Scammer Alert: ThePunisherXIX watchaddict1919@libero.it

[Lonestar19]

Hi All (similar topic on VRF, RF and OF... the more the merrier)

Who:
ThePunisherXIX (user handle on the forums)
watchaddict1919@libero.it
Other possible names / related people
- Giorgio (this is what he signs with) Pignataro (this is the last name on the package I received) - 70026 Modugno - Italy. The full address I have is actually returning a funny on google maps... can share details if needed.
- Account owner: Floro Palma - bank account: IT75 P076 0104 0000 0104 7846 579 (this is where I sent my money to)


I will keep it short as this started early december 2020. I will also keep it as factual as possible so you make up your own mind. All VRF PM's/Emails available if someone wants to double-check.

What:
This blue SF insert FS on VRF here:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/viewtopic.php?p=597404#p597404$
A couple of uploaded pics from the ad in case the original post disappears :






How much:
We agreed on 1000EUR shipped (10% down vs. asked 1100EUR).

When:
December 2020. Agreed on December 8th. Paid by wire by me on December 9th . Money arrived December 11th.

What happened - Part I
- The seller was very reactive pre-paiment, nice and polite and all.
- After a few reminders, the seller provided a tracking number on December 18th, which in the christmas period, in covid-crippled Italy, seemed ok to me. The official printed stamp says December 29th - the seller said he inquired about the issue and the postal services told him christmas+covid+etc. delays. I can buy that...
- Interestingly, I get a PM from another gentleman on VRF who says my name was provided as a reference by ThePunisherXIX... I explain this gentleman than I cannot refer him yet as I have yet to receive my package. After a couple of PM's back and forth, he wishes me luck as he thinks ThePunisherXIX is a scammer.
- Package received on January 11th, actually decently quick from the 29th... much slower vs. 18th but still acceptable, italy, covid, christmas, etc.

What happened - Part II
- This is where it gets juicy. In the package, I find this, which we will all agree is not what I paid for...



- I instantly ping the seller on January 11th via VRF PM. No answer.
- I then try email on January 14th, the seller apologies replies there probably was a confusion and he swapped two packages. My blue one went somewhere else. He apologizes and says he will chase it and make both buyers whole and he will ship me the blue one as soon as he recovers it.
- Then over the course of Jan-Feb-Mar, many "Hey Giorgio, any progress, please update me thanks" emails from my side... and many "Chinese new year / He's away travelling for work / he doesn't answer my emails / I will let you know asap / it should be ok soon" emails back

The unfolding on March 20th:
- On March 20th I sent the following note:
"Ciao Giorgio. I will admit I have lost any hope. Can you please refund my money and I will ship the other insert back as soon after that. Thank you. Paul"
- I got the following answer same day:
"the other insert in basically the same, perfect for a Blue Tudor, correct Mark 3 and you not be able to track another for less than 2000 euro, so really it is a great deal on your side. Is passed a lot of time and cannot take it back atm, if you wanted a refund you should have sent it back before friend. And now i’m also moving from Italy to Emirates for business and not be able to take in shipping. "
- I then send another message again on the same day where I explain that I have left him some time instead of not calling out in the open what happened, and that I feel cheated. I also bring forward that I am not a Rolex expert and I cannot sell this on my own as Vintage Rolex is a minefield and don't want to put my name next to it. I also explain that it doesn't have to be a refund, a "new" wire works perfectly with me. I'm also offering to cover the cost to ship to UAE, etc... basically trying to keep every door open.

I haven't gotten an answer back since.

In the meantime, the community kindly helped call out that the insert I wrongly received is a fake.
Here on RF: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=795838
Here on VRF: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...u-t266316.html
(hope I'm not breaking any rules here... apologies in advance if that's the case, please lmk)

Now - the first non-factual bit in that post, my analysis:
- One by one, every element is "borderline" but "possible"
- Multiple delays
- Different banking name and shipping-from address
- Shipping-from address that doesn't quite make google maps happy
- Accidentally swapped packages
- Slow communication after the sale when it was time to make the buyer(s) hole
- Doesn't the other guy who got my blue insert want his grey one, supposedly worth even more?

I guess everyone can make up their own minds, when all brought together, this screams scam to me. Obviously, if these are all mistakes in good faith. The one thing that seals the coffin here is the strange reasons behind the refusal to send money back ("I can't refund it's too late") and receive the insert back ("I am moving abroad I can't take shipping").

I am not much of a Rolex guy, most times I gravitate towards Omega as well as more affordable brands, and I have an immaculate buyer-seller track record on OF (see here https://omegaforums.net/search/15241...estar&o=date&c[node]=10). This unfortunately confirms that Vintage Rolex is a minefield, in case there was any doubt... I am more than happy to keep everyone posted in case this thread encourages the seller to make me whole in the next days, obviously.

all the best and stay safe,
Paul

[Humble michael]

Paul soo sorry to hear about your experience. May I suggest ( also for the benefit of others) that next time refuse to send a wire in advance to anyone you don’t know. I don’t care about references etc . - real simple pay by credit card or pay pal or both- even if you have to pay the discount- cheap insurance. If they make a mistake or don’t perform for whatever reason just dispute the charge - case closed . I know some sellers won’t accept pp or Cc - good for them , plenty of ones who will . When I am the buyer , I must protect myself. Try telling them to send the product to you and you will provide references and pay by wire once you receive the item ! Ha ! And how is that any different than them wanting cash up front. Just mo , james in San Antonio Tx

[Lonestar19]

Originally Posted by james272

Paul soo sorry to hear about your experience. May I suggest ( also for the benefit of others) that next time refuse to send a wire in advance to anyone you don’t know. I don’t care about references etc . - real simple pay by credit card or pay pal or both- even if you have to pay the discount- cheap insurance. If they make a mistake or don’t perform for whatever reason just dispute the charge - case closed . I know some sellers won’t accept pp or Cc - good for them , plenty of ones who will . When I am the buyer , I must protect myself. Try telling them to send the product to you and you will provide references and pay by wire once you receive the item ! Ha ! And how is that any different than them wanting cash up front. Just mo , james in San Antonio Tx

Hi James from the Lone Star State - have fond memories of San Antonio's Riverwalk, what was the name of the jazz club, Landing? Anyway, I digress :)

thanks for your input. Please allow me to disagree about Paypal with this simple example that happened to me a couple of years ago.

Goods paid by paypal, to be delivered by transporter at a private address in France. They were delivered as someone signed the slip... except they never showed up at the place they were supposed to be delivered at. Someone signed, whose signature is unrecognizable vs. expected and got a freebie and stayed silent (or the last mile of the transporter did, or... whatever). Claim opened with Paypal by me, and ruled out against me as, well, "the goods had been delivered and signed". Don't fall for the false sense of security that Paypal seems to provide with the outrageous fee they charge. When the going gets tough they don't give a crap either.

For the record, I only accept bank wires when selling... (transfer)Wise makes wonders. And if someone wants me to ship first and pay after, well, I move to the next buyer... No-one actually ever had the guts to ask for this yet, but you are correct, this is just as asymetrical as the other way around ;)

All the best and stay safe out there y'all

Paul

[1665fan]

Both inserts are fake LOL...

[Humble michael]

Thanks Paul

[Humble michael]

Ps as a seller of course you would , IMO just as nuts as a seller expecting buyer to send a box of 100 dollar bills ( a wire to them) with NO chance of recourse . I don’t know the facts in what happened w you but had you used AMX to pay they immediately will reverse charges . Anyhow I have purchased many timepieces and sold a few but if seller won’t accept AMX , I will simply say no thanks and look elsewhere.
My best example is I purchased a PP timepiece from a well known reputable seller ( buy the seller ) , paid over $60, 000 . Timepiece was missing extra solid gold back. I called them and told them - they said give us 2 weeks and we will get it to you. I said great I will call AMX and dispute $6000 of the charge til I receive it . A miraculous thing happened, the next day they overnighted the missing gold back ! Maybe it was an unintentional mistake , I don’t know or care , but I can assure you , had I sent a wire, I might never have gotten gold back . As a buyer you Must protect yourself , period ! Paul do what you want but all I can tell you is you are out a thousand bucks ( cheap lesson) , like sooo many others who thought they should trust a seller ( they checked out , ha!) and sent them fund with NO recourse. Could have been avoided simply by using AMX ( if you don’t like pay pal , fine) . Look at virtually every buyer who got taken by a seller on this site, show me one who couldn’t have avoided disaster by following this rule , period . Sorry , for me, I don’t play Russian Roulette with my hard earned funds . Sorry for your loss , thanks for response .james in San Antonio Tx.:-)

[GGGMT]

Wire $$ to a basically unknown seller in a foreign country for a sketchy insert? This had less than a 10% chance of working out. It takes two for this stuff to happen: dishonest seller and buyers who whistle past the graveyard. And so the world turns ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lonestar19]

I think this thread is taking an interesting, unexpected turn... The thread isn't about recourse or absence thereof, but the initial scam.

We have a scammer, I'm calling him out, period.

I'm not asking to be lectured on international payments. I have been in the hobby for years, and in other hobbies for decades, that require asking perfect strangers to pay me from foreign countries, or the other way around, hundred of times, as the rare stuff I (often) buy and (sometimes :D) sell often is located in a completely different part of the world.

Once in a while, and actually very rarely all things and amounts of money considered, things get sour. When this happens, I'm calling it out. That's it.

No need to say "don't wire money to a stranger in a foreign country", this actually is the only way I accept to be paid when I'm selling stuff. And this is also the most common way deals are done, there is a world beyond the US or one's domestic market, and you can also check OF which I tend to spend more time on, and get convinced that direct upfront wire is pretty much the standard...

No need to either say "the insert was a fake", as it was actually vetted by one of the resident rockstars of RF here via PM, although we both admitted it was likely chemically aged. I'll let him chime in if he wishes so. In any case, this is a moot point given that it wasn't shipped.

Net, both points are off-topic... this thread is just about highlighting that the seller is a scammer so it can be on everyone's radar screen. I'm not complaining, I'm not asking anyone to comment on it, unless you want to offer your help by tracking the thief, which some people have actually done via PM - thanks, you know who you are - I'm just putting the scammer's name forward. Nothing more nothing less.

all the best everyone
Paul

[richydave99]

Thanks for sharing this with us, hopefully the seller makes whole and do the right thing.