.

Color matching done using acrylic paint that falls out, redone cases, movements in bad shape being passed around the community. My favorite is when I ask for an opinion on a piece and all the dealers I talk to 'remember' that piece and say to stay away.

The piece of mind from my SubC ND is truly a feature at this point, knowing everything came from the factory, and was touched by the watch manufacturer.

Vintage is definitely not for the faint of heart, I've left it before, and returned like a persistent lover, yet cycle back to disappointment. Knowing that the amount of money I have tied up in them could be cut in half if it turns out something is incorrect or an acrylic crystal falls off and damages the dial is part of the game I guess. I think this hobby was a lot more fun when such serious sums of money weren't on the line, which starts to attract the less scrupulous actors.

/rant

Great post. Lot of angry people in the vintage section, too. Stressful hobby maybe?

[powerfunk]

To those that say, "Where's the evidence? Produce proof or be quiet," well, I strong disagree with that sentiment. As a bitcoin fan, I've seen plenty of scams play out. There are always red flags, and there are always people that say "there's no proof of a scam." Guess what; you'll never have proof of a scam until it's too late.

Maybe Ben is just that good at sourcing nice patina dials, or maybe something fishy is going on. Either way, I think it's important to be able to say, "Hey, is anyone suspicious of this guy?" and have an honest conversation whether or not we have irrefutable forensic evidence of wrongdoing.

It would've been interesting if Ben had explained that he painstakingly sources matching period-correct hands, or he wholesales watches without perfect hands, or he simply ignores watches without heavy matching patina. Instead he just privately messaged a member saying that he's never sold a watch that's been touched in any way, ever. OK then. Choosing not to respond to a huge public thread questioning his integrity is certainly his prerogative.

[Alex The Watch Guy]

Originally Posted by sennheiserz

Amen.

I've been burned on several of the last pieces I've bought from highly trusted people, not even necessarily by their fault, and at some point that beautiful patina outweights the feelings that I'm going to discover some issue with the pieces I currently own and assume are correct.

Ugh.

Color matching done using acrylic paint that falls out, redone cases, movements in bad shape being passed around the community. My favorite is when I ask for an opinion on a piece and all the dealers I talk to 'remember' that piece and say to stay away.

The piece of mind from my SubC ND is truly a feature at this point, knowing everything came from the factory, and was touched by the watch manufacturer.

Vintage is definitely not for the faint of heart, I've left it before, and returned like a persistent lover, yet cycle back to disappointment. Knowing that the amount of money I have tied up in them could be cut in half if it turns out something is incorrect or an acrylic crystal falls off and damages the dial is part of the game I guess. I think this hobby was a lot more fun when such serious sums of money weren't on the line, which starts to attract the less scrupulous actors.

/rant

Ditto for me. As with any big investment you have to go in with eyes wide open. Threads like this leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth specially when someone is being tried in the court of public opinion without any evidence. This is indeed a s*** show. Let's all move on......

[zederhoff]

"So, if she weighs the same as a duck, then she's made of wood. And therefore... A WITCH!
Yeah - Burn her"

Monty Python and the holy grail

[MitchSteel]

I'm actually considering moving on.....on, and away from watches, period.
I don't know what's going on with this market, but it's becoming more and more difficult to deal with people.Ive been collecting watches for a number of years,buying, selling,and so on, with out any issues.As of late,the amount of scammers is unbelievable.No one trusts each other any more, that is the really shitty truth.Nothing wrong with being cautious, but, people been taken for rides way too many times and they lose trust in seller, or they assume things are going to go south.What a shame this hobby has become, but like anything involving large sums of money, some dickless piece of shit will try to screw you out if it.Just boils my blood.Rant over.

[mike]

Originally Posted by MitchSteel

I'm actually considering moving on.....on, and away from watches, period.
I don't know what's going on with this market, but it's becoming more and more difficult to deal with people.Ive been collecting watches for a number of years,buying, selling,and so on, with out any issues.As of late,the amount of scammers is unbelievable.No one trusts each other any more, that is the really shitty truth.Nothing wrong with being cautious, but, people been taken for rides way too many times and they lose trust in seller, or they assume things are going to go south.What a shame this hobby has become, but like anything involving large sums of money, some dickless piece of shit will try to screw you out if it.Just boils my blood.Rant over.

Well, it is sad. There was a time when one's honor led the way. Greed has certainly taken it's toll along with all the "experts" we have now.

Sadly many of the good people that deal/delt in this hobby have gone to private arenas or deal in private now. We've lost some much expertise because of it.

I understand and feel your pain.

[newsboy]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

To those that say, "Where's the evidence? Produce proof or be quiet," well, I strong disagree with that sentiment. As a bitcoin fan, I've seen plenty of scams play out. There are always red flags, and there are always people that say "there's no proof of a scam." Guess what; you'll never have proof of a scam until it's too late.

Maybe Ben is just that good at sourcing nice patina dials, or maybe something fishy is going on. Either way, I think it's important to be able to say, "Hey, is anyone suspicious of this guy?" and have an honest conversation whether or not we have irrefutable forensic evidence of wrongdoing.

It would've been interesting if Ben had explained that he painstakingly sources matching period-correct hands, or he wholesales watches without perfect hands, or he simply ignores watches without heavy matching patina. Instead he just privately messaged a member saying that he's never sold a watch that's been touched in any way, ever. OK then. Choosing not to respond to a huge public thread questioning his integrity is certainly his prerogative.

It wouldn't surprise me if Ben doesn't want to reply publicly as it looks likes he's already been found guilty by some of the forum members.

[subtona]

so conclusion, not about Ben, just in the interest of Vintage watches in general.

if a vintage watch has been altered outside its normally developing patina, case and or dial…

would any/all agree that it is more a custom watch than a vintage watch?

i would conclude more like a Bamford product for example, with the exception that a Bamford watch has an imho higher expectation of quality, consistency and of course disclosure.




ps i would like to say thanks to the OP for raising the question, i think it is a useful and educational discussion. the conclusion about the seller in question remains for each individual to decide. in pictures Bens watches look great, beyond that i have had zero interactions with Ben.

also as some members have said, the pitfalls of vintage are the reason i am not interested in pursuing them.

i would add that my personal E serial submariner with tritium lume was altered twice (dial & bezel insert) by RSCNY, although original parts were used, they were not the original specifications that the watch was born with. point is that it was my personal watch since brand new and even that didn't pass the test for originality imho. i sold it as for me, it no longer represented the original purchase i had made.

[newsboy]

Originally Posted by subtona

so conclusion, not about Ben, just in the interest of Vintage watches in general.

if a vintage watch has been altered outside its normally developing patina, case and or dial…

would any/all agree that it is more a custom watch than a vintage watch?

i would conclude more like a Bamford product for example, with the exception that a Bamford watch has an imho higher expectation of quality, consistency and of course disclosure.

No

[MitchSteel]

Couldn't answer your question,Gus.Franken/Custom/altered, whatever ones opinion is,my opinion, I've stated clearly in my previous posts.
But I can say this, heavy patina,"unpolished " cases, seems to be the latest flavour of the month.What ever the trend is, people will buy, and sellers will capitalize on it.There are a lot more people out there with money than brains.
In no way am I trying to point fingers here at the earlier mentioned seller, I simply don't have enough evidence to support my theory
Sellers will sell, people will buy, scammers will scam, Hakuna Matata.