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Old 8 August 2018, 07:01 AM   #31
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I read somewhere the AP white ceramic has a higher hardness rating then the black ceramic is this just a byproduct of the composite change required for the different colour?
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Old 8 August 2018, 10:18 AM   #32
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I thought ceramic watches were scratch proof.....

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Originally Posted by PJ S View Post
The pink eraser won’t do a thing, you’d need the more abrasive blue-grey type, designed for biro pen ink removal.

Concerns about Brasso are unfounded since the principle abrasive is Kaolin, which is 2-2.5 on the MOHs scale, compared to ZrO2’s 8 – and the scale isn’t linear!

Well, I was suggesting starting with a pencil eraser to aid in rubbing off any transfer residue, if that’s all there is.

Brasso would scare me not because of what it would do to the ceramic, but what a liquid abrasive would do the metal parts if it ran away at all. I’m sure it can be controlled, but again, I would first try less abrasive solutions. But that’s just my cautious nature.
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Old 8 August 2018, 03:04 PM   #33
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Unlikely, but there could be mineral impurities within the work surface that are hard enough to cause scratches.

There are different grades of ceramic hardness...I'm not sure what AP uses for theirs, its probably a well guarded trade secret. But there are a handful of materials which may cause scratches - sapphire crystals are more impervious to scratches than ceramic, where diamond is the only common material which is hard enough.
Audemars states that their ceramic was 7 times harder than steel and 1350 Vickers when they released the black all ceramic diver. The white one that followed had "super ceramic" was 9 times and 1850 Vickers.

You can google and get some statements that arrent official but must be relayed directly from AP:

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If you aren’t aware of the process that goes into finishing ceramic, white and black ceramic actually differ quite a bit. Black ceramic is reinforced with yttrium oxide, making it seven times harder than steel. White ceramic, on the other hand, was reinforced with aluminum oxide giving it a high gloss finish and making it even harder than the black ceramic version and nine times harder than steel.
https://www.watchtime.com/featured/a...hh-collection/
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Old 8 August 2018, 08:22 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomas Eriksson View Post
Audemars states that their ceramic was 7 times harder than steel and 1350 Vickers when they released the black all ceramic diver. The white one that followed had "super ceramic" was 9 times and 1850 Vickers.

You can google and get some statements that arrent official but must be relayed directly from AP:


https://www.watchtime.com/featured/a...hh-collection/


Thanks - very interesting. This is what I was referring to about different types of ceramic, as they are not all created equal. I am hypothesising, but would assume manufacturing specifics such as time, pressure, heat as well as the exact ‘recipe’ formulation would all have an impact on colour and hardness.

For my ceramic kitchen knives from Kyocera, their black ceramic I believe is harder than their white ceramic. So colour isn’t necessarily an indicator of hardness. I don’t know if they also include other trace elements or compounds to control colour or if it’s just the natural colour of the base powder they use.

An interesting area for sure !
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Old 8 August 2018, 08:26 PM   #35
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Had a dinner party at home that went on till the early hours. I was wearing my watch (26405CE) all night and woke up to find three small scratches on the bezel.



I honestly have no idea how I have done it. I was churning away in my bar making cocktails etc but I cant recall banging or scraping the watch into anything at all. And this was all at home.......



The scratches are minor and you really have to catch then in the right sunlight angle to see them but still really annoying. I thought these things were tough as coffin nails but clearly not.



Can the scratches be polished out or is it a case of a full bezel replacement?



Thank you


Just so you know I scratched the ceramic bezel on my 44 within 6 months of buying it. Like you I thought the ceramic couldn’t be damaged, not easily anyway. The new bezel cost £2200.


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Old 8 August 2018, 08:42 PM   #36
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Just so you know I scratched the ceramic bezel on my 44 within 6 months of buying it. Like you I thought the ceramic couldn’t be damaged, not easily anyway. The new bezel cost £2200.


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How did you do it, if you know?
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Old 8 August 2018, 08:50 PM   #37
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On the topic of scratching I haven’t been able to acquires a scratch like the one in this thread but I have a few small chips on my ceramic bezel. So my experience is that the ceramic is scratch proof but brittle.
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Old 8 August 2018, 08:51 PM   #38
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How did you do it, if you know?


Not entirely sure but I think it happened playing squash. I’m more careful now.


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Old 8 August 2018, 10:13 PM   #39
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RSC? With an AP?
That’d be a somewhat odd, if not interesting, conversation!




I’d be 99.9% certain that that’s transfer and not a permanent scratch caused by diamond jewellery.
Sorry meant AP service
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Old 8 August 2018, 10:16 PM   #40
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Thanks - very interesting. This is what I was referring to about different types of ceramic, as they are not all created equal. I am hypothesising, but would assume manufacturing specifics such as time, pressure, heat as well as the exact ‘recipe’ formulation would all have an impact on colour and hardness.

For my ceramic kitchen knives from Kyocera, their black ceramic I believe is harder than their white ceramic. So colour isn’t necessarily an indicator of hardness. I don’t know if they also include other trace elements or compounds to control colour or if it’s just the natural colour of the base powder they use.

An interesting area for sure !
Kyocera use a further process on their black knives – hot-isostatic press – which results in the elevated hardness of the material.
Various additional materials are added to improve certain attributes, one of the principle ones being opacity, thereby enhancing the gloss level.
Matting is done as a post-process rather than trying to produce a matte product straight from the mould.


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Sorry meant AP service
You’re fine, everyone is prone to the odd Freudian slip.
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Old 9 August 2018, 12:05 AM   #41
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On the topic of scratching I haven’t been able to acquires a scratch like the one in this thread but I have a few small chips on my ceramic bezel. So my experience is that the ceramic is scratch proof but brittle.
Yikes! Would you mind sharing some pictures of that? I suppose it’s much the same as stainless steel or gold in this case, though maybe the chips are fewer and lesser.
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Old 9 August 2018, 12:05 AM   #42
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Not entirely sure but I think it happened playing squash. I’m more careful now.


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Thanks!
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Old 9 August 2018, 04:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ S View Post
Kyocera use a further process on their black knives – hot-isostatic press – which results in the elevated hardness of the material.
Various additional materials are added to improve certain attributes, one of the principle ones being opacity, thereby enhancing the gloss level.
Matting is done as a post-process rather than trying to produce a matte product straight from the mould.

Where does the black or white colour come from - is it from the compound going in, the process applied or something else ?
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Old 9 August 2018, 06:46 AM   #44
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Maybe a glass fiber brush pen would work ??
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Old 11 August 2018, 04:34 AM   #45
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Just so you know I scratched the ceramic bezel on my 44 within 6 months of buying it. Like you I thought the ceramic couldn’t be damaged, not easily anyway. The new bezel cost £2200.


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Thanks. So not cheap. I am going to let AP take a look and hopefully they are not scratches as others have pointed out.

If it needs replacing, I will do it later on. No need now as I can hardly see them - I have to gawp and catch them in the right light etc. To replace for just those would be a waste of money.
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Old 11 August 2018, 04:34 AM   #46
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Even if they were scratches, I am surprised that they cant polish / brush them out....

A little self defeating I would say.
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Old 11 August 2018, 04:37 AM   #47
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Yikes! Would you mind sharing some pictures of that? I suppose it’s much the same as stainless steel or gold in this case, though maybe the chips are fewer and lesser.
Sure thing. I’ll try taking some pics this weekend
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Old 11 August 2018, 06:05 AM   #48
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Good luck getting scratches off. You might want to consider another explanation for your wife though....
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Old 11 August 2018, 10:26 AM   #49
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So I had a small mark on my ceramic bezel of my FC Diver, which just came back from service and APSC didn't even mention it or the replacement and I wasnt going to fix it anyhow. After reading this thread, I decided to try one of the ink erasers on the mark and guess what? It worked! Before and after photos below and link to the eraser I ordered on Amazon.

Eraser: Tombow MONO Sand Eraser (57304) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006CQWCUM..._WUIBBb2XTE0TZ






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Old 11 August 2018, 05:32 PM   #50
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Where does the black or white colour come from - is it from the compound going in, the process applied or something else ?
The base powder is white, so different ones are added to create the desired colour, and in AP’s case, the white has probably had Alumina added to enhance the whiteness, which also raises the hardness a touch more.
Hublot has developed and patented a process which allows them to create vibrant colours — red initially, with yellow/orange in the pipeline, commercially speaking, rather than just a handful at a time.
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Old 11 August 2018, 05:34 PM   #51
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Excellent. Thank you V25V - I have ordered the eraser ! BTW thats a lovely diver you have there.

How much pressure did you apply? Assume you worked with the brushed grain on the bezel?
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Old 11 August 2018, 10:36 PM   #52
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I thought ceramic watches were scratch proof.....

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Originally Posted by ragsk View Post
Excellent. Thank you V25V - I have ordered the eraser ! BTW thats a lovely diver you have there.

How much pressure did you apply? Assume you worked with the brushed grain on the bezel?
Thanks!

I was very gentle with it but based on what PJ has said, which makes sense on the strength of ceramic, I dont think you will do any damage pressing hard. But yes, with the grain and just took my time. Slowly started going away and after several passes and washes in between, gone!


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Old 11 August 2018, 11:50 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V25V View Post
So I had a small mark on my ceramic bezel of my FC Diver, which just came back from service and APSC didn't even mention it or the replacement and I wasnt going to fix it anyhow. After reading this thread, I decided to try one of the ink erasers on the mark and guess what? It worked! Before and after photos below and link to the eraser I ordered on Amazon.

Eraser: Tombow MONO Sand Eraser (57304) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006CQWCUM..._WUIBBb2XTE0TZ






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Interesting...the ceramic bezel finish on your watch looks different from the vertical brushing on the black ceramic diver.
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Old 12 August 2018, 12:09 AM   #54
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Interesting...the ceramic bezel finish on your watch looks different from the vertical brushing on the black ceramic diver.
All ceramic bezel 42s except CE Diver have this rainfall finish as we call it here...
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Old 12 August 2018, 02:29 AM   #55
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All ceramic bezel 42s except CE Diver have this rainfall finish as we call it here...


Yup. You can see some vertical striations at certain angles but certainly very different from the CE bezels.




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Old 12 August 2018, 03:22 AM   #56
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Yup. You can see some vertical striations at certain angles but certainly very different from the CE bezels.




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Love it...

Gutted I slept on that NOS one DavidSW had, only for it to be gone the next day
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Old 13 August 2018, 12:19 AM   #57
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I don’t know about brasso, but I certainly wouldn’t start with brasso. Maybe first try a regular pencil eraser?
I was little hesitant on brasso as well, then I saw the other thread and decided to give it a try. Now the bezel is flawless
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Old 16 August 2018, 06:55 PM   #58
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Used the ink eraser - all three marks gone!!

Thank you
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Old 16 August 2018, 09:05 PM   #59
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Used the ink eraser - all three marks gone!!

Thank you




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Old 18 August 2018, 02:12 AM   #60
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By the way that ink eraser now has its own slot in my watch case

Key accessory for every ceramic AP owner!

Faith in ceramic now fully restored.....wearing watch to club tonight :-)
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